Talk:Thomas More/Archive 3

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File:Hans Holbein, the Younger - Sir Thomas More - Google Art Project.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Hans Holbein, the Younger - Sir Thomas More - Google Art Project.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 6, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-07-06. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Thomas More (1478–1535) was an important councillor to Henry VIII of England, humanist, and author of several books, including Utopia. During the English Reformation More was staunchly against the King's separation from the Roman Catholic Church and refused to accept him as Supreme Head of the Church of England. As a result More was imprisoned, convicted of treason, and beheaded. As such, More was canonised by the Catholic Church in 1935 as an early martyr in the schism.Painting: Hans Holbein the Younger

I saw the portrait yesterday and understood why the article (and the other saint-of-the-day, Maria Goretti) fail to meet wikipedia's quality standards. I don't have the time to do all the work needed, especially given the religious politics involved, but did a little to clean up the More article at least. IMHO, the article needs to be cut about 25% -- not only because of the passive constructions (which worsen rather than avoid the religious politics) but also because of the repetition. But then, I'm no philosopher. LOL, sort of. At least cutting the intro brings the TOC into the first screen, as well as enabled me to put the missing cites in the Legacy section.Jweaver28 (talk) 03:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Since More's major works were only published in England after his death, I am moving that scholarly section after that describing his trial and death. Admittedly, that probably will bring the excesses in those sections into focus, but first things first.Jweaver28 (talk) 22:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Campaign against the Reformation

I feel that the performance of John Stokesley could be taken into consideration. Peter Berglar analyzes this matter. Thank you. Gabriel Sozzi (talk) 15:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for a most useful link, Gabriel Sozzi. I hope to be using it shortly in another less contentious section of the article. And at least in theory somebody probably should use it in the 'Campaign against the Reformation' section as well. But it probably won't be me, if only because the unreasonable amount of time and energy and mental stress and distress wasted on the still unresolved dispute in the preceding paragraphs mean that I simply don't dare make any changes to that section at present, and quite likely for the foreseeable future. But once again, thanks. Tlhslobus (talk) 20:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again, Gabriel Sozzi, your source has allowed me to try to improve the encyclopedia, albeit not as I had originally expected. On page 82 Berglar tells us More had no power to harm heretics (which is something I had always thought, having read basically the same thing from I-forget-which other source). So I was intending to use that. But 2 pages later on page 84 Berglar tells us More signed a number of their death sentences - which rather looks like harming them to me. On the other hand, his text also seems to raise doubts about whether he helped create a climate of opinion favouring executions (or at least to turn that into a potentially controversial statement, which seemingly doesn't belong unsourced in the Popular Culture section). As a result I'm now removing most of a sentence I mistakenly wrote in good faith last year, and I'm putting a citation needed request on what's left.Tlhslobus (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Tlhslobus. Hope Berglar's book becomes useful. Thomas More was not a 21th-century tolerant liberal... and perhaps he shared some prejudices of his age. On the other hand, he tried to prevent ″extreme measures″. He was not ″fond of″ persecuting heretics, particularly in light of the many hundreds put to death under Mary I or Elizabeth I over the next few generations. I feel that Berglar tries to show the real Thomas More, and the tensions between his religious and political endeavors. Thomas was a true Renaissance man. Too much emphasis on the alleged nature of ″persecutor of heretics″ may produce some kind of anachronism. (Besides, Stokesley, a difficult, bad-tempered and tactless man, was a real persecutor. He had a long record of trying to root out heresy, and represented the other forces involved in the drama... Berglar is right...). Thank you again. --Gabriel Sozzi (talk) 07:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)