Talk:Thomas Doughty (explorer)

Santa Maria

The vessel 'Santa Maria' mentioned in the article was a Portugese ship (not Spanish); Drake had captured a Spanish vessel of roughly the same size on a previous occasion, and had given the 15-ton Pinnace 'Benedict' to the crew of that ship. On capturing the 'Santa Maria', Drake gave that Spanish vessel to the Portugese crew, retaining her Pilot- Nuno da Silva. The latter was only released in Guatulco/Mexico, and was promptly arrested and questioned by the authorities, who had been informed by some of the Spaniards who had been held captive by Drake that they had seen Da Silva wearing English dress, appearing to be a member of Drake's crew.213.94.144.183 (talk) 00:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Doughty aboard of the 'Swan'

Doughty had initially been given command of the 'Santa Maria', but had accused Drake's brother Thomas of theft. Doughty was subsequently found to be in possession of a ring, a pair of gloves and some coins himself. Strangely, Drake- who at first appeared furious at Doughty's accusation against his brother- allowed himself to be appeased despised this turnaround in fortunes, and gave Doughty the command of his flagship. Shortly afterwards, he send his trumpeter John Brewer on board of the 'Pelican'; after a furious argument between Brewer and Doughty, the latter was transferred to the 'Swan'. Doughty apparently tried to draw the 'Gentlemen' on board of the 'Swan' to his side; the result was that the ship's sailing-master, Gregory, refused to eat with the 'Gentlemen' and moved in with the sailors instead. He then used his position as sailing-master to have the officer's food diverted to the sailor's quarters. After complaining to the ship's commander, Winter, Doughty got involved in another furious argument, this time with Gregory- who told him that if he had any say about the matter, Doughty and his friends would be "...eating the tholes of the boat". His argument with Drake was the third one he got into; on each occasion it came to blows. (Source for both this and the previous comment: John Sugden, "Sir Francis Drake" Simon Schuster New York, ISBN 0671758632 )213.94.144.183 (talk) 00:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Source Evidence about Doughty

Sugden's bio is highly prejudicial, and, like many Drake biographers, he makes up what he doesn't know and repeats old hearsay. It's best to return to the source documents, of which there are few. We have Fletcher's record, Cooke's narrative, bits and snatches from the testimony of Captain John Wynter and the Portuguese navigator Nuno da Silva, and the charges brought against Doughty at the trial. According to Fletcher, the items in Doughty's possession were given to him freely by Portuguese sailors in return for good treatment - a common practice of the time. The issue wasn't that Drake's brother was guilty of theft, but that he broke into the hold against Drake's orders, and the cargo was wine. Wynter was to testify of the "discommodities bred by drink" on the voyage. One of the gentlemen on the voyage, Leonard Vicarye, negotiated the compromise between Doughty and Drake where Drake's brother was given the Mary (under Drake's watchful eye) and Doughty given the Pelican, probably so that neither man would lose face over the argument. Doughty didn't really argue with Brewer...Brewer flaked out so bizarrely that some historians have accused Drake of sending him over to provoke a quarrel with Doughty. It's possible that there was leftover business between the two men from the time when they both were in Christopher Hatton's employ, or that Brewer actually believed Doughty guilty of witchcraft. It's also been suggested that since the whole thing occurred during a cobbey (a form of mariner's roughhousing) and that according to Cooke, Doughty only hit Brewer lightly upon the buttocks, that Brewer objected to being touched by a gentleman he perceived as too "Italianate." The idea that Doughty tried to draw the gentlemen aboard the Swan to his side isn't supported by evidence, for one, because most of the gentlemen were on the Elizabeth. Doughty was, in fact, appealing to the captain of the Swan, Jhon Chester, to take command back from Jhon Sarocold, the ship's master, who had apparently usurped it. Doughty only came to blows with Drake once, another time with Sarocold (not Gregory). Shimere277 (talk) 09:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

and where is any coverage about witchcraft being idea of STUPID people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.11.204 (talk) 08:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

NPOV

I originally wandered across here from stumbling through Drake's wiki page, a lot about him seemed to be very bipolar, and his actions towards this man were most vague hence why I came here to find out more. On reading it it read like original research, opinion, and general narrative from some well learned historian. This is always a good thing, but the problem is I can't take it seriously because it seems to be anti-Drake in many ways that make me, a neutral observer, wonder if there's any evidence backing up these claims or any citations. Idgaf for or against Drake's actions, but the article is just too much for me to through in hopes that someone will find sources, so instead I've opted to NPOV it so hopefully someone more learned in this subject could assist with neutralising the points of view exhibited to something a little more well rounded, or perhaps if there's pro/anti Drake people (if such still exist for a many hundred year old dead dude) maybe they can assist by reinforcing their POV with citations? Just throwing it out there. <3 BaSH PR0MPT (talk) 14:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

NPOV

Added citations, can add more. Could add many more if I were allowed to more richly reference original source documents - really the best way to go since most of what is said about both Drake and Doughty is embellished by the imagination of the biographers. The Drake/Doughty controversy is long and partisan, but the current academic agreement is to place Drake's actions in the context of piracy. I would like to remove the NPOV - what more proof do you want? I do not want to make this article longer than is justified for a general encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimere277 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Given that BaSH PROMPT has been blocked as a vandal should their NPOV be left in place.MidlandLinda (talk) 16:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Presentation and Clarity

Paragraphs contain multiple concepts and/or comparative "he-said-she-said", leaving key points hard to spot (for me at least). EG: in one paragraph (the last paragraph of "Trial and Execution") there are observations about Doughty's request to share communion with Drake, then accounts their meal together. Then buried in the paragraph, whoah! Thomas Doughty is beheaded in 4 words (and it's 1 out of 4 paragraphs devoted to his execution). Then Drake changes the name of his boat. I find this wiki page difficult to wade through. Can it be broken down more discretely?  :) Smittee (talk) 11:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Wilmot referring to Doughty

I don't see the Doughty reference in "Portsmouth's Looking Glass." I do not understand how this six line poem is referring to Doughty. Perhaps in another poem or perhaps I am missing something? 97.95.255.203 (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)