Talk:The Word for World Is Forest

In popular culture (removed from main article)

I removed this section from the main article. Since it's a significant cut, I wanted to add to talk page for the time being in case there is dispute. Explanations below.

A copy of The Word for World Is Forest is visible at the bedside of the character Joker in a scene set in Vietnam in Stanley Kubrick's film Full Metal Jacket (this is an anachronism as the movie takes place in and around 1968, while The Word for World Is Forest was published in 1976). However, given the movie's focus on the Vietnam War (as well as Kubrick's infamous attention to detail), this is likely a purposeful allusion. (The novel's appearance in the movie is factual but essentially trivia. The novel's significance in the movie is unclear and this paragraph seems to contain original research (see for instance the un-sourced phrase "likely a purposeful allusion"). If the novel's appearance were in fact notable or illuminating, I think that would belong in the article for Full Metal Jacket anyway, not this article.)

In chapter 43 of the expanded version of Stephen King's 1978 novel The Stand, dialogue between the characters Nick Andros (who is characterized as an avid science fiction reader) and Tom Cullen alludes to The Word for World Is Forest as they enter Woods County, Oklahoma: "'The world is the place I mean,' Tom said. 'Are we going into the world, mister?' Tom hesitated and then asked with hesitant gravity: 'Is Woods the word for world?' Slowly, Nick nodded his head." (This already had the OR warning dating from 2011. While possibly true—it certainly sounds like an allusion—this would just be trivia even with a source.)

Discussing James Cameron's movie Avatar, SF critic Gary Westfahl said that "the science fiction story that most closely resembles Avatar has to be Ursula K. Le Guin's novella The Word for World Is Forest." (This paragraph is misleading since it suggests this comparison is significant—either Avatar was inspired in some way by this novel, or this critic's opinion represents a commonly-held belief. Neither is supported by the sources listed. As it stands, this critic is drawing an illustrative comparison but does not state that either work has directly impacted the other.) Geethree (talk)

Personally, I found this section to be far more informative and useful than the current "Resemblance to Avatar" section which, frankly, looks like it belongs in a review or opinion piece. Psychonautical1 (talk) 15:23, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

References

Spoiler alert

The article needs a spoiler alert. (oops) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.119.15.23 (talk) 00:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It had the automatic warning up to 9th June, when it was removed on the grounds that plot summaries should be assumed to be spoilers. Not something I'd have done, but that seems to be the consensus.--GwydionM 17:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Corrections

The article should be corrected to reflect that Raj Lyubov's rank is Captain, not Corporal as the article states. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.198.146.30 (talk) 11:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph second sentence in the Publishing History section, the article refers to "Ellison." But there is no other mention of Ellison (Harlan?) in the rest of the article.

Irrelevant External Link

The link to the essay on _The Lathe of Heaven_ should be moved to the page for that book. They essay only tangentially mentions _The Word for World is Forest_. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.161.244.253 (talk) 22:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Extra material lost

Someone added the text below, and probably means well, but they wiped out a lot of other text without discussion or consultation. It is there to be added again, with suitable editing.

==Setting== Several centuries in the future, humans from Earth have established a logging colony and military base named "New Tahiti" on Athshe, a tree-covered planet whose small, green-furred, big-eyed inhabitants have formed a culture centered on lucid dreaming. Terran greed spirals around native innocence and wisdom, turning the ancient society upside down.

Humans have learned interstellar travel from the people of Hain (the origin-planet of all humanoid races, including the Athsheans, despite their appearance). The various planets have been expanding independently, but during the novel it is learned that the 'League of All Worlds' has been formed. News arrives via an ansible, a new discovery. Previously they had been cut off, 27 light-years from Earth, meaning a 54-year delay in question and response.

Athshe's plants and animals are similar to those of Earth, placed there by the Hainish people in their first wave of colonisation that also settled Earth. The Cetian visitor also states categorically that the native humans "came from the same, original, Hainist stock". It is not explained why they are green-furred and only one meter tall. Other distinctive humans such as the Gethenians are said to have been produced by genetic manipulation by the ancient Hainish colonisers.

The events of the novel occur after The Dispossessed, where both the ansible and the League of Worlds are unrealised dreams. Also well before Planet of Exile, where human settlers have learned to coexist. A date in the 24th century has been suggested.

The Word for World Is Forest is a science fiction novel by Ursula K. Le Guin, published in 1976 and based on her 1972 novella. It is part of the 'Hainish Cycle'.

Contents [hide] 1 Setting 2 Plot summary 3 Publishing history 4 In popular culture 5 References 6 External links

[edit] Setting Several centuries in the future, humans from Earth have established a logging colony and military base named "New Tahiti" on Athshe, a tree-covered planet whose small, green-furred, big-eyed inhabitants have formed a culture centered on lucid dreaming. Terran greed spirals around native innocence and wisdom, turning the ancient society upside down.

Humans have learned interstellar travel from the people of Hain (the origin-planet of all humanoid races, including the Athsheans, despite their appearance). The various planets have been expanding independently, but during the novel it is learned that the 'League of All Worlds' has been formed. News arrives via an ansible, a new discovery. Previously they had been cut off, 27 light-years from Earth, meaning a 54-year delay in question and response.

Athshe's plants and animals are similar to those of Earth, placed there by the Hainish people in their first wave of colonisation that also settled Earth. The Cetian visitor also states categorically that the native humans "came from the same, original, Hainist stock". It is not explained why they are green-furred and only one meter tall. Other distinctive humans such as the Gethenians are said to have been produced by genetic manipulation by the ancient Hainish colonisers.

The events of the novel occur after The Dispossessed, where both the ansible and the League of Worlds are unrealised dreams. Also well before Planet of Exile, where human settlers have learned to coexist. A date in the 24th century has been suggested.[1]

References

Broken link

There's a broken link in the External links section: http://wwwscience.murdoch.edu.au/teaching/a108/essay3.html Can someone find where the article has moved to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.166.140 (talk) 21:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I looked at it via the Internet Archive, where I found a copy of it from 2007, when it was added as an external link. It was a student essay which a college had posted anonymously as an example. It is thus not a reliable source, and it does not seem appropriate to link even to an archived copy, any more than I would link to some paper I wrote as a college student. I also removed another dead external link to an anonymous fan site. Edison (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Racism

The author specifies that the novel's antagonist is a black man from, if memory serves, Cincinnati, Ohio, on the earth, which is, at the time of the story, a slum- or a ghetto-planet inhabited primarily, if not entirely, by blacks, peoples of other races having long since departed. Since he is black, it should be clear that he is not the leader. There is racist irony in the fact that it is the nigger who has come up with a term of opprobrium for the local humans. Ms. Le Guin also notes that the woman raped has suffered internal damage because of the large size of Davidson's penis. That black men possess unnaturally-large penises is a stereotypically-racist stereotype. In other work, this author has also shown a negative attitude toward Affirmative Action in higher education. E.g., in a short story, a brilliant white mathematics major is denied access in favor of an undeserving black student who uses Affirmative Action to game the asmissions process. Hwgray (talk) 20:16, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

She has a distinctly positive black hero in Earthsea (and complained when the television version made it almost all white). Also a confused but well-meaning black character from Earth in The Left Hand of Darkness. Also The Word for World Is Forest draws inspiration from the Vietnam War, in which most Afro-Americans did identify with the US cause and some committed atrocities.--GwydionM (talk) 12:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Davidson is indeed a "euraf" in the book, but while the book makes clear he likes to rape, absolutely no mention is made of him or anyone else having any particular size of penis. Hwgray appears to be wrong about this, unless he/she can provide a page number and edition where LeGuin says such a thing in the book. No mention is made in my copy of the book of the native female having suffered "internal injuries," just that she died while or shortly after he raped her. Since she was only 3 feet (or one meter) tall, he could have smothered her inadvertently, crushed her under his weight, or beaten her to death. Edison (talk) 17:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Reference formatting

I am planning to write or rewrite parts of this article using books as sources. Using sfn formatting would make this much easier; so I am going to go ahead and change the formatting. If anybody has any objections, however, I am quite willing to self-revert and discuss. Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:17, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:The Word for World Is Forest/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 09:14, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Excellent: thank you. I should be available anytime over the next weeks to address questions and/or suggestions. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 09:34, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I'll take this one on if you like! It looks like you've had to wait quite some time. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:14, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

In the whole this is a very good and well written piece of work which clearly meets with the Good Article criteria. There are a few areas of prose that I think, however, could be improved. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Lede

• The opening sentences make no reference to the fact that Le Guin was an American or that the place of publication was the United States. I would add both. I would also add the name of the original publisher(s) into that opening paragraph. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Partially done. I've added the publisher: I hesitate over the "American". I've worked enough with Latin American pages to avoid the term "American" to mean "from the United States;" and I feel "United States author Ursula Le Guin" to be too clunky. Also, I don't think the author's nationality is commonly stated in the lead even To Kill a Mockingbird does not do so. Likewise, although it was written by a woman living in the US, I have not heard it frequently described as an "American" novel": hence my hesitation.
    • I appreciate the concern about "American" as a synonym for U.S. citizens being a contentious issue within the Americas, but unfortunately it does seem to be the only term that we have to describe citizens of that country. I really would recommend putting it into the lede, otherwise the reader loses out on crucial information; this could just as easily have been written by a Briton and published in the UK, or written by an Australian and published over there. I think it's really important to do this, otherwise I feel that it perpetuates the underlying U.S.-centric bias that is already fairly endemic across a lot of Wikipedia (I'm shocked that To Kill a Mockingbird has the same problem!). At the very least I would state that it was first published in the U.S. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
      • I've added "published in New York" (we might as well be specific, after all): is that better? On second thoughts, I've added "United States" as the place of publication; it's not clear that the anthology was published strictly in the city of New York.

Background

• "Vietnam war" - probably better as "Vietnam War". Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done

Setting

• "terrestrial colonists" - is the term "terrestrial" actually used in the novel for the people of Earth? I think that some confusion could arise from the use of the term in this context. Would "Terran" or something like that be better? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • good point. done

Plot summary

• "investigate,and" - space bar needed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• "Raj Lyubov, the colony anthropologist" is introduced twice in this section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes, I've done this a few times, haven't I. I've cut a few mentions: the two that are left are unavoidable, I think.
• "League of Worlds" and "league of worlds" - this needs to be standardised, probably to the former. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done

Publication and reception

• "was first published in the first volume" - to avoid the repetitive usage of "first", how about replacing the second appearance of the term with a synonym like "inaugural"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Well it was not a periodical, so "inaugural" does not quite work. I've added "initial" in place of "first" the first time: does that work?
    • I think so. Good call. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:31, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
• ""New Left" of science fiction" - is there any link that we could add in here? Clearly, New Left itself isn't really appropriate, but perhaps there is something else that is more fitting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • The closest link is New Wave science fiction, which I've added.

Primary characters

• "Raj Lyubov, the colony anthropologist"; again, we've seen this too many times before. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• India is linked to twice. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm aware of the overlinking guideline, but this was intentional. Given the nature of the topics, there is a tendency to interpret "Indian" to mean "Native American." I think it's important that the distinction be made clear in both places, hence the links. If you still feel one should be removed, then I will do so.
    • I think, as per Wikipedia policy, it will have to be removed. I do appreciate the reason for your hesitancy, however, but I don't think that Wikipedia policy allows exceptions. We could perhaps go with "South Asian" in place of "Indian" if that clarifies things? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:31, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
      • "South Asian" should be good enough: I've changed it.

Themes

• "his interpretation of dreams is a negative one, because it tells the Athsheans how to kill" - This is something of a value judgement, and could probably be rewritten, perhaps with the addition of "According to Spivack..." or something of that nature. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• In the "Colonialism and anti-war themes" sub-section, the Vietnam War is linked for the first time in the article body, but it has already been mentioned elsewhere in the article; it should be there that any link appear. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Again, this was intentional. It seemed to me that the link should be used where it would be most necessary for clarification, and the "themes" section seemed to me to be that location. If you disagree, I will shift it: it is not crucial.
• "the film Avatar shares" - I'd add "2009" in there, to make it clear that the film came after the book. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• You already cite Barnhill's article in the Journal for the Study of Religion, Nature and Culture, but it might also be worth looking at Barnhill's chapter on "Spirituality and Resistance: Avatar and Ursula Le Guin's The Word for World is Forest in Bron Taylor's edited volume Avatar and Nature Spirituality. That's certainly not a prerequisite for passing at GAN, but it may be something for you to look into in future. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • This is an excellent suggestion, thank you.

Style and structure

• "Captain Davidson narrates chapters 1, 4, and 7; Selver narrates chapters 2, 6, and 8; and the anthropologist Raj Lyubov " - again, no need to introduce Lyubov in this manner, and we probably don't need "Captain" either. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• Duplink of Vietnam War. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done

Sources

• Some work is needed here to fully format the different sources cited. For instance, "USA" appears as part of the location name for some publications but not others (I'd scrap that). Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Okay. I've removed the "USA", and added links for clarity.
• There is an inconsistency in the use of capital letters; the Donna White book needs to be formatted in the same manner as the other sources in this regard. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• A variety of journals are cited; some lack page numbers, others lack volume and issue numbers. These all need standardising. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done, I believe
• "Ursula K. Le Guin Awards List" needs a website name. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• The retrieved dates need to be standardised. I'd recommend standardising them all to the "1 April 1976" style as it is much clearer on an international level. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done
• Also, some of the links appear in strange places. For instance, both The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness are linked to in the "Themes" section, but they have both been mentioned before that. Make sure that each is linked to on its first appearance in the main body of the text (i.e. excluding the lede). Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • done

• I've responded to several comments: I'll finish the rest shortly. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • @Midnightblueowl: I believe I have fixed or responded to all the points you have raised. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    • @Vanamonde:. This is a really great piece of work and I am now happy to pass it as a Good Article! Well done. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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