Talk:Thunderbirds (TV series)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 18:51, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to review this - wonder if we can get the article to F.A.B. status? ;-)

Lead

The infobox picture could do with a caption

To be honest, I'd question the need for one. If the image in question were an episode still or a DVD cover, a description would obviously be called for; however, because title screenshots are strongly preferred (and are more or less the standard for series articles, like this one), adding "Thunderbirds title/logo" to the infobox serves (for me, anyway) little purpose. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article is quite lengthy at 74k of prose, so a four paragraph lead sounds about right
"Thunderbirds is a 1960s British science-fiction television series" - do we need to say "1960s" up-front? Granted, it was a cornerstone of 60s culture, but in the next sentence we give the specific production years.
"Two series and thirty-two 50-minute episodes were filmed" - could we pick a consistency between words or numerals (don't mind which) and use that?

To me, "32 50-minute episodes" appears ... odd, somehow. Point 4 of WP:NUMNOTES also states that "adjacent quantities not comparable should usually be in different formats". Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"It follows the exploits of International Rescue" - as "IR" is used as an acronym later, it would be useful to list this as "International Rescue (IR)" on first mention
"Thunderbird fleet" - it seems a little odd having a link half in italics and half not
"hidden island base" - I'd explicitly mention Tracy Island directly; non-fans wouldn't necessarily know what this is
The last paragraph has too many citations and is looking rather bloaty. I appreciate that accolades on Thunderbirds can be considered POV, but these should generally be handled in the body.

I've read through the rest of the article, which on first impressions looks very thorough, in-depth and well referenced. Possibly some of the "reception" soundbites could be trimmed down, but not too much. It will take me a few days to finish the review, but once it's done I think we ought to have a potential featured article candidate in the making. More later. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:51, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Storyline

I think consensus is to redefine acronyms for the first time in the lead outside of the body, so "International Rescue (IR)" should be done for the first instance.
"an American multi-millionaire philanthropist" - suggest "an American multi-millionaire and philanthorpist"?

Such compound uses are not unusual. The book Fifty Key Figures in Science Fiction describes the character as "a multimillionaire ex-astronaut". Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Jeff is a widower" - "He is a widower" should do here
"land-, sea-, air- and space-rescue" - not sure about the dashes
"un-charted island" - best to wikilink Tracy Island directly here (per WP:EASTER) so a reader doesn't have to click on the link to work out what it is
"the criminal known as the "Hood"." - I don't think you need quotes here
Why does "all the rage" link to "buzzword"
The citation for F.A.B. meaning "Fully Advised and Briefed" needs a page number

This reference was already in the article when I started work on it. Since I don't own the book, and since the text immediately before dismisses the suggestion that "FAB" is an initialism, I will probably simply remove this sentence. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The series finale" - missing apostrophe after "series"

According to the article Series finale, unnecessary. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well you learn something new every day! :-D Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Production

There are lot of sentences which start with a clause and don't contain a finite verb until quite late. I've found these difficult to parse. For example, taking the first sentence of "Production" as an example, "Pitched in late 1963, and commissioned by ITC's Lew Grade on the back of the positive response to Stingray, Thunderbirds was the fourth Supermarionation puppet TV series to be made by AP Films (founded by the husband-and-wife duo of Gerry and Sylvia Anderson, with Reg Hill and John Read)" This should really read something more akin to "Thunderbirds was the fourth Supermarionation puppet TV series to be made by AP films, the group founded by Gerry and Sylvia Anderson along with Reg Hill and John Read. It was first pitched in late 1963 and commissioned by ITC's Lew Grade on the back of the positive response to Stingray." This in fact a more general problem throughout the article.
The quotation boxes is a bit too long, and would sit better as being paraphrased. As it is, I think there's too much text being directly copied, and it looks like too much of a copyright violation. Again, this is a general problem throughout the article.
"Co-creator Gerry Anderson's" - don't need the "co-creator", we've just been told he had that role
"last 11 survivors were rescued" - the two book citations here can be simply combined into one. On a more general theme, I don't understand how specifically this incident inspired the theme of Thunderbirds - was it the level of disaster, the effort required to rescue the survivors, or something else?

It relates to the quotation in the box alongside – Anderson's original idea that there should be "dumps around the world with rescue gear standing by" to speed up crisis response (and thus save lives). During pre-production, these "dumps" evolved into rescue aircraft that transport life-saving equipment at supersonic speeds. In conclusion, the existence of IR would have greatly shortened the time necessary to save the Lengede miners. I'll re-word this paragraph to make the connection more explicit. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"the concept for "International Rescue" - any reason this is in italics and spelled out in full, as opposed to "IR" elsewhere?

See my reply three points below. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"He retired with Sylvia to their holiday villa in Portugal, where the couple developed the premise of the 26-episode series, scripted the pilot, and composed a scriptwriters' guide" - why does this sentence need three citations?
"create the characters" - as before, per WP:EASTER, it's not obvious what this links to
"Anderson dropped his working title" - what was the working title (or did I miss it)?

Originally, both the organisation and the series itself were to be titled "International Rescue" (with Thunderbirds 1 to 5 named Rescue 1, Rescue 2, Rescue 3, etc.) Hence the earlier italicisation of "International Rescue" – here, it's the series title. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I think we need to mention International Rescue as being the working title, as non-fans probably will not know this. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that this is now clearer. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The citation to "Thunderbirds: The Making of the Secrets (DVD)" needs an approximate time where the quotation can be found

I've tracked this down. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More later.... Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:13, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Filming

"the seasoned Pattillo and David Elliott" - seasoned according to whom?
"progress was slow:" - should be a semicolon here, not a colon
"budget per episode from £25,000 to £38,000" - worth a conversion to US dollars, perhaps?

Or modern-day pounds? I'll see about inserting Template:Inflation. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This now reads "£25,000 to £38,000 (equivalent to £641,960 in 2014)." - which one of the figures is the £641,960 referring to? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The transition was challenging" - I think this sentence can be split at the point of "since eight episodes"
"an uncredited Tony Barwick, who had impressed with an unsubmitted script" - impressed whom / what?
linking art department as "art" is a bit non-obvious

Voice casting and characters

"they also had the freedom to distribute any supporting parts among themselves on the day" - does this mean that any additional voices were shared between who happened to be around for voiceover work?

I have re-worded this to make it clearer. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an easier phrase to use than "accentual versatility"?
David Graham ... had also served as one of the first Dalek voices for Doctor Who" - far be it to dispute the source, but I thought Roy Skelton did the Dalek voices, or have I got confused somewhere along the way?

Graham had indeed supplied one of two Dalek voices in The Daleks and The Dalek Invasion of Earth. I believe that Skelton wasn't hired until the 1970s. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me - we'll leave it as is then. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"neither was conceived as a central character" - as this sentence is talking about characters already, "neither was conceived as central" is probably sufficient
"The series co-creator" - as Sylvia Anderson has just been mentioned, "She" should suffice here
I'm not sure "laugh at ourselves" needs to be linked
"Cool Britannia" is not wikilinked directly to Cool Britannia - should it be?
"Bringing to life Tin-Tin and Grandma Tracy" - "Bringing to life" sounds like a euphemism (which should be avoided in a GA) - just "Tin-Tin and Grandma Tracy were voiced by" should suffice

Design and effects

art department has already been linked once (though see earlier comment)
Can you explain what a ""mix-and-match" approach to scaling" means?

Explanation added. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More later Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:00, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Puppets

"Heading puppet sculpting was Christine Glanville" - I'm not sure this makes grammatical sense
"22 inches (56 cm) tall (or 1⁄3 human size)" - that makes human size 5'6", but a quick look on google suggests the average male human height is 5"7. I think it might better just to leave out the "1⁄3 human size"
"An essential component" - this probably wants clarifying ie: "of the head"?
I'm not sure the link to Realism (arts) is appropriate here, in this context we're talking about accurate representation of human features, rather than a specific arts genre
"human hair, and cost approximately £30 each" - this could do with a conversion to what that's worth today
"From 1964 to 1966, department's stock" - "the department's stock"
"using rods" - shouldn't have "using" as part of the link

Special effects

Is "gubbins" the right link to use here?

Un-linked, although in the sense of "assorted stuff", it is perhaps understandable why this decorative technique was so named. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Comprising two or more loops of painted canvas" - see comments about grammar problems earlier
I don't think hyper-realist is the right link to use here
"Trim's first duty was to convert Meddings' three-dimensional concepts into plans and elevations" - for readers unfamiliar with technical projection types, it might be worth clarifying a bit what "plans" and "elevations" means in this context
"the plywood FAB 1 cost £2,500 to build in 1964; post-decimalisation, this is equivalent to £30,000" - the link here to decimal day makes no sense
"as supervisors for his film 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)" - "for his 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey" reads better to me

Title sequence

"The title sequence, storyboarded by Gerry Anderson, comprises two parts." - per WP:COMPRISEDOF, "contains two parts" would be better
I'm not sure that Ian Banks' reaction to the explosion at the end fits in this section, which is mainly concerned with factual details

Music

Barry Gray is already linked above
Is "The Thunderbirds March" the correct use of italics here?

Well, since the five Thunderbird machines are specifically two aircraft, two spacecraft and a submarine, the name seems to merit italics. It is, however, potentially distracting. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"A lyrical ending theme ... was ultimately dropped" - this is a bit vague, it might be simpler to state that it was used for the pilot only

The lyrical theme was not used at all. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"David Huckvale identifies Wagnerian homage" .... "He judges the string ostinato" - I think "identifies" and "judges" are a bit over-verbose, can you find a different verb to use?

Cancellation

"In February 1966, it was reported that Grade had been unable to sell Thunderbirds in the United States due to disagreements over timeslots" ... but the prose then goes on to suggest it was because of Grade asking too high a price to sell the series

It seems that two pitches were made – one in February, and the other in July 1966. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"something new" should not link to Captain Scarlet per WP:EASTER - also same problem as earlier with overlong quotation boxes

Broadcast

"acquire the rights to the original TV episodes from PolyGram," - how did PolyGram get hold of the rights from ATV?

This is detailed in the second paragraph of Works based on Thunderbirds#TV adaptations and revival attempts; I'll add a brief explanation. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This was an error. In the early 1990s, the series was still the property of ITC (specifically, its New York branch). Although PolyGram was the home video distributor in the 1980s, it did not acquire full rights to the series until 1995. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "networked" a suitable wikilink in this context

Taking another break - this is going to take a while. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reception

Of all the sections, I think this would benefit the most from being cut down. I would keep the awards, but reduce the number of quotations unless they refer directly to something specific that the series offers.
"In addition, Heffer and others have acknowledged the series' cross-generational appeal" - this sentence looks a bit vague and with four citations it looks WP:REFBLOATy again

The reference to "cross-generational appeal" is intended to lead into the Viner, Hood and Thomas quotations that follow, of which the last ("Its themes ... speak as much to the adult in the child as the child in the adult") is probably the most evocative. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the lengthy paragraph about smoking has due weight. It occupies more or less the same amount of space and sources as the series' cancellation, which just sounds wrong

I have cut this down a bit and may do so further. I feel that the existence of additional sources like this makes a short paragraph on the subject something worthwhile; I'll see if I can balance the content more fairly between Hunt and the Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merchanside

I'd avoid using the Daily Mirror as a source, it's a tabloid.
"The late 1960s additionally saw the release of Thunderbirds, Lady Penelope and Captain Scarlet and Thunderbirds annuals." - would be simpler to say "Thunderbird, Lady Penelope etc... annuals were issued in the late 1960s"
What makes this reference for the 1980s computer game a reliable source? (I have a Your Sinclair Thunderbirds parody mug (in which Scott and Brains conclude Thunderbird 7 is really good for making tea) in the kitchen cupboard but I wouldn't bother mentioning that anywhere on WP)

Unfortunately, sources confirming the existence of this very old video game are thin on the ground – the above is more or less the only one I could find. The sentence may have to be removed. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 22:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have replaced this with a link to GameFAQs, which is published by CBS Interactive. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't there been any other Thunderbirds video games since? I can't believe a version hasn't appeared on at least one of the Wii, Playstation or Xbox

Indeed there have; see Thunderbirds merchandise#Video games. However, to comply with summary style, I'm trying to limit the merchandise overview in the main article to major items and "firsts" (years of the first VHS/DVD/Blu-ray releases; of the first video game, etc.) Super Mario Man ( talk ) 16:22, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Originally I was thinking that it wouldn't go against summary style to just mention the games existence. (eg: an LP may be reissued on CD multiple times but it is still based on the original studio recording, while no code is shared between the Commodore 64 and PS2 Thunderbirds games). However, since there has been no game that obviously leaps out as critically acclaimed and commercially successful, I would simply leave it at mentioning that other games on different platforms have since been released. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Later productions

"Although Frakes' film did not enter production until 2003, plans for such a production had first been announced ten years previously" - I think this sentence needs to go before the previous one.

References, parodies and imitations

I'm struggling to see the link between A Close Shave and Thunderbirds - presumably this is the part where Gromit presses a few buttons on the sidecar and it turns into a plane?

Possibly, but the motorbike "launch sequence" (in the first act of the film) is a much clearer homage. Speaking for myself, I can't recall any obvious references to Thunderbirds in Austin Powers; that's what the source says, though ... Super Mario Man ( talk ) 16:22, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Might just be worth mentioning a few other differences between Terrahawks and Thunderbirds - specifically the use of latex puppets instead of marionettes
"Groups who have written songs inspired by the series" - this is a bit vague, how exactly are the songs tied into the TV show?

I have added the songs referenced by the source. The connections are mostly obvious from the song titles ("Thunderbirds Are Coming Out", etc.) Super Mario Man ( talk ) 21:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

File:ThunderbirdsFAB.jpg could be cropped a bit so the text is more easily visible

I'll probably replace this image with File:Thunderbirds Aldwych.jpg, which is more informative. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 16:22, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1996 FAB featuring MC Parker did a house version on the Thunderbirds theme. The video contains footage from the serie and features Parker as a dj.Noseball (talk) 08:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Noseball: There's a note about that at the end of Works based on Thunderbirds#Music. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 19:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Allright, bad cognition from me, sorry ! Noseball (talk) 09:15, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Summary

I can't think of anything else for the moment. There is a lot of work to do, mainly on the grammar and excessive quotations as I've mentioned earlier; however, there has obviously been a lot of work done already, so I'm happy to put the review on hold for the minute so it can be worked on to reach GA status. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Ritchie333: Thank you for your very detailed review. I'm confident that all the points listed above can be addressed within a week. It's been a few months since I re-read the article in its entirety, so I think that the best approach would be for me to go from one section to the next, implementing the relevant fixes and removing anything that could be deemed extraneous (including some of the quotations).
I share a desire to see the page achieve Featured status; coming after Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons, it would be my second FA. It would be fantastic if – assuming that it can pass at FAC – the article were to be accepted as TFA for 30th September 2015 (the 50th anniversary of the first broadcast of the first episode). Super Mario Man ( talk ) 16:22, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Ritchie333: I've gone through the whole article and more or less everything above seems to me to have been addressed. What do you think of the changes made so far? Super Mario Man ( talk ) 04:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@SuperMarioMan: I've had a quick look through. I haven't checked everything yet but most things do appear to be resolved, so we're making progress. I still think the "Reception" area is too big and needs cutting down. The article size has shrunk from 74K of prose to 67K, so it's moving in the right direction, but I really think we need to trim it a bit more. Remember that this article is going to be the starting point for somebody who may know very little about Thunderbirds so it really is beneficial to pare things down as much as possible. I don't know if he's up for it, but John has just done a good job of copyediting The Who, cutting out some chaff and bringing it down to size, so he might be amenable for doing the same here, as the article is about the same length and detail. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:41, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take another look. Super Mario Man ( talk ) 18:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, it's now down to 64K. I think the extra images that have now been put in the article help the flow. Okay, I think we're now reaching the GA criteria for this article, so I'll pass the review. We got there in the end. "Oh, and Parker?" "Yes, m'lady?" "Well done." Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks! Best of luck with The Who, by the way. Sincerely, Super Mario Man ( talk ) 19:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]