Talk:The Ohio State University

Name Change

There's no mention of when OSU actually added the "The", which was only in the last few years, and partially in response to the fight with Ohio University over the web domain name www.ohio.edu

That's not my understanding. I'm pretty sure the name was originally The Ohio State University, and has been so since the current name was chartered in the 1880's. Analoguekid 21:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Bcirker is correct. The "The" was part of the official, legal name of the university as of its last formal name change in 1878. It's recent emphasis predates the lawsuit and was a response to Governor Rhodes' attempt to dumb down the university system and emphasize quantity rather than quality--in effect, Rhodes attempted to undo the very reason (establish a flagship research university for Ohio) that Ohio State was founded. Emphasizing the "The" was simply a subtle attempt to punture his populist illusions of no differences among Ohio's public universities. In a more direct incident, showing how Ohio State felt about Jim Rhodes, his transcripts were mysteriously leaked to The Plain Dealer showing that he had, in reality, flunked out of Ohio State his freshman year rather than left in good standing "to support his family" as his "official biography" maintained.

The last sentence of the first paragraph in the history section makes note of this.--24.136.28.175 07:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It's important to keep in mind that OSU was founded as a land-grant university principally under the Morrill Act of 1862. The intent was to create schools for teaching agriculture, military tactics, and the mechanical arts so that members of the working classes might obtain a practical college education.[1] Research was a later mission and an extension outside the bounds of its original land grant. --Ssbohio 04:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Special projects in engineering

There is an artcle about the Buckeye Bullet -- this may also be of interest to add somewhere: DARPA vehicle. Rkevins82 15:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Communistic

Right now, the word communistic (in the first sentence) redirects to homosexuality. I'll change the redirect to communism like it is supposed to. But is that the intention of the word? If the adjective form of 'community' is meant than I'd suggest 'communital'.
John Reaves 05:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If you check older history of the page, the word is supposed to be coeducational but it was vandalized. I corrected it. ~Kruck 15:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved page

Moved page from "Ohio State University" to "The Ohio State University". Now a question and answer session:

Q. Doesn't having "The" in the title violate Naming conventions?

A. At first glance, it may appear that this is the case; however, it is not that simple. First of all, please note that this page is a guideline, NOT and official policy of wikipedia. Thus we don't necessarily have to follow it, but for the sake of preventing anarchy, I can explain the move within the pretenses of this guideline anyway.

The guideline goes on to say that the most common name should be used. If you follow the Buckeyes or other activities at the institution in the media, you will here the university referred to as "Ohio State". Of course this would not be a correct title for the page, as it is ambiguous at best. It also says a definite article may be used if it is "used in running text throughout university materials and if that usage has caught on elsewhere".

The first point is easy to prove, simply look at News and Information. I encourage all to look through and find a single example of a lack of "The" when referring to the university as a whole. Note that if some department is mentioned, they will say "Ohio State University's Geology Department." However, this page is not about the geology department, it is about the university as a whole, thus "The" should appear.

As for the second point, common usage refers to the university as "Ohio State", and as mentioned, this would not be a proper page title at all.

Q. Isn't this "The" nonsense all made up by some pundit of the university?

A. Although it may seem as such, Ohio law R.C. 3335.01 says "The educational institution originally designated as the Ohio agricultural and mechanical college shall be known as "The Ohio State University."

Q. Doesn't having the page titled with "The" penalize people for not typing it in?

A. No, as wikipedia has many redirects, including "OSU" (disambiguation), "Ohio State", and after the move, "Ohio State University".

Q. Isn't having "The" in the title rather pretentious?

A. You may think so; however, opinions should not dictate this encyclopedia. Thus although you make think graduates from this university are stuck up snobs because they always say they went to "The Ohio State University", that doesn't change the fact that the name is what it is.

Q. Didn't we discuss this before?

A. Yes, and in fact, 6 people were in favor of "The Ohio State University" and 4 people were opposed. As it happens, those opposed were especially vocal with their opinions. --Analogue Kid 19:22, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Move was requested, as it is not possible to move it on it's own.--Analogue Kid 19:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I afraid that 6 to 4 is not a consensus to move. Perhaps opening a new debate with your ideas above is in order. —Mets501 (talk) 20:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Debate away!--Analogue Kid 20:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Every Buckeye knows that "THE Ohio State University" is the official title of the university, but this article is correct in referring to the university by its proper name within the article while having the title “Ohio State University.” The simple reason for the title to withhold the “THE” is that people would look for Ohio State under “O,” especially non-buckeyes who forget the technicality. For example, the Category:Big_Ten_Conference page would list Ohio State under “T” if the title were “The Ohio State University.” It is correct to list Ohio State under “O.”

The proper name of the university needs to be emphasized, but that is already done every time it is referenced in the article. I disagree with changing the name of the article. ~Kruck 14:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

My previous argument wasn't a good one considering that category names can be corrected as in [[Category:Association of American Universities|Ohio State University, The]]. The name of the university is "The Ohio State University," so that should be the title of the article. See http://www.osu.edu and the university's logo - the proper name is "The Ohio State University." ~Kruck 14:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I support the move to The Ohio State University. That is the official name, and whenever the school is refered to by its full name (rather than "Ohio State" which is almost always used), the "The" is included. --- RockMFR 02:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

As someone who supported the move when the last serious attempt was made, I wanted to voice my opposition. There is no reason to move the page and the thousands of internal links in this article. The article makes it perfectly clear what the legal name of the university is. Inclusion of the "the" by university officials appears to be a concious branding decision, but it is not one that must be repeated here. Furthermore, it is out of place, when other universities, such as "The Ohio University" (link for official name) or "The University of Arizona" (link for official name). Rkevins82 16:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, I will repeat: Inclusion of the "The" is not a "branding decision". It is the official name of the university per the above cited Ohio law. Naming conventions state the university should be named per what it calls itself in running text. OU may officially have a definite article in its name. However, it is never mentioned here. On that page, there is no mention of "The Ohio University", however on the above Ohio State news page, the definite article is always included. As for the links to the article, it is of little significance as the links redirect to the correct title.--Analogue Kid 16:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line is: the name of the university starts with "The," and, broadly speaking, so should the name of the article. Of course, it is incumbent on the editor making the move to clean up the collateral damage, such as links that have been turned into redirects (or worse). By my estimation, there are something like 1900 internal links still pointing to Ohio State University. --Ssbohio 05:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I cleaned up all the double redirects, so there are no link stops. As far as single redirects, wikipedia has that happen all the time, and it's pretty transparent. Longer term it might be nice to have everything pointing to one page, but prior to the move, there were still approximately 300 links pointing to the "The" page.--Analogue Kid 13:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

featured article nomination

Hi, I just sent a request for feedback from Wikipedia:Peer review on the Ohio State University article. It is the first step to become a featured article on Wikipedia. Let's work together and respond to peer reviews Wikipedia:Peer_review/Ohio_State_University--140.254.115.133 10:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Naming Convention

• OK, Let's stop the frickin' madness. I've probably written the lion's share of the current Ohio State article, and when my browser shortcut directs me to a dead page...enough is enough. The whole "The" thing is getting out of hand. I understand why it was first emphasized a quarter century ago--and with good reason (in response to Jim Rhodes' attempt to dumb down the university and pretend that there was no qualitative difference between The Ohio State University and the other 12 public universities). Today, however, those reasons have long since been negated. Now, it has become simply a "chest thumpin" statement for NFL players--most of whom NEVER GRADUATED from THE university that they're bragging about! Stop this ridiculous B.S. and follow the wikipedia naming convention for every other Xxxxx State University.--Sam Harmon 05:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry you got directed to a dead page, I will fix it shortly. I'm sorry you don't like the title as it is now, but it is the proper title. Most former OSU NFL players I've heard say they went to Ohio State. Whether or not they graduated is irrelevant to this discussion. I attended this fine institution, graduated, and I fully support it being titled properly. As illustrated on the talk page, the naming conventions say in this instance that the definite article should be used, as it is used throughout the running text in university materials, and has caught on elsewhere. I.e., nobody says they went to Ohio State University, they either say they went to "Ohio State" or "The Ohio State University", tongue in cheek though it may sound. --Analogue Kid 13:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Now you are moving the goalposts. If Ohio University's official name is not important, then how is Ohio State's? They are both in the Ohio Revised Code. Rkevins82 17:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

To clairfy, the reason OU's official name is not important is because it is not used in "running text throughout university materials" (per naming conventions). In the above discussion heading, I put a link to the OU news page to show that they never refer to themselves as The Ohio University, but rather Ohio University, whereas OSU always uses the definite article on their news page (as well as other official university materials).--Analogue Kid 18:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

So the Revised Code argument is moot? You are leaving out the second part of the naming convention guideline (which is only a proposal): ...if that usage has caught on elsewhere. I doubt that you can make that argument. The local paper doesn't call use the definite article, nor do (my eclectic mix) U.S. News & World Reports in its college guide, The Lantern (school newspaper), NCAA, NNDB, Princeton Review, Encyclopedia Britannica, and ABC News. Those who do include Peterson's and a variety of university-related entities.

Looking at google, there are a little over 1 million hits for "the ohio state university" -site:osu.edu -site:ohio-state.edu, though this undoubtedly included many mentions that are not supportive of the use, as the "the" would be capitalized. The more restrictive search "the ohio state university" -site:osu.edu -site:ohio-state.edu yields well over 3 million hits. Rkevins82 05:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I can indeed make the argument that it has caught on elsewhere. My Moms Brothers Best-Friends Dogs Owners Dads Cousins Aunt always says The Ohio State University, and she's always right. (haha, just kidding) Some of those sources do indeed omit the definite article. However, mentioning the Lantern and the Dispatch doesn't work as a citation if you can't give a specific example from an article. That's not to say they're unreliable sources, just that we can't assume. Google can be confusing in this case, as when you type in "The Ohio State University", it omits the "The". A quick glance through the bookcase next to my desk reveals some more substantial evidence in the form of hard citations from reputable books and publishers. Here is what I found:

Trachtenberg, Marvin (2002). Architecture - From Prehistory to Postmodernity (2nd Edition). Prentice-Hall, Inc., and Harry N. Abrams, Inc. pp. p. 563. ISBN 0-8109-0607-4. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) This book says "At the Wexner Center for the Arts, built at The Ohio State University in 1982-89, Eisenman's..."

Lentz, Ed (1998). As It Were - Stories of Old Columbus. Red Mountain Press. pp. p. 85. ISBN 0-966-7950-0-8. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) As some of you know, Ed Lentz is a well regarded Columbus historian. He has written at least two books on Columbus (can't remember if there are more). He frequently appears on Open Line with Fred Andrle and writes a history column for This Week. In chapter 21, Lentz says "...I made the unpardonable error of remarking that this was my first visit to Ohio State University. I was rather peremptorily told that the proper name of the school was and always has been The Ohio State University."

Lyttle, Jeff (1997). Gorillas in Our Midst. Columbus, Ohio: Ohio State University Press. pp. Back Cover. ISBN 0-8142-0766-9. This book has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but since it is published by the university press, I thought it a good source. In the biography of the author, it says "Jeff Lyttle is a graduate of The Ohio State University and has worked as a professional writer...". Now before someone points out the name of the publisher, remember that we're discussing the name of the university as a whole, not of it's subdivisions which I strongly feel should not use the definite article in their titles (they don't anyway).

Mitsch, William J. (2000). Wetlands Third Edition. John Wiley & Sons, Inc. pp. p. iii. ISBN 0-471-29232-X. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Here is some pretty damming evidence. The cited page is the internal title page, with the title, authors, and publisher. Here, it says "William J. Mitsch, Professor, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio". Right below it says "James G. Gosselink, Professor Emeritus, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana.". Note that when referring specifically to Ohio State, the definite article is used, when referring to LSU, it is not. Another example you say?

Brown, Theodore L. (2000). Chemistry - The Central Science Eighth Edition. Prentice Hall. pp. p. i. ISBN 0-13-010310-1. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Yes, yes, I know its that book from that class you probably don't want to remember. But again, we find the definite article in use. The internal title page is akin to the Wetlands book above. It says "Theodore L. Brown, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign; H. Eugene LeMay, Jr., University of Nevada, Reno; and Bruce E. Bursten, The Ohio State University; With contributions from Julia R. Burdge, University of Akron". Yet again we find the institutions rightful title being utilized. One more...

Falkenberg, Barth (1987). The Ohio State University. Harmony House. pp. pp. 8, 13, 15, 17, 81, 87. ISBN 0-916509-08-7. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) Well the title pretty much says it all. In addition, the other pages cited also make use of The Ohio State University. Now a quote from page 81 from a person in the news recently: "It is a very great honor for me to be at The Ohio State University, sometimes known as the Land of the Free and the Home of Woody Hayes. I met Woody at the airport. We just had our picture taken together and when the picture appears in today's Dispatch, I'm pretty sure what the caption will say: Woody Hayes and friend. - President Gerald Ford, Commencement Address, 1974."

That about does it for my long drawn out citations. In writing this, I got to thinking as to a possible underlying cause of people's uneasiness about the title. Wikipedia has a strong and well regarded Neutral policy. Perhaps it seems that by including "the" in the title, it somehow becomes POV. I thought about this for a while, but then I came across something: The Greatest Show on Earth. Now there is a POV title if I ever heard one. And yet it remains. What else could you call it? "That one movie by those guys about a show"?--Analogue Kid 02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with User:Sam Harmon and others that the title should be "Ohio State University" and this debate seems ridiculous. There's a very clear and explicit policy regarding this exact issue. Every school with a similar name uses this convention. There's simply no reason to have moved this page, and the move should be reverted. --MZMcBride 05:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right, there is a clear and explicit policy, and I spelled out in the discussion why it should be titled as "The Ohio State University". It does not say never use it, it says use it if and only if you meet the two criteria. With all the hard citations now, is that really in doubt? Who is to say other schools are presently titled improperly because of a blanket policy that was applied to everything and it shouldn't have been? Whether or not the others are titled properly is beyond the scope of this discussion. But the policy does provide for an exception in this case.--Analogue Kid 13:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Intentionally or not, you have side-stepped the Google problem. I specified "the ohio state university" and "ohio state university," so the definite article is signigificantly more likely not to be included. The guideline says that the definite article should be included in the title only when the usage has caught on elsewhere. In this case, some places use it, while most don't. Also, there is a difference in our examples. Mine are from broadly used sources (and don't give me that argument about not specifically citing them—that is absurd), while yours are more niche. I hope some more people will join this argument. Rkevins82 19:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Analogue Kid has made some great points here, and I support the use of "The" in the university's title. The fact is that its official name is "The Ohio State University." It can be seen in a Google search for "the THE in The Ohio State University," that many people disagree with the use of the definite article, but that's another matter worth discussing within the article. ~Kruck 19:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

In this case, Google cannot be used to establish relevance due to the technical limitations of the system. As previously mentioned, when discussing a specific entity of the university, one should say "Ohio State University's Geology Department" (for example). Now when you search for just "Ohio State University", remember you are capturing all of these usages where it didn't stand alone but rather was part of a sentence describing some subdivision. I.e. it was referring to the department, not the official title of the university as a whole. Therefore, the results you get will be highly skewed, as there are probably many more mentions of specific things within the university than to the university as a whole. Broadly used sources do not necessarily make them Reliable Sources. Certainly I wouldn't argue with Britannica as a good source, but the others don't hold as much weight as printed material from a widely distributed book. I fail to see how it is absurd to cite a specific article. Both papers have been around for over a hundred years, and have written thousands of articles. Thus, how am I supposed to know for sure how they use the article? For example, even this Scathing Op/Ed piece from that city up north uses it. Other Opinion pieces such as this also use it. Here is an example of why Google picks up so many more hits without the "The". It says "Ohio State University's President". Searching further, I found another example, and another, and yet another. I too welcome any and all to contribute to the discussion. --Analogue Kid 20:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

it seems allot of emotion is wrapped up in this topic. I don't think thats productive. This decision is not that difficult. If we were uncertain of the correct spelling of a university, we would contact that university. same concept here. Give OSU's marketing department a ring and ask them: 614-292-4272 or check their website: [[2]] this particular page makes a total of 8 references to "THE Ohio State University" and zero to "Ohio State University". Would anyone here argue that the band The The should get moved to The (band) ? I doubt it. For that matter, under this argument, shouldn't The Band just be listed as Band (band)? Obviously, I support keeping the article at "The Ohio State University" as labeling it anything else is simply incorrect. Stuph 04:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Count me for Ohio State University. The Band is always called as such. The Ohio State University is rarely called as such by anyone who does not work for the university. Wikipedia has a policy of using common names, not using official names, and with respect to articles, we only use them in things like titles of literary works. Ohio State University is universally recognizable, non-ambiguous, and the way people who aren't pretentious Ohio State homers refer to the place. Note also George Washington University, where many of the same arguments were hashed out, and we ended up with, well George Washington University. john k 07:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Also note that we have a naming convention about this at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)#Universities, which says not to use direct articles. john k 07:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

a direct quote from the naming conventions page:

If such usage is prevalent on university press releases and press kits, contact information, "about" pages, and internal department websites, and it is reasonably common in external sources, then it is more appropriate to name the Wikipedia article The University of X.

Thus, until someone brings forth evidence of Ohio State University being used MORE than The Ohio State University, the conventions page supports the move to The Ohio State University.

A list of uses by credited sources other than the university itself:

• http://www.petersons.com/ugchannel/code/InstVC.asp?inunid=7934&sponsor=1
• http://www.wexarts.org/
• http://www.thelantern.com/
• http://www.princetonreview.com/mba/research/profiles/schoolsays.asp?category=1&listing=1011056&LTID=2&intbucketid=

Stuph 16:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The text you are quoting is a proposed substitution, not the actual current policy. As to credited sources that use "Ohio State University" rather than "the Ohio State University", Google gives 4.3 million of them, as compared to only 1 million or so for "The Ohio State University". Also check out the 28,700 hits that don't include the direct article on OSU's own website. The comparable figures for "The Ohio state University" on OSU's site is 165,000, but note that this includes many instances where you'd always right that - "The Ohio state University School of Law" and such. At any rate, the general rule is not to use articles. john k 23:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Googling misconception has already been addressed by Analogue Kid. Referring to "Ohio State University's Geology Department," for example, is a Google hit for "Ohio State University." It does not refer to the entire university, which is the topic of this article. I am an Ohio State University engineering student. I attend THE Ohio State University. Your Googling strategy would say I call OSU "Ohio State University" as often as "THE Ohio State University." This is not correct. ~Kruck 05:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no googling misconception, because it works both ways - one also has "The Ohio State University School of Law," and so forth. There is no particular reason to think this issue affects the one side more than the other. john k 06:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

To clarify my google note, I agree with what john k said; it shouldn't be used at all in this debate as there are too many variables in writing style to know what the hits are referring to one way or the other. I see in an above post that it was said that people who refer to the university using the definite article are pretentious. This is a borderline personal attack on those who favor using "The". Remember, the issue is not people from the university, it is naming conventions. Let's keep the discussion centered on that issue and not what we might think of those who've attended.

Two more points I'd like to emphasize again: 1. Naming conventions are a Guideline, NOT a rule. There are only 5 firm rules. 2. The naming conventions do NOT say the definite article should never be used. They spell out pretty specifically when it should be allowed. Using Reliable Sources, I have spelled out why it should be "The Ohio State University". Is there any argument over the fact that common usage refers to the university as "Ohio State"? Obviously we can't call it by this name, thus we go with the official and next most common name as shown by my numerous citations. --Analogue Kid 07:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

There are two versions of the naming convention. One of them would suggest (but not necessarily mandate) The Ohio State University. The other pretty clearly says Ohio State University. It is the latter that is currently in plain text, and appears so far as I can tell, to be th guideline. The former is a "proposed new version", which has seemingly not been adopted. Let me repeat the text of what appears to be the current guideline:

The definite article should not be used for universities, even if the official name of the university uses the definite article, as indicated on the website links below.

Note also the large number of other articles on universities that call themselves "The University of X", but where the article is not located there. We need to resolve this issue at the level of the naming conventions, I think. john k 17:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it seems that the naming conventions are flawed as they currently stand. Looking at that talk page, it appears that there was no consensus arrived when originally formulating them. It may have been assumed that common usage never uses the definite article, which is not the case here. The proposed conventions would allow the definite article based on the evidence presented here. There is probably no point in continuing this discussion until the naming conventions are agreed upon, as one can honestly argue that "Ohio State University" meets the naming conventions, even though it is incorrect. --Analogue Kid 20:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

"Ohio State University" is not incorrect, it is merely less formal than "The Ohio State University". It is incorrect to state that "Ohio State University" is the formal name of the school. But it is not incorrect to call the school "Ohio State University," any more than it is incorrect to call it "Ohio State." We should not confuse "informal name" with "incorrect name." john k 16:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The Google test that I used is appropriate and I can explain it further if necessary. I would keep Ohio State University in line with the other universities that eschew the definite article and the majority of common users (Google test). I am glad that some more people are joining the discussion and hope more will in the future. In the meantime, we should continue on the the Talk page for Ohio State University. Rkevins82 20:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I would like to support having the article located at "The Ohio State University." Clearly, the official name of the shcool is The Ohio State University; it seems that everyone is in agreement on that. The next questions seem to be (1) what do Wikipedia naming conventions suggest would be appropriate? and (2) which phrase is most commonly used to refer to the school, "Ohio State University" or "THE Ohio State University"? It is my opinion that (1) Wikipedia naming conventions would definitely allow for the use of "The" in the article title since it is part of the university's official title and that (2) which usage is more common is irrelevant to this debate. Although Wikipedia makes important and valuable concessions to "common usage" arguments, these concessions are only valuable when there is no definitively right or wrong answer. In this case, however, it is clear that to refer to the university as simply "Ohio State University" is unquestionably incorrect, and so whether this is the common usage or not is irrelevant. The article should be moved to "The Ohio State University" for the sake of accuracy and correctness. Dave Runger (talk) 01:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ohio State University which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:29, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ohio State University which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:01, 8 January 2024 (UTC)