Talk:The Theatre of Small Convenience

The One Show

Featured on BBC one's The One Show on 12 June 2008, 7pm, if anyone is looking for info/pictures. MickMacNee (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Smallest Theatre

There's a small problem with this article: Although a genuine source exists, we only have this information on hearsay: None of the references provided are reliable sources about this theatre being the smallest in the world. The acceptable source would be the Guinness Book of records itself, citing the year of publication, the ISBN number, and if possible, the page number. Can anyone come up with this info?Kudpung (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

If it comes from a reliable source, then by definitiion it is not hearsay. The BBC is perfectly acceptable as a citation for that claim, so I'm removing the tag. MickMacNee (talk) 09:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

References

As you wish. However, the cited source (about an entirely different object) contains only a very vague and minor reference: "In 1999, a disused toilet block in Edith Walk, Malvern, was converted into the Theatre of Small Convenience - a six-seat theatre officially recognised as the world's smallest theatre. Theatre of Small Convenience.", without any reference except the journalist's own statement. In my humble opinion this does not constitute a verifiable source, and I am unable to locate anywhere in Wiki policy that corroborates the BBC as being an unquestionable and verifiablbly reliable source. My own articles have been vandalised often enough by over enthusiastic editors for lesser infringements to Wiki policy, so I'm not going to start a revert war, but I'll research for a more substantial reference for this claim, failing which, we can ask for a consensus. I've got nothing against the theatre, I walk past it often enough, but I'm concerned about accuracy in the encyclopedia. --Kudpung (talk) 22:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, the 2002 claim appears to come from http://www.cotswolds.info/. It would be rather pointles to edit war over whether or not you or I believed they are in the 2002 book, if neither of us has the book. All that needs to be done is for someone to look. If the owner doesn't have it the next time you are passing, then I suggest the only sensible course of action is to appeal to the wider community, for someone who has the book, to check. It cannot be a coincidence that the BBC picks up this claim, albeit without being precise. At the end of the day, the claim of being in the 2002 book is self-referential after all, it doesn't exactly need to be re-stated in another source for our convenience, the book mention itself is the reference, as I hope I've explained. MickMacNee (talk) 20:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello MickMacNee. I've just re-removed the BBC reference from the article. The BBC piece is actually about a different public convenience, converted to an apartment - the reference to the theatre is only one sentence. I think the Independent article includes more information, and makes a better replacement (I don't think the BBC article gives anything that is not also in the Indy). I've also clipped the article somewhat, to avoid duplication and accusations of peacock. GyroMagician (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok then, regarding this. A few things:

1. I added the BBC ref back as it is the only independent source that says it is "officially" recognised in the past tense. The Ind ref is dated before it opened, which is why it can only say "The smallest theatre in the world is to open" - that's not enough imo to back up the primary source
2. I don't see the harm in clarifying in the article that plans for the theatre became known in the media by at least March 1997 - this helps others if they are digging around for info, and is just basic info anyway
3. I don't see the harm in clarifying he was planning to rent it from the council (in the process informing it was and presumably still is owned by them), rather than buy it, this is also basic info imo
4. You have removed the actual founding date, November 1999, from the main text. Infoboxes are supplementary, the article text should always still repeat what they say in text, as some people never even read them (and on my screen, the article prose is so short it is actually missable, being down the page beyond where I would scroll to finish reading the main text)
5. I had no idea what Great Malvern was (and still don't really after checking wiki), but it is different to Malvern, Worcs, I gather, being the actual town centre, so I think for completeness it needs clarifying there that the theatre is in the town centre of Malvern (although Google is contradictory, and its labelling suggests Great Malvern is the town/area, Malvern is the centre)
6. I think its important to just state Piccolo was listed in 1997 per the source and nothing more - we have nothing definitive that says it was the most recent record holder before TSC, however probable that it infact was
7. I cannot believe that there are so many things to discuss about such a little place!. I've had to use numbered points for it all. Still, it's a fun little article, so so far its better better than the usual slog. MickMacNee (talk) 02:22, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I feel a little guilty as I was the one that started this polemic, but only in the interests of the harsh criteria imposed for sourcing articles/statements - I've come under fire often enough myself in the past ;)
*I had no idea what Great Malvern was (and still don't really after checking wiki), but it is different to Malvern, Worcs, I gather, being the actual town centre, so I think for completeness it needs clarifying there that the theatre is in the town centre of Malvern (although Google is contradictory, and its labelling suggests Great Malvern is the town/area, Malvern is the centre)
We've have gone to great lengths with much research and debate to clarify this for the Malvern article which is now currently under GA review. In short, officially, Malvern is the town and Great Malvern, formerly the town, is now the informal area that covers the traditional town centre, although much of the town's commerce has now moved to out-of-town retail parks. I know the theatre well - I walk past it every time I park my car in Edith walk.--Kudpung (talk) 06:10, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi MickMacNee &co., Nice image - it gives a bit more character than the outside shot. To answer your other points:

1. We clearly need somebody with a 2002 Guinness Book to add the appropriate definitive ref - I don't have access to a copy. I don't like the BBC ref because it is actually about a different public convenience, with only a glancing mention of the TSC - I think this is confusing. For the opening date, it is on the TSC website.
2. Agreed.
3. Doh, my bad. That was unintentional. I'll put it back in.
4. If it is still the case, it might be worth adding that the TSC is rented from the council, but the amount is horribly out-of-date. I would prefer to find a more recent source, as this is taken from well before the TSC opened.
5. See Kudpung's comment.
6. Maybe I misread the article, but I understood that the Piccolo was the previous title holder, seating 30 people. The date the Piccolo entered the Guinness book belongs nicely in the (as yet unwritten) article about that theatre, but is not really relevant here - again, I think it is confusing.
7. If we keep going, the talk page will be larger than the Theatre!

Please, take my comments/edits as very fallible. I will argue about tiny points because I think I know what's right. I'm often not - please tell me when this is the case! I think vigorous argument (about the article, not the editors) makes for better pages ;-) GyroMagician (talk) 15:24, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I can only really reiterate my original thoughts - i.e. without the BBC source the claim is (and has been, see above) challengable, and the Independent definitely does not support a direct statement that TSC took the title from Picollo - both of these flaws stem from the fact the Independent material is from 1997, before TSC even opened. The whole thing could be cleared up if we had someone with not only the 2002 book, but all of them from 1997 to 2002. I certainly don't have them though, and can only suggest asking on a noticeboard. As for the rest, I've made some changes that I think are now ok, based on yours and Kupdung's comments. I leave it to you to decide if the fact that in 1997 he planned to rent it from the council is worth adding, given it might be out of date. MickMacNee (talk) 02:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

From the Indy article: The new theatre in Edith Walk, Malvern will be half the size of the building which currently lays claim to the title of the world's smallest theatre. The 1997 Guinness Book of Records gives that honour to the Piccolo theatre in Hamburg, Germany, which was founded in 1970 and boasts an audience capacity of 30. That clearly seems to state that the Piccolo previously held the title. For the TSC claim to be the smallest, their own website states it (although clearly we really need the GBoR for the original source - asking on a notice board is a good idea - do you know where I should try?). Also, I would not say that Great Malvern is any more historic than most English towns. Malvern does have a slightly confusing structure - it is a collection town centres (although not officially classed as such), collectively known as Malvern or The Malverns, of which Great Malvern in the main centre. I think we only need to state that the TSC is in Malvern, or Great Malvern, but not both. I have a slight preference for Malvern (Worcs), as that is the more detailed Wikipedia article, but only very slight. GyroMagician (talk) 10:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to these lovely people we now have references for the Guinness World Records claims. Don't you just love Wikipedia? GyroMagician (talk) 21:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Mikron

Twelve seats seems quite large! The Mikron Theatre Company are based on a narrow boat and my recollection is that it seats less than twelve. Cannot find the figure on the web. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 02:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe that's why I keep seeing smallest (building)? I did wonder. If you can find some details, it sounds worthy of a link (or maybe even it's own page). GyroMagician (talk) 10:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)