Talk:The Virtual Wall

This article was nominated for deletion on 11 December 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Military history: Memorials / North America / United States

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion not met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military memorials and cemeteries task force
	North American military history task force
	United States military history task force

===== Following added by K. J. Davis 10 Dec 2006 =====*

Mr. R. W. Haworth of Croydon, UK has proposed that the entry for The Virtual Wall should be deleted on the grounds that it is (commercial) advertising. A visit to The Virtual Wall web site makes it clear that the site is financially supported and operated by volunteers and that contributions and/or donations are neither solicited nor accepted. I cannot agree that the material presented above is "advertising", any more than is the Wikipedia entry for Mr. Haworth's home city of Croydon. I believe Mr. Haworth is a bit off base with respect to this Wikipedia article.

The original article had a few issues that needed to be overcome. It is good of Mr Haworth to bring the article to a vote. 89.241.106.220 14:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

======Folowing added by James Schueckler 11 Dec 2006 =====*

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_virtual_wall

The article about The Virtual Wall is not an advertisement.

The Virtual Wall web site is not a commercial site. It does not sell any objects or services and does not request or accept any form of fee or donation.

The organization that runs The Virtual Wall does not charge any fee and does not accept donations from the public. The Virtual Wall is funded out of the pockets of a small number of volunteers who also do the work to maintain and expand it.

The Virtual Wall web site does not solicit, accept, or in any manner allow donations or fees. The Virtual Wall web site does not sell any kind of trinkets, calendars, mugs, photographs, etc. and even refuses to link to commercial web sites.

There is nobody involved with The Virtual Wall who is paid in any way. There are no full time employees. The officers and volunteers of the not-for-profit organization www.VirtualWall.org, Ltd. do not receive any form of compensation.

The only basis I can see for a claim of "advertising" is because I am the author of the article and I am the founder, and currently vice-president of www.VirtualWall.org, Ltd, the not-for-profit organization that runs The Virtual Wall.

However, wikipedia is *full* of articles about not-for-profit organizations that were either created or edited by somebody from the organization. Many of those not-for-profit organizations either sell objects as a sideline or solicit very openly for donations on their web sites.

Many corporations are described on Wikipedia. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodak That article has the Stock Exchange identifier and even a listing of the board of directors.

Every country in the world has "Veteran Memorials". There are several thousand veteran memorials in the USA. Almost every small town has one or more veteran memorials. Some cities have many veteran memorials. The purpose of such veteran memorials is to honor the fallen and to let the families and friends of the fallen know that special person has not been forgotten.

The article in question describes a veterans memorial. The memorial is not made of bronze or granite, it is made up of html and graphics files on a server, but is serves exactly the same purpose as the brick-and-mortar veteran memorials, to honor and remember the fallen.

The Virtual Wall typically has 6000 to 7000 unique visitors every day; more visitors than most of the brick-and-mortar veteran memorials. We periodically make snapshots of The Virtual Wall on CD's (Soon to be DVD's) and give them to museums. It is very likely The Virtual Wall may last longer than some of the brick-and-mortar veteran memorials.

If the only issue is a technicality that an article can not be created by a person involved with the subject of the article, then we can address that completely within your rules. A few weeks ago a man requested personal memorial pages on The Virtual Wall for two of his cousins who died in the Vietnam War. He then told me he maintains a commercial web site and offered to help us maintain The Virtual Wall. I have not answered him yet, so he has not joined us as a volunteer. If Wikipedia decides you must delete the article about The Virtual Wall, I would like to ask that man to write a Wikipedia article. He is an outsider.

If there is some other way te article about The Virtual Wall could be modified to prevent deletion, please tell me.

Sincerely, The Virtual Wall 03:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

James R. Schueckler Jim@VirtualWall.org

Wikipedia user name Thevirtualwall Founder, The Virtual Wall (TM) http://www.VirtualWall.org

Images

Should this page show images that identify individuals? Snowman 11:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed you've taken off all the images, I'm not sure if that's appropriate. I think the first two images with only lists of names should be brought back - there's no violation of privacy since those lists are on the public memorial anyway. I'm undecided on the last two images. The third image (the one detailing information on one soldier) would dodge privacy issues if it was replaced by a screenshot of information regarding a veteran who already has a Wikipedia article, since this information's already been made public by Wikipedia. Quack 688 12:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure about the privacy issues. I think that specific permission from the relatives would be polite. You are welcome to return your selected images and see if a consensus of opinion emerges. Snowman 13:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Virtual Wall website says that, All material on The Virtual Wall is either copyrighted by www.VirtualWall.org, Ltd. or used with permission,. Snowman 15:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most websites have a notice like that, but "fair use" allows us to use a low-res screenshot or two while discussing the website - at least, that's what seems to happen on other articles that discuss websites. Quack 688 08:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article meets Notability Criteria

The criteria for having a wikipage about a website ask for a notable external reference. Certainly, a laudatory mention in a DoD press release should quality: here^[1] The site is also referred to be the congressionally-chartered Vietnam Veterans of America^[2] In fact, according the DoD statement, the content of virtualwall.org are regularly uploaded to the official virtual wall: ^[3]

Bottom line: do not delete. In fact, expand! It would be nice to see more info about the site: services, number of visitors, number of contributors. Cdamama 08:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

References

[1] ttp://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2002/n11082002_200211083.html

[2] ttp://www.vva.org/TheVeteran/2004_03/VIRTUALwall.htm

[3] ttp://www.thevirtualwall.org/index.cfm?SectionID=2

[1]

[2]

[3]