Talk:Thembelihle Local Municipality

Status of Orania

@Desertambition: I'm not going to reinsert the whole "Status of Orania" section which you removed, because I think it is overly long and wordy. However the ambiguous status of Orania and the continuing existence of the representative council is certainly reported in reliable sources independent of Orania promoters. For example this 2016 article in the Mail & Guardian, which reports:

In late 2000 Orania was granted an indefinite reprieve from the system of local government then implemented elsewhere, replacing a transitional post-1994 scheme with the one that is currently in place.

In terms of a settlement to a challenge brought by Orania, its representative council retains its functions and powers until a new agreement is struck. That gives it the only transitional representative council still extant, and makes it formally a holdover from the elaborate arrangements of the democratic transition.

It also leaves the town in legal limbo. But in all the time since that truce was struck, neither the government nor Orania has seen fit to seek to change the arrangement in any way.

or this 2013 book, which states:

The judge saw Orania's case favourably: it was ruled that the dorp could retain the rights they formerly enjoyed, and 'continue to exist as an entity for purposes of negotiations and litigation [and] as [...] provided in Article 38 of the Constitution of the RSA' - and the matter was 'postponed' until the government could organise a 'later adjucation'.

[...]

Today, Orania's status is still frozen, because no such enquiry into the dorp's status was ever launched.

So I'm going to insert a single shorter paragraph on the status of Orania reflecting what these sources say. - htonl (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I do not think it deserves to be on this article. Transitional representative councils were the norm in South Africa from 1994-2000 and Orania is a part of Thembelihle in every real sense from what I can gather from the sources. It is also inaccurate to say they receive no government services as elections are held within the town, presumably by the national government, and it is not a regular town but rather a private entity. Desertambition (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

TRCs were the norm for rural parts of South Africa from 1995 to 2000, yes - the first sentence of my paragraph is not to imply that having a TRC then was special. What is unusual, and therefore worth mentioning, is the continued existence of the TRC in a sort of legal limbo. Orania is indeed geographically part of Thembelihle, which is exactly why I wrote, "In 2000, Orania was included within the boundaries of the new Thembelihle Municipality."

I also did not say that Orania receives no government services; the residents presumably do receive provincial and national services from those levels of government. I wrote, "Orania does not receive services from the Thembelihle Municipality," based quite directly on the statement in the M&G article that "Thembelihle provides no services to Orania consumers — not sewerage, not roads, not rubbish collection." - htonl (talk) 20:37, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Orania is not just geographically a part of Thembelihle, they are an integral part of the administrative division. They vote in local municipal elections and roads leading into and out of the town are government supported. The "legal limbo" doesn't appear to actually exist in any tangible way.

The lack of services appears to be a result of Orania's status as a private entity, rather than having anything to do with a supposed transitional representative council. Desertambition (talk) 20:40, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I would certainly be happy add a sentence saying something like: "Orania residents are entitled to vote in elections for the Thembelihle council, although only 21% of registered voters in Orania cast a ballot in the 2021 elections." The road, the R369, is a provincial road. The unusual legal status exists enough for the Mail & Guardian to write an article about it, and for Cavanagh to discuss it in his book. htonl (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for expanding the history section. I still believe the paragraph is a bit misleading though. Thembelihle police have jurisdiction over Orania, roads leading into and out of the city are controlled by Thembelihle, and the government manages elections in Orania (besides their own private election, which is not an official election and more akin to a board of directors in a company.) Those are municipal services provided by their municipality.

This article also makes it clear that they are a part of Thembelihle.

So what will you do as the democratic government when they come forward seeking a full status as a stand-alone municipality, I ask? The ANC Northern Cape leader replies, “There’s no way that a democratic government will approve a settlement that is based on racial exclusivity to perpetuate the sins of the past, we’re not going to allow that.”

It appears that there is no transitional representative council anymore and there has not been since 2001. Whatever legal quagmire exists does not change the de facto reality of Orania being an integral part of the South African political system. It seems that their legal status is largely maintained due to collective private ownership rather than existing as a real town. Desertambition (talk) 08:06, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Police and elections are both national government services, and the road is maintained by the provincial government. None of these are municipal services. And nothing in the paragraph I wrote says that Orania is not an integral part of South Africa, merely that there is an unusual legal circumstance around its municipal status. It really feels like you are arguing in response to things I haven't written.

As to the existence of the TRC - what is your source for it having stopped in 2001? That directly contradicts the 2016 M&G article which says, "That gives it the only transitional representative council still extant, and makes it formally a holdover from the elaborate arrangements of the democratic transition." htonl (talk) 10:16, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Htonl: Apologies, perhaps I am misunderstanding the topic. Thank you for providing so much information. Perhaps you can clear up some of my confusion. I am under the impression from reading the transitional representative council article that a TRC is meant to manage a separate municipal entity and that Orania was integrated into Thembelihle entirely. How does the TRC exist if there is no separate municipal entity to govern? The lack of municipal services appears to be more due to their existence as an entirely private entity, rather than the existence of an entirely separate municipality. It does not seem like the government of South Africa officially sanctions or manages any elections for their TRC unless I am missing something.

TL;DR: Does a TRC necessitate a separate municipal entity and if so, does Orania have their own municipality? If not, how does a TRC exist without a separate municipal entity to govern & who manages the elections/what do they govern? Desertambition (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

(Answered over on Talk:Orania, Northern Cape#Mayor.) htonl (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

New census data

I was seeing that this page had information from the 2011 census and I wanted to see if it was possible to add the information from the new census. I found this page that apparently has the census data https://www.citypopulation.de/en/southafrica/admin/northern_cape/NC076__thembelihle I'm not South African so I'm not sure how reliable the data on this page is. Could someone who knows see it so that the data can be updated? 2800:810:595:1700:995C:ECF7:72E1:ABAE (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)