Talk:The Queen

Camilla

She is "The Queen" now. "The Queen" refers to ANY incumbent Queen Monarch or Queen Consort. The Queen Mother was "The Queen" 1936-1952. There are plenty of sources which talk about her as The Queen or her and George VI as The King And Queen.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

And where is your reliable source for your claim that the most common meaning of "The Queen" is Camilla? Meters (talk) 08:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Like I said on the talkpage, references are not supposed to be added to disambig pages like this.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

If you insist on a reference: As the wife of the King, Camilla is technically Her Majesty The Queen and entitled to be known as “The Queen”, but briefings and statements from Buckingham Palace have referred to her as “Queen Consort”.Romomusicfan (talk) 09:02, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Source goes on to say "Historically both Queen Regnants and Queen Consorts have often simply been known as ‘The Queen’" Romomusicfan (talk) 09:05, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:DABRELATED, Include articles only if the term being disambiguated is actually described in the target article. Camilla is not currently referred to or described as "The Queen" in her article. She is "Her Majesty The Queen Consort", which includes "The Queen", but WP:PARTIAL explicitly says ... a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name ... should not be included. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:10, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Mitch Ames, Meters, OK, how about this then? Romomusicfan (talk) 09:33, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The updated Camilla, Queen Consort article appears to be accurate in its wording, and that article does now describe the term, so WP:DABRELATED is technically satisfied. However, your DAB page text "The Queen most commonly refers to Camilla ..." is not correct, in that the article and the ref don't say that she is currently called The Queen, merely that she is entitled to be. For the DAB page wording to be correct, she would have to be "most commonly" referred to as The Queen, but nobody appears to be calling her that (yet). Possibly the DAB page should say something like "The Queen most commonly refers to: Elizabeth II, Margrethe II. The Queen is also a technically/legally valid term for Camilla, but she is generally not referred to as such." Mitch Ames (talk) 10:33, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I've used more or less your wording. I have added the word "currently" as doing so is not a breach of WP:CRYSTAL and it is WP:SKYBLUE that it will - and probably soon - be common to call her The Queen like all the other queens, mornarch or consort, in history.Romomusicfan (talk)

@QueenofBithynia Hi, I saw you reverted the page back to just refer to Queen Elizabeth II. You point out that she is still often referred to as The Queen, but Camilla is often being referred to as The Queen and we should include her as well. Jtrrs0 (talk) 11:23, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Also the issue is incumbents versus historic queens, not monarchs versus consorts.

It's also worth pointing out that in the case of Margrethe II, "The Queen" is a translation of Dronningen/Det Dronnigen. She is more likely to be called "The Queen of Denmark" than "The Queen" in English except in an article which establishes itself as being specifically about Denmark long before she is mentioned.Romomusicfan (talk) 11:36, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree. I think it is a bit odd that the queen of Denmark gets more coverage than the queens of Spain or the Netherlands, etc. that also get regular coverage in English-speaking sources. I think there is a discussion to be had whether their inclusion is warranted to be consistent. In any case however, Camilla clearly needs to be disambiguated here. I probably agree that the people over her talk page are right to keep the title of her article as it is. Nonetheless, it makes no sense to exclude her as she is the Queen (Consort) and readers may be confused as to why she does not appear here given her new role.

I do agree that we should keep Elizabeth II for the foreseeable future as the transition in people's language is made, but there is no reason why we can't have both. Indeed, we should have both! Jtrrs0 (talk) 11:47, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Keep both if you insist, but very few reliable sources are referring to Camilla as just "the Queen" (at least for now - this may change very soon). "Queen consort" is still the term used by most mainstream RSes in the UK to avoid confusion with Elizabeth II, and when most people think of "the Queen" as a standalone phrase, she is still overwhelmingly the primary topic. If and when this changes, we change too. Right now, especially if you look at this from a global perspective, there is no need to mention Camilla specifically outside of the clarification that this title may refer to the queen (regnant or consort) of any monarchy – QueenofBithynia (talk) 12:03, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I'll effect the changes now to include both.

The only reason I insist is that I think the issue is not really one of Queen vs Queen consort. I agree most RSes still use Queen Consort to resolve the ambiguity of who exactly they mean because Queen would be too unclear. But, it is precisely because there is this ambiguity right now, that if someone simply typed the Queen into the search box it is perfectly possible, indeed likely, that they might mean Camilla and not Elizabeth II and thus we should disambiguate her here, even if we also keep the title of her article as Queen Consort per the RSes as the consensus in that article seems to be at the moment. Jtrrs0 (talk) 12:17, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I also agree with Romomusicfan; saying that Margrethe II is commonly referred to as "the Queen" without establishing any context is rare in English-language sources, which was not the case for Elizabeth II. The list needs to be reworded to reflect this. QueenofBithynia (talk) 12:11, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The only two who are called "The Queen" in English at the moment are Elizabeth II (commonly) and Camilla (technically as incumbent). They should be given priority. The disambig to other queens should specify both former and non-Anglophone queens as they are either no longer The Queen and/or are called a term another language that translates to "The Queen".Romomusicfan (talk) 12:20, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you both. No other queens were commonly known as The Queen in English sources.

I personally think that there is unlikely to be confusion if we simply remove Margrethe II and leave it at that, otherwise the page could become a list of all current and recently deceased Queens. The phrase "The Queen may also refer to any queen of any monarchy, as well as to:" is enough in my view. The Disambiguation page Queen already links to a list of all queens regnant which should be enough to get people to where they intend to go without cluttering this page. Jtrrs0 (talk) 12:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I still don't think that (for the time being) Camilla should be included. Most UK sources are still referring to her as the "Queen Consort" and not "the Queen". Yes, I am aware of the discussion at Talk:Camilla, Queen Consort but I still find it unconvincing for inclusion in this article. Perhaps this is something which should be brought to a more centralised discussion? – QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

She is as much The Queen as the future Queen Mum was The Queen 1936-1952 and we have a source to support this. She is the only person currently eligible to be called The Queen. She is due to be crowned Queen Camilla with the Queen Mum's 1936 coronation crown (again all covered in the source.)

Calling her Queen Consort has nothing to do with appeasing public feeling over Diana (and that doesn't stop Camilla having an entry on the Princess of Wales page.) It is all down to disambiguation as most people are still in the habit of calling Elizabeth II the Queen. The Queen Mother was called The Queen Mother once widowed instead of Queen Elizabeth for exactly the same reason (the two previous Queen Mothers carried on being known as Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra.) A lot of official statements recently have been about the Queen being dead and buried and while some hardcore Diana fans would totally want this for Camilla, since that is not the situation, it has been necessary to be absolutely clear which Queen has died and gotten buried and which is taking over as Queen, but not as monarch.) Romomusicfan (talk) 00:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not opposed to bringing this to a more centralised discussion if you like, but I think that with some minor changes of wording I am happy with the current state of this page.

I don't think the point really is whether she is being referred to as the Queen consort, that discussion seems (relatively) well settled over at Talk:Camilla, Queen Consort. I think the relevant point here is whether she should be included here and if so with what degree of notoriety (to which I reply to @Romomusicfan's point below). Per WP:DABCOMBINE variant versions and compound words can belong in a disambiguation page where there is a real threat that there is ambiguity. For the reasons I have outlined above, I think there is a very real, (in my view inevitable) likelihood that readers who are searching for Camilla's article will increasingly just search "The Queen", they should be met by a page checking if they mean Elizabeth II or Camilla, Queen Consort. Jtrrs0 (talk) 08:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The issue is that in theory "The Queen" means Camilla although in practice for most people it still means Elizabeth II although that is starting to gradually change. That is why the words Former and Incumbent are important contrary to what user Good Day claimed and why I reversed their edit. (I accept that "now" and "technically" are not allowed on Wikipedia although it's a pity as those words hammer the point home.) Romomusicfan (talk) 10:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

While I haven't really participated in the discussion about this in her article's talk page, I fully 110% agree that in theory and as a matter of English Common Law she is "The Queen." Full stop. End of discussion. I think the issue is whether people still refer to QEII as some form of 'The Queen' because that's the point of disambiguating it.

In my view, even when most journalistic (and other reliable) sources start referring to Camilla as 'The Queen' without qualifier, I would probably argue that it would be a good idea to keep QEII disambiguated for a bit as she is still likely to need it. But we're far from being at that stage yet in my opinion (as discussed below). Jtrrs0 (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Quick edit to add that I don't have very strong views re Good Day's edit and your reversion. I think as a matter of policy they are probably right, though. Edited Jtrrs0 (talk) 15:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC).

Come to that, re. Elizabeth II still being "The Queen" after 8 September 2022

I notice there are no sources or any statement to support Elizabeth II still being The Queen posthumously post 8 September 2022 on the Elizabeth II page. If there are no sources to support her still being The Queen, then that makes Camilla the only person verifiable sources as being The Queen from 8 September 2022 to the present moment. So either such a source should be found or else Elizabeth II should be demoted to being covered by past queens. Either way, we are being very generous to public opinion by continuing to give Elizabeth II top billing or any billing without any up to date sources confirming her continued posthumous state as the current The Queen. Romomusicfan (talk) 00:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I tried googling this but got no useful answers. Not even from depracted source red top tabloids who you might imagine would run stories like "Elizabeth Will ALWAYS Be The Queen And No-one Else." which wouldn't be any use on Wikipedia anyway, but it's telling that even their kind are not outright saying such things.Romomusicfan (talk) 00:52, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid I must disagree with the idea that we should remove QEII from this page so soon. As I show below the practice in secondary reliable sources is still fluctuating but still includes references to her as 'the Queen'. In any case, just as I think people might be searching for Camilla's article by searching 'the queen' I think people will still be doing that for QEII for a while yet.

In any case I found a couple reliable sources from last Friday (30 Sept) that still refer to Elizabeth II as "the Queen" or "the late Queen".

• This BBC article refers to her both as "the Queen" and "the late Queen" [1]
• This Daily Telegraph refers to her exclusively as either "the late Queen" or by her full title without a preceding article (ie as "Queen Elizabeth II) [2]
• This Reuters piece follows the same practice as the Telegraph [3]
• This Guardian article informally calls her "the Queen" or uses her whole title without an article [4]

I think editorial practice is clearly shifting away from calling her 'The Queen' and towards 'the Queen' or QEII, but it is far from universal. I suspect this shift to lower case reflects that for many, in every day speech, she is still referred to as 'The Queen' and newspapers are having to balance accuracy to the fact she is not technically the Queen with being understood and some have settled on using 'the late' and some just 'the'. I think this page is fine as it is, it is clear accurate, reflects accepted usage in secondary sources and most important in my view, is helpful to getting readers to where they want to go quickly. Jtrrs0 (talk) 08:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, disambiguation on the part of both the palace and the media. It will shift towards Camilla in time. And then Kate after her and then George's missus (whoever she turns out to be and assuming he has one) and then ...

It's also the exact same status Diana would have had if she was still alive and still married to Charles.10:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Fully agree that it's disambiguation on their part and that my guess is that it will go away. Privately I suspect that by the coronation or just after she will be known simply as 'The Queen'.

Nonetheless, we should probably persist and disambiguate her here as she is still being referred to as 'The Queen' and is likely to continue being referred as such for the time being. Jtrrs0 (talk) 15:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Most likely it will be phased in, starting with the revivial of the "The King and Queen" formulation last used by George VI and Elizabeth senior when the former was still alive, in news reporting sourcesof them turning up to royal engagements as a husband-and-wife double act. (Charles and Camilla already operate in this manner.) Romomusicfan (talk) 08:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The Queen (Elizabeth II) did not pass her title on to King Charles III's wife as she gave Camilla the title 'Queen Consort' so she is still Her Majesty the Queen, as stated on the royal website. Most Brits want the Queen's wishes to be respected and they still know and refer to Elizabeth II as the Queen, not Camilla. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:6482:AA01:9AAB:A289:8A74:FFAD (talk) 13:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Elizabeth II gave no indication that she wanted the tag "Consort" with a capital C appended to Camilla's title forever. She wanted Camilla to have the same status as Elizabeth Bowes Lyon, Mary of Teck and Alexandra of Denmark and other wives of past Kings of England. They were Queens consort too, but they were just called The Queen in everyday speech. Camilla is no different from them.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Camilla will officially be style 'the Queen' on Coronation day

It has been confirmed that the title 'Her Majesty the Queen' will be granted to Camilla, Queen Consort at the Coronation, which means that Queen Elizabeth II will no longer be 'the Queen'. Perhaps it might be time that this page reflects this fact. 2A00:23C7:6482:AA01:D9B2:BAE:2750:401F (talk) 16:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

And so she is

The Queen (meaning Camilla) page on Official Royal Family Website (as opposed to Queen Elizabeth page on said site )
BBC News - King and Queen say thanks for 'glorious occasion'
Will add more as I can find them. The i has a very good piece but it's only available in print as far as I can see.Romomusicfan (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Order of The Queen_s

So at what point should Camilla get top billing above the late Liz 2? Romomusicfan (talk) 07:30, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Elizabeth II - how long?

...before she is just another dead queen and need no longer be singled out for a special mention on this disambig? 2.24.70.133 (talk) 11:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)