Talk:Theodore Roosevelt desk

Signatures

You will note the article does not mention the tradition of signing the desk. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 03:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 03:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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The Theodore Roosevelt desk in the Truman Oval Office

• ... that the Theodore Roosevelt desk, (pictured) the first desk used by a President in the Oval Office, was described by First Lady Edith Roosevelt as "ugly and inconvenient"? Source: "This is the original West Wing desk"[1] "The desk McKim designed for Roosevelt (which First Lady Edith called “ugly and inconvenient”)" [2].
  • ALT1:... that the Theodore Roosevelt desk (pictured) was described by First Lady Edith Roosevelt as "ugly and inconvenient"? Source: "The desk McKim designed for Roosevelt (which First Lady Edith called “ugly and inconvenient”)" [3].
  • ALT2:... that the Theodore Roosevelt desk (pictured) was the first desk used by a President in the Oval Office?
  • ALT3:... that the Theodore Roosevelt desk (pictured), the first desk used by a President in the Oval Office, survived two fires?
  • ALT4:... that vice presidents sign the Theodore Roosevelt desk (pictured), the first desk used by a President in the Oval Office?
  • ALT5:... that the Theodore Roosevelt desk (pictured), the first desk used by a President in the Oval Office, was described in Parade magazine as being "time-worn, fire-scarred, [and] repainted"?

• Reviewed: Propallene longiceps

5x expanded by Found5dollar (talk). Self-nominated at 23:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC).

QPQ

• Provided

Eligibility

• Assuming article is at 5x now, expansion began 57 edits ago on December 4, 2020
• 15399 characters (2565 words) "readable prose size"

Sourcing

• Every paragraph and the embedded table sourced multiple times

Hook

• Hook is 159 characters, stated in the article, and sourced
• ALT! hook is 102 characters, stated in the article, and sourced

Images

• All images are on Commons, mostly US government images, and free of copyright restrictons

Copyvio check

• Earwig's tool has flagged a large chunk of prose, but in both the source and article is a source quotation from the White House Historical Association (so noted in the article)

Awaiting completion of QPQ. — Maile (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Maile66: Thank you for the review but unfortunately I need to strike the two original hooks as, while IU was looking for more info about the desk's design, I discovered this quote from Edith was actually about her own writing desk (contrary to the cited source).[4] I have fixed the article and added a few new alts above. I'm not sure any more which fact is the most compelling for a hook. Thank you for taking the time to review this!--Found5dollar (talk) 00:52, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Found5dollar: Meh ... even better. I wasn't all that jazzed about Edith's opinion. I really like ALT2 and ALT4. We can leave it up to a promoter. All I'm waiting for to pass this, is the completion of your QPQ review. @Cwmhiraeth: is pretty good about responding to things, so there shouldn't be a long wait on that. — Maile (talk) 00:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

- Everything passes. Good work. Note to promoter - Inauguration Day on Jan 20, 2021 - this would be an ideal lead hook that day. — Maile (talk) 13:39, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Theodore Roosevelt desk in the Truman Oval Office

• I just found the original image and cropped that. Doesn't this look more presidential? Yoninah (talk) 00:29, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• It gives the drapes about 3/4 of the image, and minimizes the desk itself. But I'll leave this up to the promoter to decide. — Maile (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Yoninah: thank you for trying a different crop of the image. I completely understand the desire to make it look more "presidential" for DYK, which this crop does. I'm just worried that this image diminishes the actual desk, for an article about it. Since I would need to switch out your crop with the one above in the article I think the original makes more sense as it focuses on the object the article's about. I'd be ok with a slightly wider crop, but not one quite as wide as you suggest. The desk kind of needs to be at least 50% of the image.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:56, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Found5dollar: you do not need to alter the image in the article. Please feel free to suggest a different crop. Yoninah (talk) 18:11, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: I cropped the original image proposed for this hook. That remains my suggestion unless someone has a better idea.--Found5dollar (talk) 19:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Found5dollar: OK. Are you able to improve the contrast? Yoninah (talk) 20:52, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

The Theodore Roosevelt desk in the Truman Oval Office

• @Yoninah: here is a version with bumped up contrast.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:54, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Found5dollar: Better, thanks! Yoninah (talk) 15:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

images to possibly use

• File:GI Bill signing.jpg
• File:Franklin Roosevelt signing declaration of war against Japan.jpg
• File:Franklin Roosevelt signing declaration of war against Germany.jpg

--Found5dollar (talk) 16:02, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The images are starting to crowd each other on my rather small screen, but if we can find room, I would add one of these. We don't have any of FDR at the desk, and although these images don't show much of the desk itself, they are all historic occasions. I would vote for the Germany war delaration, as I think FDR looks a bit better and the people crowded around him make it look more historic. The GI Bill was certainly important in the US, but less so on a worldwide basis. GA-RT-22 (talk) 16:48, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, with the new break down of the sections the images don't really fit any more. These are just 3 i found that might possibly be useful in a rethink of the images on the page.--Found5dollar (talk) 19:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Theodore Roosevelt desk/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kavyansh.Singh (talk · contribs) 06:07, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Nominator: Found5dollar (talk · contribs) at 03:33, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi @Found5dollar – I would be reviewing this article per Good article criteria. From a quick glan, the article seems well researched and well cited. My general comments about the article would be divided by section, and other suggestions would be separated from the review. Feel free to let me know if you have any concerns. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:07, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Section-wise comments

Overall

• Overall, the article is well written and well cited. It covers almost everything I can think of a desk. Hence, the criteria 3 passes.
• I fixed quite a few curly quotation marks. Please see for other instances of same, and replace them with straight quotation marks.
• No copyvio (except a direct quotation – see comparision)
• I noticed that you have not used Cite web or Cite news templates. It is not a major issue as it isn't required by the criteria.
• @Found5dollar – I am putting this article on hold for you to address the issues. Overall, an excellent and in-depth research was done. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:04, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you for fixing the quotation marks. That is something that I just always miss. I did another close read of the page and it seems like you caught them all.--Found5dollar (talk) 01:22, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Fine – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

• Everything seems fine here. Maybe add a link to Harry S. Truman's presidency in the image caption.
  • Link added.--Found5dollar (talk) 01:22, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• "After briefly using this desk in the Oval Office, John F. Kennedy switched to the Resolute desk and moved the Theodore Roosevelt desk to the Vice President's Ceremonial Office in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building." – The first line already mentions that Vice President's Ceremonial Office is in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.
  • Removed " in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building"--Found5dollar (talk) 01:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, where ..." – Eisenhower Executive Office Building is linked for the second time.
  • Removed link.--Found5dollar (talk) 01:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• " After Nixon resigned, the Theodore Roosevelt desk was ..." → "After Nixon resigned, the desk was"
  • fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 01:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. signed the inside of ..." – Required a grammatical fix.
  • changed sentence to say "Many of past users of the desk have signed their names on the bottom of the center drawer."--Found5dollar (talk) 01:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • It works. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Design and markings

• The prose should be in chronological order. This section mentions Nixon's use of draw before mentioning the 1949 article.
  • Chronological order is not helpful here. To keep it chronological I would need to start talking about signing the desk, then talk about the changes Nixon made to the desk, then continue talking about signing. It makes more sense to keep the physical characteristics of the desk in one paragraph then have a second paragraph about the tradition of signing the drawer.--Found5dollar (talk) 01:33, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Fine. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

History

1902 White House renovation

• "In 1901 Theodore Roosevelt became President of the United States following the assassination of William McKinley." → "In 1901, Vice President Theodore Roosevelt ascended to the presidency, following the assassination of incumbent president William McKinley.
  • changed the sentence to "In 1901, Vice PresidentTheodore Roosevelt became President of the United States following the assassination of incumbent president William McKinley."
    • Seems good to me – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• "The budget for all of the furniture was $10,000 ..." – Add Template:Inflation for $10,000 equivalent to $352,154 in 2023 and $14,054.77 equivalent to $494,944 in 2023.
  • added
• " in the Executive Office Building, now West Wing, ..." – mentioning that Executive office building is now West Wing is repeated.
  • removed the extra "now West Wing"--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Early use and 1929 fire

• ".. during Herbert Hoover's presidency ..." – link
  • link added--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. 8pm ..." – Replace by "8 p.m."
• ".. 10:30 pm ..."" – "10:30 p.m."
  • fixed both.--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. Vice President's Ceremonial Office in the Eisenhower Executive Building ..." – I feel no need to mention that VP ceremonial office is in the Eisenhower Executive Building, as the reader, by now has already read it.
  • removed "in the Eisenhower Executive Building"--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. House so a special ..." – Comma after House
  • added--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. This desk was used by President Hoover for the remainder of his time in office and for all of Franklin D. Roosevelt's tenure ..." – It implied President Hoover used the Theodore Roosevelt desk for remainder of his term, as well as all of FDR's terms. Modify the sentence as "This desk was used by President Hoover for remainder of his term, and by Franklin D. Roosevelt during his presidency". Also, link Presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • done--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• "After Franklin Roosevelt's death the ..." – Comma after death
  • added--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• The JFK library citation from You-Tube needs probably to be replaced.
  • why does it need to be replaced? It is an excerpt of a presentation by White House Curator William G. Allman posted by a presidential library. That seems pretty reliable to me.--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Well, fine then – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Use by Nixon and by vice presidents

• ".. the Theodore Roosevelt desk was moved to the Vice President's Ceremonial Office, in what is now called the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, where ..." – Repetition.
  • wow. didnt realize I said this so many times. fixed.--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. The desk has remained in this building since and used by all vice presidents but one since Johnson in this room." – Which VP hasn't used the desk? Gerald Ford, Spiro Agnew, Hubert Humphrey?
  • the next two sentences explain that Humphrey was the one that didn't use the desk.--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Ok, I missed the Humphrey's part. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• ".. He chose to continue using this room, room 274, as ..." "He continued using room 274, as ..."
  • fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 02:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Timeline

• Could we have a better work than "Tenant"?
  • I've tried many different terms for this but tenant is the one that seems to fit the best. I am totally open to other ideas but what other shorthand is there for "person that used the desk during this time frame"? Occupant? User? Incumbant holder?--Found5dollar (talk) 02:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Let it be what it is. Anyone interested in copy-editing the article would eventually fix it. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• I made some general edits in the table.
  • Thank you for these!--Found5dollar (talk) 02:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • No issues. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Replicas

• No issues here.

Other suggestions

• Suggesting to archive the citations.
  • Totaly open to archiving the references, but that just is not something I ever learned how to do. I'll look into it.--Found5dollar (talk) 02:14, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
    • This was just a suggestion, and could be done even after the review ends. I'll suggest using this tool to archive all references. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Image review

• File:TaftOval1909.jpg – I doubt its copyright status. If you can find a link of it's publication, then add it. If not, the image is probably fine to use. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
• File:Trumanovalofficereplica.jpg – This file is most probably not in Public Domain. Firstly, a source link to Truman Library is not provided. An another image of the same replica Oval Office in the Truman Library is copyrighted (See here) If you really wish to use the Truman Library's replica image, you'll probably have to use black and white images, which are in Public Domain. These are a few which I found. You can find more here.
  • Oval Office replica in the Harry S. Truman Library
  • Reproduction of the Oval Office
  • Oval Office, Truman Library
• All the images have suitable captions, suitably licenced and have ALT text. Hence, criteria 6B passes.
  • @Kavyansh.Singh: I agree that File:Trumanovalofficereplica.jpg was probably copied incorrectly. But what's wrong with File:TaftOval1909.jpg? It was published in the US before 1926, which as far as I know makes it PD. GA-RT-22 (talk) 18:01, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Hi @GA-RT-22 – I just doubted its PD status as I couldn't verify whether it was published before 1926 or not, but anyways, that isn't a major concern. My major concern here is Truman library's replica oval office image. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
• you are very right to question these images. They were in the article before I started updating it and I never gave their copyright a glance. I clarified the source for File:TaftOval1909.jpg on its page as "GearedBull's private collection of memorabilia". File:Trumanovalofficereplica.jpg is very clearly not free to use so I put it up for deletion on commons. I replaced it with a new image that I found licensed correctly on flickr.--Found5dollar (talk) 03:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
  • That works. All images now look fine with proper licencing. I'll comment on the deletion request. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Response to changes

@Kavyansh.Singh: I believe I addressed all of your concerns! please let me know if there is any other issue or question you have. --Found5dollar (talk) 03:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Found5dollar – Thanks for addressing almost everything in a short period of time. I fell this article now meets the criteria, and therefore; I am passing this review, and listing it as a Good Article. Archiving and other minor issues can be addressed afterwards. Honestly, I didn't knew that so much could be written about a desk. I'll strongly encourage you to continue improving the presidential desk articles, and eventually make it a Good Topic. Thanks a lot for you contribution and co-operating during the review. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 04:22, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.