Talk:The Sword of Shannara/Archive 1

Archive 1

Needs cleanup. Too many words, not enough links. Lee M 01:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) The controversy segment should be deleted, seeing that most of the modern day fantasy novels and movies center around a similar plot that J.R.R. Tolkein derived. (Jason Fox 09:56, 23 November 2005)

It's true that most fantasy novels have their roots in Tolkien, but the Sword of Shannara is almost an exact copy of the plot. See my post on Talk:Terry Brooks for details. The section certainly shouldn't be deleted. - Batkins 02:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

"Controversy"

The section on the controversy is currently just basically apologist excuses by Shannara fans, so I've tagged it with {{npov-section}}. It basically excuses any comparisons saying that such reworkings are common in manga (?!? How many Westerners were aware of manga in 1978?), which is entirely irrelevant. There is no actual description of the similarities in plot, which are legion - the trivial points made in the apologisim are like saying that a character based on Gandalf was totally different because he wore a tan robe instead of a grey one. What is most depressing is the dismissal of the controversy as hysteria due to the extreme popularity of both works, which is a gross exaggeration of Shannara's popularity; the day a Shannara movie preview becomes the heart of a Cannes festival the way the LotR:FotR preview did will be very icy in certain realms. - dharmabum 08:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the inflammitory middle paragraph of the controversy section, it seems to serve no purpose other than to in flame debate.--User:Lord_Chess

Be that as it may: I'm not apologetic at all for Shannara. It is not a copy of anything else such as Lord of the Rings... they are completely different. For LotR fans to claim that Shannara is a copy of LotR is preposterous. User:Garetjaxusmc

It does take take some general themes from LotR but plagarism? hardly! i agree with you, there shouldn't even be a debate about this.

This is a funny statement of someone who has never read the sword of shannara. Tan robes aside (they were described as dark and Allanon is a darker person all together) The Sword of Shannara is considered a great peice of writing by the world in general. To belittle it make u small we all owe a debt of gratitude to people like Mr. Brooks he kept the genra alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.32.91.8 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 26 November 2006

I don't know if anyone is trying to belittle the book here. I happen to be a big fan of Brooks myself; however, there is clearly controversy about the book, as the article now cites (it gives an example of Orson Scott Card's heavy criticism). Hope that clears it up. Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Motion to strike "Controversy" section

I move we delete the whole "controversy" section and leave debate over plagarism or lack there of to here until firm evidence of an actual controversy or actual plagarism turns up.--User:Lord_Chess

It's hard to find a review of the book that doesn't refer to Tolkien's influence on the book's plot in some way (such as the Audiofile review here). It's a common complaint about the book, and the similarities are too close to ignore: Resident of a sheltered, peaceful community is pulled out of it by a tall magic-user who entrusts him with a precious magical item. He has to flee on his quest while being pursued by terrifying minions of a far-away evil necromatic king who theatens to destroy the world, eventually finding a mixed-race fellowship to aid his quest. Most high fantasy post-LotR owes a debt to Tolkien, but this book is particularly blatant. A description of these similarities without any loaded language either implying direct plagarism or defending him based on generalities in the genre would be most appropriate. - dharmabum 23:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point. I rewrote the controversy section. If everyone agrees, perhaps we can remove the warning tag on the section.--User:Lord_Chess

I made an attempt myself at a final polish, and went ahead and removed the NPOV tag. Feel free to re-add it if you disagree. - dharmabum 04:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks fine; I dont really agree with the whole plagarism thing but people can read both works and decide for themselves.--User:Lord_Chess

Brooks was obviously very heavily influenced by Tolkien's story when he began the Shannara series, but the specific legal charge of plagarism is probably far too harsh, as plot details are quite different, despite the broad strokes. Also note that the characters of Panamon Creel (sp?) and his silent troll sidekick could be seen as cribbed from Han Solo and Chewbacca, but nobody bothers with this reference; there are only so many tropes in western European/North American culture to be drawn on, so who can say what is deliberate or not? I just wanted to see the similarities between the two stories discussed, since so many reviews and fans have commented on them; without judgement either way about such legal issues, and it seems that they've been satisfied. - dharmabum 10:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is definatly not plagarism. All fantisy books, like LOTR, Eragon, and this, have the same basic story line. A person goes on a quest to destroy and evil being. Deltora books did that, along with almost every book that I have read. That's what a fantisy is! A person going on a quest to save the land!

As a man quite familiar with Brooks' and his works, I can tell you the controversy over the similarities was (and is, to some extent) real. Perhaps the word plagiarism is a bit strong; I'm going to reword the section a little (again); I hope it works.-Patstuart 02:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe so, but it would be nice to have some kind of reference to support it. Some references of an actual book reviews that bring up the controversy. Otherwise I don't know that we can call it a tru "controversy" and its hard to justify three paragraphs on the subject. I agree that the similarities are striking, but we need some citations to back it up. We could also use a reference for the sentence "Terry Brooks and his supporters point out..." If Brooks really pointed this out, we should be able to reference it. Sraan 22:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The closest I can find is this. I know there's more, but in published literature, this will have to do. It's a quote from Sometimes the Magic Works (page 189), Brooks' book on writing style:

My books are compared most often to Tolkien's, sometimes favorably, sometimes not, less so now than once, but frequently nonetheless. This is understandable. When Sword was published, ... [they used] words similar to these: "For all those who have been looking for something to read since The Lord of the Rings." Such language invites comparisons, good and bad.

This is just the part where the controversy is mentioned - he admits freely in other parts that Tolkien was a major influence. As for online material, the criticism isn't that hard to find:

Dying in 1973, Tolkien didn't see the flood of Lord of the Rings imitations that began with Terry Brooks's The Sword of Shannara and still continues. Lucky him. - [1]

Granted. The word controversy may be a bit strong. But criticism certainly has existed, though much more so 30 years ago than now (primarily because he was one of the first people to borrow so heavily from Tolkien). Hope this is enlightening; give me your thoughts, guys, on how we should handle the section now. --Patstuart 23:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, those are useful references. It would be nice to find one from a reputable source that talks about the similarites in plot, and not just in environment/races/magic, etc. There are lots of "imitations" in a Tolkeinesque universe, but Sword seems to stick to the LOTR plot as closely as Eragon does to Star Wars. But since Eragon is a very recent work, there are lots of online sources to cite that controversy. If I find anything better for Sword, I'll bring it up here. We might want to condense the paragraphs though, maybe just one paragraph describing the controversy and one describing the defense? I'll dink with it sometime. Sraan 02:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I just typed similarities "sword of shannara" tolkien into google, and came up with this immediately: [2] and [3]. Those are just two examples from sffworld.com. -Patstuart 16:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but those are just anonymous blogs/posts. They aren't reputable sources. I found one good reference in online magazine book review that I will try to incorporate into our article if I can find it again. Sraan 20:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is one that could be somewhat useful [4] and another one by Orson Scott Card that discusses how Sword is a derivative work, but not at all in the category of plagiarism [5]. I tried to fix up the paragraphs now, so let me know what you think. Sraan 21:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I dont care if we call it plagiarism, but the strongest "copies" of Tolkien are in my opionion not even so much the "boy goes along with multi-racial group". That could even be said of David Eddings "Belgariad" or a lot of other books since. It is the combination of the general plot (as described) PLUS a few stunning "coincidences" like a fight of the main, good sorcerer (Allanon/Gandalf) over a pit with a dark figure (Skullbearer/Balrog), until they both fall in and are thought to be dead PLUS a story of a king who lost his throne (Balinor/Aragorn) PLUS a story about a king who gets posioned by his most trusted advsior (Stenmin/Wormtongue) until he is freed by the fellowship, and so on and so on... These are the things in the storyline, that really drove me crazy when I first read Shannara ages ago. If it is not plagiarism, then it is an example how Tolkien influenced the authors who came after him. And I think that those details (at least the fight of Allanon/Gandalf) should be mentioned there. --58.187.58.86 16:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

i just picked up this book, having previously avoided it as a LOTR rip off, I've read about 90 pages and so far it's pretty similar to the LOTR plot. On reading the authors note it does seem strange that fans are still maintaining this debate - I suggest anyone who believes the author did not borrow heavily from LOTR goes and reads the authors notes. Waffle247 11:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Proof

Some evidence that The Sword of Shannara is a ripoff:

A small band of people sets off from the peaceful Shady Vale/Shire at the urging of the mysterious wizard Allanon/Gandalf. Along the way, they are hunted by evil black Skull Bearers/Ringwraiths. They reach the city of Leah/Bree, where they get help. They go through the spooky Black Forest/Old Forest. They meet the mysterious old King of the Silver River/Tom Bombadil. They come to the peaceful place of learning, Culhaven/Rivendell, where a multiracial group of heroes is assembled, and the whole group sets off to the ancient fortress of Paranor/Moria, which has been taken by the enemy (along the way, the main character fights a mechanical spider/giant spider). Around this point, the group breaks up. The main character goes to the stronghold of evil, helped by the repulsive little thing Orl Fane/Gollum who is obsessed with their quest object. The rest of the group goes to the border country of Callahorn/Gondor, where the riverside city of Kern/Osgiliath falls to the bad guys. The forces of evil then attack the capital, Tyrsis/Minas Tirith, whose ruler (who is a relative of the member of the group whose name starts with B) has gone out of his mind. The bad guys are turned back at the last minute.

Being mildly derivative is fine, but this copies down the tiny little details. Even most of the characters are similar:

Shea Ohmsford: Frodo

Flick Ohmsford: Sam

Menion Leah: Only original character

Allanon: Gandalf

Durin and Dayel: Legolas

Hendel: Gimli

Balinor: Boromir/Aragorn

Basically, what Brooks did is copy the plot, change a few points, switch the Magic Artifact, and alter the names. Sometimes he was even too lazy to do that: Durin is the name of the dwarven king in LotR. --218.103.207.148 10:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

---

One who believes that the Shannara trilogy is a "rip-off" and copy of the Lord of the Rings most probably has either no sense of respect altogether. If you will count the number of similar and same names that are in the numerous fantasy books you will be surprised. Though it may be true that creativiy in names is important to the book, it is plain nonesense to make this a key to your argument that the Shannara books are a "rip-off". It is not the character's name that suggests his overall appearance in a book, it is the character's actions, speech and the feeling you get when you read of the character. Comparing Allanon to Gandalf is an insult. Both chracters are richly drawn and are key defenders of good, yet look further in. It is clear that they are two different people of different personalities. Where Gandalf is an old man of great power and purely a man of light (he has almost no faults or worries - except for the safety of Frodo and the fellowship), Allanon is a darker man still. He makes mistakes. He is a man of power, yes! (so is any good adviser in the fantasy genre) but if you look closer you will see the difference. I am a fan of he Lord of the Rings, and I am a fan of the Shannara books...if you think that one is a "rip-off" of the other than you are sadly mistaken. I regret to say that Tolkien is not the inventer of fantasy, even if he did indeed influence the whole of fantasy authors. To sort the similarities of fantasty/fiction writings would bring you a long way. For even Tolkien took ideas from others. Brooks did also, and to call that plagerism is a foolish move. Both works are great and popular, be it as it may it is strange to me to see fans of this and that to discuss such short-sighted absurdity. We must give credit to Tolkien for bringing back the genre and to Terry Brooks for popularizing it further. Bocaj1 17:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So he used the term "rip off." That's loaded and perhaps unmerited. But it DOES seem more derivative than most fantasy novels. I don't think it's a horrible thing, no more than I think remixing a song is a horrible thing, or the way settings for games get reinterpreted with the next edition. It's also not to say that all of Terry Brooks' works are as derivative. But the similarities are undeniable and comfortably beyond the normal fair for fantasy novels. Also, your argument lacks specific examples besides the Gandalf/Allanon differences, which still don't discredit his argument as he did say that Terry Brooks changed a few points. Towards the end you're using rhetoric that most people on the subject are pretty familiar with, and still don't address how acutely Sword of Shannara resembles the Lord of the Rings trilogy. If you were to to offer more examples, specific differences in the plot that are wide-ranging and defining, or very distinct and detailed differences in mood or tone, it'd be more convincing. - Sawyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.201.130.181 (talk) 22:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, in LotR, the heroes were unable to travel the way the wished early in their adventure, so they took a mysterious and foreboding underground passage to cut underneath the land. Along the way, their tall wizard leader fought a seemingly invincible foe, and fell with it into a pit of fire to his supposed demise, only to meet up with the main characters later. In SoS, however... wait a second! 71.126.172.120 (talk) 08:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright. This is not what a discussion page is for. It is about the artical, not it's subject. Jazz Band Member 00:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)