Talk:The Shadow of Saganami

Removed

I've removed the following sentence

The plot bears some similarities to On Basilisk Station and can be seen as a homage.

that had been tagged wioth {{who}} and {{or}} templates. This is indeed something that needs to be sourced. Apart from that, I personally, even after having read all of the Honorverse books and after having written about them myself, don't see it this way. So: sources, please. Debresser (talk) 08:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability

No reviews listed at ISFDb. What I found: a review at atboundarysedge - a blog; another blog review [1] at Phil's Rambling Rants... that's about it. Ping User:Cunard - I am afraid this is a prime redirect target... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

It debuted at #16 on the NYT best seller list, which meets criterion 1 of the books notability requirements. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:25, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe WP:NBOOK criterion 1 is "The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself." Being #1 on a best seller list doesn't seem to meet this criterion? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: You only quoted the first part of that. The full thing states "The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book." (emphasis added)

It's long been accepted that appearance on a best seller list can contribute to notability. With the other reviews shown below, this easily meets notability, whether NBOOK or GNG. Also, ISFDB doesn't list anything other than reviews found in magazines that have had their contents indexed. It's very possible that other reviews exist that either haven't been indexed or are outside of the scope of ISFDB's contents. Lack of one or more reviews on ISFDB shouldn't be used to claim there are no reviews. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 15:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe Thanks for pointing me to the mention of besteller lists. It's good to know, but the mention has to be non-trivial, and usually, such mentions are just "lists", that's even below the disparaged "listicle" entry - although common sense indicates that an entry on a bestseller list is probably more indicative of some notability than in some semi-AI generated listicle. As for the other comment, wP:THEREMAYBESOURCES - we can't assume that. We have to work with what we have, and what we have here is not much :( I'll take a look again but I fear AfD is in the future for this... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Being on a major best seller list is the thing, just like charting is for music (though music can be the top 100, and most best seller lists aren't that long). The NYT best seller lists have long been considered an indication of notability. Changing that would require an RFC to change the notability wording. The combination of the best seller status and the reviews (especially the PW review) indicate the book is notable. There are likely other reviews out there that haven't yet been found yet, including offline sources that don't show up online. Perhaps spend your time going after topics that actually aren't notable rather than ones that obviously are. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Piotrus (talk · contribs). Here are some sources about the book The Shadow of Saganami:

1. "The Shadow of Saganami". Publishers Weekly. Vol. 251, no. 42. 2004-10-18. p. 52. Archived from the original on 2023-06-08. Retrieved 2023-06-08. {{cite magazine}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 2023-06-10 suggested (help)

   The review notes: "Weber emphasizes the role that tradition plays in inspiring our lads and lasses in uniform, reminding the reader that a hero can be anyone who does his or her job with honor, commitment and skill. (Nov.) Forecast: A 75,000-copy first printing should ensure a run up genre bestseller charts."

2. Joyce, John (2004). "Gift Ideas for the Laboratory Cloistered". Scientific Computing & Instrumentation. Vol. 21, no. 12. p. 49. EBSCOhost 15068525.

   The review notes: "Whether he believes that assessment or not. Captain Terekhov and his crew refuse to allow it to affect the execution of their duty, which soon proves that much larger wagers are in effect than anyone ever anticipated. More than anything else, it is how they uphold the tradition of Saganami that the outcome of this book rests. I found this book very satisfying on several levels and perfect for that roaring tire."

3. Barron, Neil; Barton, Tom; Burt, Daniel S.; Hudak, Melissa; Meredith, D.R.; Ramsdell, Kristin; Schantz, Tom; Schantz, Enid (2005). Baer, Beverly (ed.). What Do I Read Next 2005: A reader's Guide to Current Genre Fiction, Fantasy, Popular fiction, Romance, Horror, Mystery, Science Fiction, Historical, Inspirational, western. Detroit: Gale. p. 300. ISBN 0-7876-9021-X. ISSN 1052-2212. Retrieved 2023-06-08 – via Internet Archive.

   The book notes: "The Republic of Haven is embroiled in another interstellar war, but Captain Helen Zilwicki and her crew are sent to watch over an allied system that appears to have been virtually forgotten by both sides. They quickly discover that this is not the easy assignment they expected, when a variety of conspiracies begin to flower and the local space pirates turn out to have political and military support from the enemy."

Cunard (talk) 09:19, 10 June 2023 (UTC)