Jump to content

Talk:Thoothukudi violence

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Requested move 14 April 2020

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Thoothukudi massacre → Thoothukudi police firing – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOVTITLE. "Thoothukudi police firing" is more prevalent in reliable sources.

"Massacre" is a loaded term and must not be used unless there is a unanimous consensus that this was indeed a massacre. Similar objections were raised by Sarvagyana guru in the earlier page move but it appears there was no significant participant in the last page move other than AntanO. शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 04:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 14:40, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

no Disagree Already discussed that same issues which is about 2 years old topic. If you want to discuss again, give reasons for already discussed points. Current sources are from pro-Hindu web sites, not neutral page. --AntanO 06:04, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus can change. You absolutely got no idea about WP:RS. These sources are some of the most neutral sources you can find about this subject. Capitals00 (talk) 10:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not an expert on the subject matter, and I will admit that I sometimes find Indian English confusing. For example, it seems common to refer to a killing as an "encounter" in India, which seems a bit absurd to me, and the idea of a "fake encounter" is even more confusing (see this discussion of that issue). This may be a similar instance, where I am not familiar with what "firing" or "violence" means in Indian English. My reaction to "Thoothukudi violence" is that it removes the mention of who killed the 13 people, and also removes the idea that anyone was killed. Is that intentional? —BarrelProof (talk) 18:55, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As per wiki, A massacre is a killing, typically of multiple victims, considered morally unacceptable, especially when perpetrated by a group of political actors against defenseless victims. So, same applied on Thoothukudi massacre by police and Paramilitary forces that control by state government and central government. Armed forces cannot fire without order, which is planed shooting and it is massacre. You can use the term shooting / firing incidents like Christchurch mosque shootings --AntanO 16:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Marad massacre was the killing of eight RSS worker's by a Muslim mob. Wiki has given name massacre for killing of eight workers by a mob. If so, why can you accept the fact of killing people by organized armed forced who used assault rifle? Do you know the procedure of using assault riffle. It is not war. --AntanO 16:33, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They were convicted. However this incident involved violence from two sides. See WP:OSE. Capitals00 (talk) 06:52, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But, one side suffered by killing, not other side. We do not need to suppress the face of massacre. --AntanO 19:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the first move request, references were given to "massacre" too. Validate by the fact and information, not by Google statistics. --AntanO 19:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You may look the first move request and the discussion. Otherwise, we have to copy and paste as bellow: (It was edited by Darouet)
Multiple reliable sources either describe this event as the Thoothukudi massacre or Tuticorin massacre, or quote officials who do so. By contrast, no source uses the phrase "firings," which in English is a term used to describe termination of employment, not killing using firearms:
  • "The massacre in Thoothukudi..." [5]
  • "Thoothukudi massacre is a tragic reminder..." [6]
  • "Tuticorin massacre: Industries can’t grow at the expense of people..." [7]
  • "The massacre in Thoothukudi..." (editorial) [8]
  • "Why No Tweet On Thoothukudi Massacre? Angry People Ask PM Modi..." [9]
  • "Workers across Tamil Nadu Protest against Thoothukudi massacre..." [10]
  • "On Tuticorin, Rahul Gandhi decries 'massacre' of Tamils..." [11]
  • "...black clothes in TN assembly protesting Tuticorin massacre" [12]

--AntanO 19:28, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Who said that "Thoothukudi massacre" is not used by sources? It has been used 272 times per Google News results but that is very low compared to "Thoothukudi violence" which has been used 1950 times. See WP:COMMONNAME. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 05:05, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The first move request was rejected on the basis of above said sources. Though I do have disagreement over the NPOV nature of the sources, let us take one by one of the quoted sources here and see whether they have actually referred to the incident as massacre, esp with WP:Consistency, WP:Recognizability and WP:Precision
  • thenewsminute.com
1. https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/thoothukudi-firing-man-who-gave-orders-shoot-was-posted-nowhere-near-documents-reveal-82555
2. https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/5-months-cbi-files-fir-thoothukudi-firing-police-revenue-officials-booked-92434
3. https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/thoothukudi-firing-inspector-claims-he-gave-shooting-orders-control-crowd-82598
4.https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/rajinikanth-summoned-thoothukudi-firing-probe-committee-117487
I think we can fairly conclude that this 'reliable' source is referring to the incident as Thoothukudi firing and not as massacre.
  • scroll.in
1. https://scroll.in/latest/906690/thoothukudi-firing-autopsies-show-protestors-were-shot-in-the-head-or-chest-reports-reuters
2. https://scroll.in/article/913597/tn-activist-goes-missing-after-accusing-police-of-orchestrating-last-years-thoothukudi-violence
3. https://scroll.in/latest/896093/tamil-nadu-families-of-those-killed-or-injured-in-police-firing-in-thoothukudi-get-government-jobs
4. https://scroll.in/latest/880819/rajinikanth-announces-rs-2-lakh-each-to-kin-of-those-who-died-in-anti-sterlite-protests
5. https://scroll.in/latest/881069/thoothukudi-deaths-explain-the-circumstances-that-led-to-police-firing-madras-hc-tells-state
This 'reliable source' has referred to the incidents 3 times as Thoothukudi firing with the heading of the article and one time within another article and one time as 'Thoothukudi violence' in the title itself.
  • tribuneindia.com
1. Title includes Thoothukudi firing https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/nation/thoothukudi-firing-victims-killed-by-shots-to-head-chest-half-from-behind-autopsy-reports-702950
2. Title inlcludes 'Sterlite firing' and content of report as well https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/nation/sterlite-firing-cbi-registers-case-of-dacoity-robbery-against-tn-police-revenue-officials-690831
3. Content mentions 'police action in which lives were lost' https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/nation/anti-sterlite-protest-internet-services-blocked-in-thoothukudi-in-tn-594248
4. Content of the report mentions 'police firing' https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/nation/tn-challenges-ngt-order-on-sterlite-in-apex-court-707906
5. Content mentions Thoothukudi Violence https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/nation/oppn-sponsored-bandh-against-tuticorin-violence-in-tamil-nadu-594773
I do not see tribune using massacre anymore.
  • madhyamam.com
I wonder how this is a reliable source at all, for an incident in Tamil Nadu. Nevertheless,
1. Title as Thoothukudi violence https://english.madhyamam.com/en/national/2018/may/25/thoothukudi-violence-sc-urgent-listing-matter-may-28
2. Content mentions the incident as firing https://english.madhyamam.com/en/national/2018/may/25/will-close-sterlite-copper-permanently-tamil-nadu-cm-says
3. Content mentions the incident as firing https://english.madhyamam.com/en/national/2018/may/25/anti-sterlite-protest-hc-leaves-it-nhrc-decide-lawyers-plea-probe
  • www.indiatimes.com
Seriously? Reliable source!! Nevertheless
1. Title https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/11-killed-in-police-firing-why-people-in-tuticorin-are-angry-about-expansion-of-copper-plant-345956.html
2. Title https://www.indiatimes.com/entertainment/celebs/rajinikanth-meets-victims-of-thoothukudi-firing-donates-rs-2-lakhs-to-kin-of-deceased-346505.html
3. Title https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/cbi-books-tamil-nadu-police-revenue-officials-for-conspiracy-and-robbery-amid-sterlite-firing-357659.html
*thewire.in
1.Title https://thewire.in/rights/thoothukudi-police-firing-first-anniversary
2. Title https://thewire.in/environment/anti-sterlite-protest
3. Title https://thewire.in/environment/vedanta-sterlite-copper-tuticorin
4. As 'Tuticorin Violence' https://thewire.in/politics/tuticorin-political-state-assembly-disrupted-opposition-dmk
5. As ' Deadly Protests' https://thewire.in/environment/vedanta-groups-copper-plant-to-be-permanently-shut-after-deadly-protests
  • indiatoday.in
1. Title https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/death-toll-in-tuticorin-firing-rises-to-13-tamil-nadu-cuts-power-to-sterlite-plant-1240151-2018-05-24
2. Title https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/tuticorin-death-toll-eps-defends-tamil-nadu-police-action-1240753-2018-05-24
3. Title https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/police-oppose-screening-of-documentary-on-tuticorin-firing-in-chennai-1420487-2018-12-31
4. Title https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/explain-tuticorin-firing-by-june-6-madras-hc-tells-eps-govt-1247682-2018-06-01
5. Title https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/9-dead-in-police-firing-as-anti-sterlite-protests-in-tuticorin-turns-violent-1238700-2018-05-22
  • indablooms
I do not know how is this source reliable than The Hindu or the Times of India etc. Still,
1. Content firing https://indiablooms.com/news-details/N/40252/tamil-nadu-orders-permanent-closure-of-sterlite-plant-in-tuticorin.html
2. Title as police shooting https://indiablooms.com/news-details/N/42060/madras-high-court-orders-cbi-probe-into-tuticorin-police-shooting.html
3. As sterlite plant violence https://indiablooms.com/news-details/N/40204/sc-likely-to-hear-tuticorin-pil-on-monday-centres-asks-for-report-on-sterlite-copper-plant-related-violence-from-tn-govt.html

Hope it is clear that no source - claimed here as reliable till now, about which I have reservations - have used the word 'massacre' to report or refer to the incident, but rather majority of them used the word 'firing' and sometiemes 'violence'. It is clear that as WP:Consistent and WP:Recognizability, Thoothukudi massacre is not a suitable name to the article Edits12pm (talk) 09:39, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:AntanO It has been discussed here, why the sources mentioned by you, one by one, failed to mention the incident as a massacre consistently, there by failing in the criteria WP:Consistency and WP:Precision. The more common names used to refer to the incident by the same sources as you quoted is Thoothukudi Violence. I have given the links above. How hard is it to read those and understand a which is the common name? This is in addition to other reliable sources using Thoothukudi Violence as a common name for the incidents Edits12pm (talk) 04:18, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Don't suppress the fact of massacre. The article is more about killing. Google search is a search not encyclopedia. If pro website write "xyz" that would be more search result. --AntanO 07:24, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • no Disagree The incident Happened in Tamil Nadu, one of the 28 states in the country divided mostly on the basis of language where 90% of the people only speak Tamil language. The incident is known widely and received huge media coverage in Tamil Nadu, more than any other states. Most of the reliable main-stream media outlets in the state reported the incident as "Thoothukudi Massacre" or "Thoothukudi killings" (google translate), see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and "Thoothukudi firing" or "Thoothukudi Shooting", see 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
  1. In Boston Massacre, 5 people were killed after soldiers opened fire into a crowd during a confrontation with a mob. It is a very notable incident and also remains as Boston "Massacre" for more than 15 years.
  2. The Tamil version of Wikipedia still reports this as "2018 Thoothukudi Massacre" till now per WP:COMMONNAME.
  3. The present title is a best match for this article, since wiki defines massacre "as a killing, typically of multiple victims" and firing could also mean "termination of employment" as per the previous talk. - SUN EYE 1 08:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Tamil Wikipedia has no currency on English Wikipedia. शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 06:21, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What is the rational for naming title for Marad massacre and not for this article? WP:COMMONNAME have to be WP:NATURALNESS --AntanO 15:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is only about this article and not any other articles. शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 06:21, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This article's highlight is massacre of 13 civilians. I have clearly mentioned about massacre. Many of you seem unaware of massacre and bias. Therefore, I wanted to give example from other article. When 13 people were killed, you cannot suppress the key point as violence / firing. Maybe, you can rename as Thoothukudi killing which is the highlight of the article. --AntanO 02:07, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some more example for using the term massacre at Category:Massacres in India. --AntanO 02:11, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:AntanO It seems to me the para above is totally WP:OR. 'You' mentioning about massacre is not enough for an encyclopedia, but there should be reliable sources to mention it. As also to name an article, none of these are valid, as what matters is WP:NAMINGCRITERIAEdits12pm (talk) 10:12, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving to "2018 May Thoothukudi Violence"
  • As already noted above that the sources quoted for naming the article aren't consistently using the term massacre, and in all the cases it was a one time usage.
  • Reliable sources have used the term Thoothukudi Violence consistently, as is evident 1, 2,3
  • It also reflects the arson and injuries to people 1
  • It also reflects the events of protest march in spite of prohibitory order and stone pelting against police and govt officers 1stone pelting
So as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA "Thoothukudi Violence" is what best describes the event in multiple reliable sources and is NPOV unlike police firing ( which is not comprehensive, nor precise) and Thoothukudi massacre ( which is highly POV, and not WP:Consistent) Edits12pm (talk) 14:50, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Already reliable sources were given that mentioned the term massacre. Why don't you ignore to answer the question and repeat the same beat? --AntanO 16:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did not ignore. If you see above, you can read how the sources mentioned by you ( though there is a doubt on their reliability) did not support your claim. The same sources consistently used other terms and never massacre other than the few times you have quoted. Please read above and reply.Edits12pm (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are reliable sources mentioned as massacre. If it doubt, tell me how? Again, the article's key point is about massacre of 13 people. Therefore title is well match with the current title. If you suppress, that would be OR and POV. Do you reject there was no massacre? Check some articles at Category:Massacres in India. When there is massacre, that should be title as massacre. BTW, you account seems less than 1 month old and you refer from wiki policy like an old user, I hope you wouldn't sock puppet. --AntanO 03:43, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Massacre is not the common name in reliable sources, or sources quoted by you. It has been demonstrated above. It has also been said which all guidelines the term violated if it used for naming the article. Edits12pm (talk) 04:18, 22 April 2020 (UTC) PS:I have been editing for a while, on and off, with various ids. As part of WP:AGF, I do not assume you have raised fears of sock puppetry, to divert the discussion, and I assure you I am not one. Please see WP:BRANDNEW and WP:DBQ.[reply]
The Guardian is a reliable source and it says mass murder. I don't divert the discussion, and thanks for assuring. Please see WP:ALTACCN --AntanO 06:31, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Guardian headline is
Police in south India accused of mass murder after shooting dead protesters
The Guardian explicitly states about accusation of mass murder, after shooting dead protestors. Again, this discussion is about naming the article as per WP:CRITERIA, and not about whether the content should include accusations of mass murder,found in reliable sources. Further, please check Tuticorin site:theguardian.com and see how commonly the guardian has addressed the incidents as 'deadly protests' and 'deadly campaign' and not as mass murder, here and here. --Edits12pm (talk) 07:05, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Title is based on article. Now you are changing intro part as per your bias tone and suppress the subject who were targeted and by whom. Some more sources: Thoothukudi massacre is a tragic reminder that India is in the grip of a state-corporate nexus, Tuticorin massacre. Do you want more? --AntanO 15:15, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Title is based on WP:NAMINGCRITERIA
Article needs a lot of improvement from its present condition, as there are lot of sources availble for it. As long as it is based on WP:RS, go ahead, WP:BB.
The source quoted is an opinion piece. Please see WP:RSEDITORIAL for including content from opinion pieces ( and hastens to add, it is not about naming criteria).
Please see that massacre is not acceptable as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA as it wont be WP:NPOVNAME. It is a POV to say it is a massacre and WP cannot have a POV name unless it is a common name. All this while, me as well as many above has told already why massacre is not a common name to denote the incidents. Rather many RS have called it shooting, firings and violence. It would be best to decide the article title based on WP:AT
I am closing my discussion here, as AntanO is repeating the same thing; that, some sources mention it - as editorials, opinions and accusations - massacre, and not seeing that it is not a common name. --Edits12pm (talk) 16:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If so you have to change many titles that come with "massacre" including Category:Massacres in India.
Please go ahead and change, if it is POV and not a common name. --Edits12pm (talk) 16:43, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Need to rewrite the introduction

[edit]

The article - whether its title comes out as Thoothukudi Massacre or Thoothukudi Firing or Thoothukudi Violence or Thoothukudi Anti-Sterlite Protests as per the above discussion - covers a lot of content in its body having significance and coverage as per reliable sources. The introduction needs to reflect it. Also the body may be restructured to cover the article more comprehensively without any POV.

The article also gets redirected from Anti-sterlite protests.
Few of the things missing as per reliable sources considering the above are
1. The anti- sterlite protests started were ongoing for many years, on the basis of many reasons - https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/history-sterlite-thoothukudi-story-betrayal-crony-regulators-78481
2. There were widespread rioting, arson, unlawful assembly, torching of vehicles etc - https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/tamil-nadu/2018/may/23/cars-bikes-gutted-as-agitators-go-on-arson-spree-in-thoothukudi-1818348.html
3. There were injuries to both protesters and police personnel https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/victims-with-bleeding-injuries-and-gunshot-wounds-at-thoothukudi-gh/article23962412.ece
4. There were incidents of police firing on May 22 and May 23 in which total of 13 people died. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/sterlite-protest-tuticorin-villagers-accuse-left-outfit-of-inciting-violence/articleshow/64868040.cms?from=mdr
5. Consequences of the violence on May 22 and May 23 which includes
1.Various inquiries conducted by state and civil society organizations 1Judge Inquiry 2. CBI Inquiry 3. Human Rights Commission enquiry4.Civil Society
2 Plight of the relatives of those killed in police firing https://www.deccanherald.com/national/may-22-still-haunts-families-of-sterlite-firing-victims-726607.html
3 Arrests against the protesters on the on going days https://www.news18.com/news/india/thoothukudi-violence-hundreds-of-midnight-arrests-made-without-evidence-says-interim-probe-report-2317025.html
4 Closure of the sterlite plant https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/tamil-nadu-government-orders-permanent-closure-of-sterlite-plant-in-tuticorin/articleshow/64355730.cms?from=mdr
5 Arbitration in various courts https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/supreme-court-verdict-on-sterlite-today/article26301153.ece
Edits12pm (talk) 14:26, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User Edits12pm seems new account in en.wiki, but well aware of wiki guidelines :) --AntanO 16:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If it is so, shall I do a rewrite? Edits12pm (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User Edits12pm changes intro part as per his/her bias tone and suppress the subject who were targeted (killing 13 protesters and injuring dozens of others ) and by whom (when Tamil Nadu Police officers fired ). It seems the user dragged the content as per above move request. I avoid edit war and request admin to restore the page. --AntanO 15:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • That is a content dispute, and not a matter for administrative action. An administrator has no more ability to do what you suggest than any other editor. JBW (talk) 02:29, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All those are properly cited from reliable sources and best tried to maintain NPOV. I would be glad to which particular addition/rewrite is bias and why? Meanwhile, more improvements are also tried to make it an encyclopedia article. I would assume WP:AGF once more, and would suggest to raise the concern here to me first before calling other users. --Edits12pm (talk) 16:30, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Older version too edited from reliable source. By saying/adding reliable source, anyone can do rewriting per their COI. I already discuss above and you don't show good signs. In the page move discussion, each jumps to one point one point and ignores some clarification (don't ask what, but read from first). --AntanO 16:38, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: To the answering admin: hello, and hope you're well! I left this open to kindly request you please close #Requested move 14 April 2020 above. In any case: I've posted on the WikiProject to help resolve this dispute. AntanO, if you suspect socking, take it to WP:SPI. Thank you, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 06:54, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:AntanO there is a lot of scope for improvement for the whole article. I am trying to do. If you have any areas of concern, or any suspected bias for the sources I am referring to please let me know. --Edits12pm (talk) 09:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rewriting the section firing

[edit]

It seems from the plethora of sources, the section is grossly inadequate. I am trying to do a rewrite here User:Edits12pm/sandbox. please do have a look. Thanks!--Edits12pm (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Written till the events of firing - I do not find much sources on actual events of firing. Listing the following sources 1. The New Indian Express 2. DT Next 3.The Hindu 4. Reuters 5. Scroll.in

Any helping hand here? :) AntanO, Aman.kumar.goel, Capitals00 शिव_साहिल BarrelProof Suneye1 Thanks !--Edits12pm (talk) 13:35, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Please point out, how to refer to a citation already used in the article.

@Edits12pm: You are allowed to make edits per WP:BOLD and edits must comply with WP:NPOV. I will be able to review edits anytime soon. If you find anything contentious then you can discuss about it here and I will be reading that too. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 17:20, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Social studies

[edit]

Insident that occur in thoothukudi related to factory in 2018 . . 103.163.248.92 (talk) 12:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Thoothukudi_violence&oldid=1243786970"