Talk:The Song of the Western Men

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Untitled

i am usure which version of kernewek (cornish) this is in. i have it in 2 versions, but i have only put one up. if anyone knows can they change the "lyrics in cornish (kernewek)" to read appropriately please.

Can you check the translation? I have no Kernewek at all, but I notice the first two lines of the chorus are the same, but they aren't in English. Number774 (talk) 21:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Flags

The "Policy" on flags (I'm assuming that means WP:FLAG) is no policy at all, an essay at best (WP:DCE).

Secondly, neither of them are "inappropriate" as they represent Cornwall (Which this is a defacto song of), aren't partizan or ambiguous, and are excellent for the illustration of this articel as the subject (A song) is unrepresentable with an image. 68.39.174.238 11:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello User 68.39.174.238 point taken on policy/essay BUT the flags are too much there are 2 for a start !! Do we have to plaster all articles with national symbols ?? I have put a question on the Cornwall talk page however I will give it a few days to see what people say I for one see it as detrimental to the article - Please see [God Save the Queen] for a better article on a patriotic song - Any sign of a Union Jack / ST Georges Cross etc ..... No... By the way I am not anti-cornish by any means, ask and I will tell you more Reedgunner 17:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC) WP:DCE amusingly by the way also an essay[reply]

"God Save the Queen" (Two brackets to a link) has other pictures to it, ones which I admit are more appropriate then flags, however this one does not. Also, DCE is an essay as it mainly seems to serve as a reminder that "policy is policy... and not essays", rather then needing to be a policy itself (If it was, it wouldn't be DCE but probably something like "Policy is only made up of pages that say "Policy" on them""). Anyway I'll see what Talk_Cornwall says. 68.39.174.238 02:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cornish "National" Anthem

I see that the reference to"Trelawny" being called the "national" anthem of Cornwall has been removed with the comment that Cornwall is not a nation. Which is correct ? Cornwall is considered by some to be a separate nation, within the country of England as it has its own Cornish language, posseses an official government ethnic code- (see Census 2001 Ethnic Codes) and is recognised as a Celtic nation by organisations such as the Celtic League (political organisation). "Nation" should not be confused with "country" - members of a "nation" share a common identity, usually a common origin, in the sense of history, ancestry, parentage or descent. A House of Lords ruling in 1983 said: ‘an ethnic group has a distinct identity, based on recognising a long shared history and having distinct cultural traditions which may be related to one or more of the following characteristics - ancestry, geographical origin, nationality, country of birth, cultural traditions, religion and language. See - "The Cornish: A Neglected Nation ?" from the BBC by Dr Mark Stoyle [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.216.240 (talk) 14:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a Cornishman who considers his country to be England and his nationality to be British (and who therefore does not really have a politically-motivated POV on this subject), I would still describe "The Song of the Western Men" as Cornwall's "national anthem" for the reasons given above. I have always heard it described as such and I don't think it's a particularly POV thing to say. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for posting your comments. You may describe it as being a "national" anthem, however that carries no weight for an encyclopeida. Cornwall is not a nation, as recognised by authorites such as The United Nations and the legal system of The United Kingdom (or if being pedantic that of England and Wales.) The Celtic League is, by its own definition, a poltical organisation. Its aims are highly controversal. It is not an appropriate authority to decide what regions are actually separate nations, and therefore override democratic statutes. Consequently would be incorrect to describe the song here as a "national" anthem. Because of this I have reverted the edit back to just anthem - and I am not sure why this description would be disagreeable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.63.168 (talk) 22:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact remains that most Cornish people, including those who have no political desire to see an independent Cornwall, describe it as their "national" anthem. Whether that is strictly correct or not is really beside the point, since an encyclopedia reports actual usage as well. Since the part of the article you are changing says Trelawny is "referred to as the "unofficial" Cornish national anthem" the statement is entirely accurate - it is so described. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A fact? Without evidence that is simply opinion, and not fact. What is a fact is that Cornwall is not a nation and therefore can not have a national anthem, unoffical or not. For "referred to to be included would of course need legimtate supporting citations, and then a competent encyclopedia should note this description is inaccurate. Anyway I don't understand what is wrong with the description of "symbolic anthem of Cornish unity." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.252.123 (talk) 21:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggect the anon contributor tries googling for "Cornish national anthem" and the for "Cornish anthem" before he or she makes any more non-consensus changes to this or any other article. DuncanHill (talk) 02:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translation in Cornish

Does the translation into Cornish add anything to the article? Personally I think a link to the translation is enough. If nobody strongly objects I will take off the translation. Talskiddy ^talk

14:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The Severn?

I've long wondered: the Tamar is obvious as it is the Cornwall/Devon border, but why the mention of the Severn? Crossing that is going in completely the wrong direction if heading from Cornwall to London. Whatever march it commemorates, were there Welshmen involved as well? Walshie79 (talk) 12:11, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I learnt this song at school (not in Cornwall), and I wondered about that bit of "geography" back then. --TiffaF (talk) 21:25, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of the song

"Hawker, a churchman, assumed that the Trelawny mentioned in the song... " Was there a version before Hawker's? If not what does this mean? S C Cheese (talk) 10:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to Hawker "the choral lines,

‘And shall Trelawny die?

Here’s twenty thousand Cornish men

Will know the reason why!’

[...] have been, ever since the imprisonment by James the Second of the of the seven bishops – one of them Sir Jonathan Trelawny – a popular proverb throughout Cornwall...". The article used to mention this, but it was removed without explanation in 2015. DuncanHill (talk) 16:12, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks S C Cheese (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've altered the article accordingly, including that citation S C Cheese (talk) 16:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]