Talk:The Loe

Loe Pool markers

can anyone tell me wot the three granite stones with metal rods about 3 feet high are. they are spaced out around the lake. at firt i thought they were lightning conducters. if you serc through webb site of loe pool pics one can be seen if you blow up the pic. as a result of my search i discovered that glass was made by harnessing lightning. also when lightning hits sand it produces sumfin called a fulgerite in the form of a glass tube. in the natural hstory museum london there is intact example 2storeys high.john ripley kent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.57.21 (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Contradictions

31st May, 2011. I have edited the page to try and resolve the contradictions with the River Cober page. Being new to this, I would like to know if I can remove the contradition box?Jowaninpensans (talk) 15:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Well done, good work! Generally, when you feel you have done sufficient work to rectify a cleanup template message then feel free to remove it. In this case this contradiction message spans two articles - so you have to make sure the cleanup work fixes both of them, ensuring that the information is verifiable. I'd say that at the moment there is still a contradiction as the River Cober article mentions the ice age as the reason for Loe bar's creation, whereas The Loe article only mentions longshore drift - it's unclear whether these are linked/the same or not.

Also, I see that the River Cober artcle is rather poorly written, as it appears that an ip editor just tried to refute the information already contained with this edit. Perhaps you could see if this is true and add any necessary references, as you appear to have knowledge of geology/natural history! Any questions, please ask. Cheers, Zangar (talk) 18:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that most written material (even the NT information boards) and local people state, as a matter of fact, that Loe Bar was formed in the C13. But I have never seen a reasonable source for this 'fact'. I think the reasoning for this belief is that people in Helson bought the harbour rights for Gweek, therefore they could no longer use Helston as a port. The two recent Cornwall Geology books mention the post-Ice Age in a few sentences.Jowaninpensans (talk) 12:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC).

Formation of Loe Bar

Once again (on 8 May 2014) I have removed a citation, this time from The Fortunate Islands i.e. The Isles of Scilly, about a "mythical inundation". My copy of that book does not give any information on an inundation in Mount's Bay (on page 36 or any other page that I can see). There are no records of a harbour at Helston because the bar was already there in historical times. The fact that there are mooring rings is not proof of a harbour, boats can be moored on lakes. Geologists and geomorphologists only commit to sometime after the last ice age and do not give a specific date in the 11th century. Jowaninpensans (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Jowan from Pensans,

It is to your credit that you keep your Cornish name for 'John' and particularly that for Penzance. However, as to the notion that I may be making things up about Helston, you are, may I respectfully state, gravely outnumbered. The butcher, Mr. Dale, from Helston only mentioned what he actually saw outside of his shop as to strips of wood down the excavated part of St. Johns road near sea level. He had no bias toward the port or particular interest in it; but a known Helston historian, Mr. P. Carroll stated that evidence of slipways for boats/ships were seen there with mooring rings in the area. Thank you for removing the entry as to the Loe Bar deposits being 'tentatively dated from Eocene', because that was the most flagrant error presented on Wikipedia sites for the area. I request to see the bases of these geomorphological assumptions that defy all logic given the facts of the area and the English names of the shallows in Mounts Bay, one of which is Carn Mallows, from the Red Ward Lock guide of Pensans, around 1950. The lack of reproduction of these original names is part of the basis for the confusion. My username is backwards, simply because my password was repeatedly refused. However, my concern is also for the credibility of these Wikipedia sites, since these Geomorpholists' conjectures are totally unfounded in the light of present findings; they are normally right, but not in this area. If I stated that the upper harbour of Helston was in the area below 'the Tubban' by Penhellaz Hill (that I believed but found out myself), it would have also been error. We cannot state what we wish to be or what suits me personally, it must be the truth.

Kind Regards, Andrew (Helston's mediaeval amateur historian)

P.S. I shall get the confirmation from the celebrated Historian, Mr. Martin Matthews that the Loe Bar flint sand was mainly from under Mounts Bay and that the bar did not exist until well after 1014 at which time Mounts Bay was inundated. I have a branch in my shed that was washed up from the 1860's trees that were still visible somewhere around the Greeb. A

Above is written by Andrew and copied from my Userpage, below is written by Jowaninpensans (talk) 21:55, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• With regards to the excavations at St John. Have you got a reference for the report that must have been written? I would be interested to see what the archaeologists views are. If I want to buy meat I do not visit an archaeologist, likewise if I want the views on an excavation I do not visit the butchers.
• As I have said before lakes can have slipways and mooring rings – such as in the Lake District.
• What is your evidence that "the Eocene date is a most flagrant error"? The paper I refer to says the English Channel. There may be deposits in Mount's Bay but the paper does not mention them. It says they come from the river that use to flow down the English Channel. If Helston library does not have a copy, try the Cornish Library at Redruth.
• I do not think the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is a suitable reference for the formation of Loe Bar; certainly from the translations I have seen!

Andrew, if you decide to reply please do so below and not within what I have written and please do not write on my User page. Cheers Jowaninpensans (talk) 21:55, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

---

Below is copied from my talkpage.

Dear Mr. Jowan, A gentleman by the name of Wood from Exeter university is to visit me at Helston museum next Tuesday to discuss the formation of the Loe Bar off Helston; and during the next two weeks I am planning to visit the records office in Old County Hall Truro to search for any records of the findings of shipping slipways whilst excavating under St. Johns Road, Helston, that was recorded in the local newspapers at the time, in the early 1980s. It was from their explorations that the common notion of Helston being a port was established. However, there is definitely more truth in the fact that Loe Bar could not have blocked the Ria until well after 1014: it was much smaller in mediaeval times. Toy's History of Helston pp. 381 to 385. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk • contribs) 17:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC) I look forward to seeing some reliable references for a harbour. Jowaninpensans (talk) 16:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Below is copied from my talk page 21 June 2014 Jowaninpensans (talk) 16:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

<Andrew>Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2014 (UTC)User talk:Andrew 21 June 2014. After the 24th June I shall know the verity of the Geomorphologists conjectures about Mount's Bay and the Loe pool. Currently, the evidence I have is much more tenable than theirs; but Mr. Neil Wood is to discuss it with me about noon on Tuesday. Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2014 (UTC)AndrewUser:Andrew

Formation of Loe Bar (2)

• the-hell-of-high-water-tsunami-and-the-cornish-coast is interesting but I do not see how User:Werdna Yrneh Yarg can continually interpret it as being evidence for the formation of Loe Bar in historical times. It is a misrepresentation of Prof Simon Haslett's work on tsunami's. I have also returned the referenced material about Daniel Defoe's visit. There is no known archaeological evidence for the existence of a port at Helston and there is no primary evidence to support Defoe’s account – see article for reference.
• I will continue to remove unreferenced material about buried hooks as evidence for a harbour at Helston. Even if they were used for mooring boats, and you have not provided any evidence for that use, lakes have boats.
• Cornwall Archaeological Society do not mention a harbour in their journals. Perhaps it is time for User:Werdna Yrneh Yarg (in his various guises) to stop repeating the same old material again and again. Jowaninpensans (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Dear Jowan,

Thank you for your answer. The only 'guise' you refer to is when I have not bothered to log with the one user name that has been accepted. My due apologies for contributing any material that has not been supported by others, although my policy is only to contribute what either I know or have found as evidence regarding local sites. Now, what concerned me most was the flagrant change from the information as to the Bar formation, in both the Cober and the Loe sites where the information initially tied up - before I even knew anything about Wikipedia sites. Someone, about four years ago, without providing any citation or evidence counter stated the main information as to the formation of Loe Bar, which merely confuses the minds of readers. This you helpfully sorted out in a balanced way. Neither Stephanie Russell nor the Geomorphologists have provided any evidence to satisfy the minds of readers as to an approximate date of this formation. Indeed, in around 1976 according to the National Trust for The Loe Bar and pool, testing was carried out at the base of the pool and cores were extracted from the lake bed; and conclusion was made from their pollen that the landscape in historical time was dominated by pasture, but with more woodland than at present. This seems to suggest that the Loe pool is of relatively recent geological origin. If I could make an analogy, although hypothetical; if I were to obtain a post graduate degree in geomorphology and put out my views as to the sea encroaching Mounts Bay about 1700 BCE and remaining there ever since, and you, as local in Penzance know that Mount Amopus, Carn Mallows, the Great Row and Iron Gates were all hills eroded down by the sea and also towns drowned, I would hope that you would reject my views. I certainly realise that it was under water in 2344 BCE; but that is not just the word of man: man recorded it as delegated from the word of God.

High regards, Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 08:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)AndrewWerdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 08:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Suggest you get your material published in a reputable journal. Jowaninpensans (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 08:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)AndrewWerdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 08:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Thank you. I shall endeavour to do that. I never intended to take up this task, but due to so much uncertainty (not in the least due to geomorphological reports), with some and hard core belief with those initiated in Helston I became determined to find evidences myself; the first attested ones being in August 2012. I had to walk all along Nansloe lane until I found sufficient archaeological evidence there. My next task is to uncover the sand at the foot of Chyvarloe lane. If this lane finishes there, then it proves nothing as to the Bar, but if it continues under the Bar (toward the sea) that is a proof I need. Should I take a lecture at Helston museum this August, I intend to take on the role of a geomorphogist with comparisons of other coastal areas. Using a significance level of 1% for the initiated that may be present and 0.5 as the probability on both sides we shall see by the end of the lecture whether the null hypothesis as to the Bar being formed before the 13th century is acceptable or should be rejected. I believe that this is the only fair way to approach this question. I have, of course, typed out a four page document on my findings, now at the museum.

High regards, Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 08:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)AndrewWerdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 08:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs references to reliable published sources. DuncanHill (talk) 09:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

References

The Loe

Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 21:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)Werdna Yrneh YargWerdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) Thank you for removing that inclusion of the supposed depth of Loe pool as being 6 metres maximum, because that is quite untrue! A mediaeval map of Mount's Bay depicts only one arm of the sea entering the bay.

The removal was a mistake on my part. I meant to remove some of the ridiculous material you have put on the page recently, i.e. A mediaeval map of Mount's Bay depicts only one arm of the sea entering the bay.[clarification needed]The Cober flowed under the Bar, but there is no proven evidence for its formation before the 13th century. The 2013 investigations show a chart of a cross-section of part of Loe Bar being sand and silt, upon layers of peat from the remains of the ancient forest, that once covered Mount's Bay. Jowaninpensans (talk) 22:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry to have to state this, but your last comment is your opinion; and those how know most about Helston and the Bar formation would confirm that what you deleted leaves the article in its true light for readers, completing the necessary changes. If you had removed the last sentence I would have considered it a complete insult to Mr. Neil Wood, who is the most trustworthy source for this information. Please forgive my strong language, but I believe that you along with oneself desire to leave the site in its most accurate form; and this is what you have done! I have to mention this as I do not want to lose respect for you, but that would have been the effect with others if you had deleted what you intended to do. Helstonians are not easily caught out when it comes to aspects that are established. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk • contribs) 00:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 21:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)Werdna Yrneh YargWerdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 21:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Opinion!

• A mediaeval map of Mount's Bay depicts only one arm of the sea entering the bay. Does not make sense in my opinion! And mediaeval maps are not renown for accuracy!
• The Cober flowed under the Bar, but there is no proven evidence for its formation before the 13th century. What is your evidence for the Cober flowing under the bar? The outflow is through the adit and through the Bar, not a river under it! There no evidence for its formation after the 13th century either. The only person who seems to put a date on it is Werdna Yrneh Yarg!
• The 2013 investigations show a chart of a cross-section of part of Loe Bar being sand and silt, upon layers of peat from the remains of the ancient forest, that once covered Mount's Bay. What investigations and by whom? What were the methods? How have they proven that the peat is the remains of ancient forest? Was the investigations approved by the relevant managers of the land? This information should be published in a reputable journal. Anyone with an agenda can write a dvd or website!

Furthermore Toy's model for the formation of Loe Bar is disregarded by those who study landforms i.e. geologists and geomorphologist. Toy's work is out-of-date!

If you have anymore to add, please position it below what I have written, not in amongst the above – as per wikipedia convention! Jowaninpensans (talk) 08:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

2013 investigations

Below, in italics, was written by User:Werdna Yrneh Yarg.

The 2013 investigations show a chart of a cross-section of part of the valley between Loe Bar and Helston as being built from 25 feet of silt upon 7 feet of sand, above layers of peat from the remains of vegetation or of the ancient forest, that once covered Mount's Bay.

I have a number of issues with these investigations.

1. Who is the author?
2. The title of the written report?
3. Were they authorised by the National Trust?
4. The url on the Penrose estate blog?
5. What is the evidence for the peat to be formed from ancient woodland?

For clarity and following wikipedia protocol please write your answers below and not amongst what I have written! Jowaninpensans (talk) 13:01, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

User:194.60.136.6 (talk) 15:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Andrew194.60.136.6 (talk) 15:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC) Thank you for transferring the remaining sentences to where they belong; because they are not a myth or legend.

1. The author is a lecturer (Dan Nicholls, I think his name is, but I need to confirm this), from Exeter university.
2. The title of the DVD written report is, 'Could Helston have been a port'. Here, I need to state that Mr. Neil Wood, when presenting this project to the master degree Camborne School of Mines students, expected them to find that Helston could not have been a port. He was completely unbiased, as also the other lecturer, and balanced all views from the geomorphologists and other local records, using Li-dar and other equipment to assess the foundations of the valley and is the most reliable and up-to-date resource for these investigations. The chart diagram of this depth actually showed 7 feet of sea sand below the 25 feet depth of silt. This equates with the shingle found under Flora Motors, when digging for a foundation of rock. Although the conclusion stated that Helston could have been a port, the depth of silt had to be at least by 6 metres for this to be practical and also there must be evidence of remains of buildings, (already seen) along by Nansloe for archaeological proof.
3. They were certainly authorised by the National Trust and also had permission from the Penrose estate.
4. This basis for the formation of peat was derived from your Wikipedia site on PEAT.
5. An url for Penrose and the Lizard is http://www.lizardandpenrose.blogspot.co.uk/.

Last evening I have discovered that the left branch of the foot of Chyvarloe lane leads underneath the Bar, implying that the Bar was formed over it. This has become a very involved subject due to a number of reasons: 1. The Geomorphologists' conjectures (normally correct), if their ideas were evidence, they would be able to cite other bays or beaches where the flint sand was washed up between Loe Bar and the perceived drowned terraces around 120 miles away. There is no proof either that, during the roughly 250 years of sea encroachment, the flint sand was washed up from under Mounts Bay. 2. The configuration of Nansloe Valley and the site of the 1208 church (reckoned to be built upon the site of a "'lan' = monastic cell" here), according to Mr. Derek Kneebone (researcher for Helston Old Cornwall Society), and according to others, signify the area of an inland port as being commonly situated in such an area in Roman times.

Neither take into account the date of Mounts Bay's indundation. The first mention of St. Michael's Mount as such, according to Padel, is in the mid-eleventh century, and no one has come up with any proof for the existence of the sea there before 1014 AD. If Helston had a port 2,000 years ago its depth would have had to be as deep as the sea just beyond the limit of Mounts Bay forest! Currently there is no evidence for this. This means that, although I find that DVD as providing the most reliable and up-to-date information, the drowning of Mounts Bay, including hills up to nearly 2 miles beyond Marazion in the sea, compared with 2 furlongs walk to the Mount, has not been taken into consideration. Therefore, that minimum of 20 foot depth of silt must have accumulated over the past 800 years for Helston to have been a port. Also, in answer to your mildly put statement that there is no evidence of the Bar being thrown up after the 13th century, the evidences are clear that it was thrown up either completely (except for occasional breaches by the River Cober) or partially before the 14th century, since, according to Toy, the lake is mentioned both in 1302 and 1272, if the latter date be accurate. Yesterday, I also visually witnessed that the Bar width is twice that which is depicted in the c1700 etched picture in Helston museum. From the houses of Chyvarloe a pool was seen in 1235, because the name 'Tywarlo', as it was then, means 'house above the pool' = LO, at that time. Therefore at least during low tide the Bar must have separated it from the sea. If this name were applicable by 1015, then sea going ships were only able to access the estuary at Helston during high tides; however there is no evidence for this.

Unfortunately, I can see the whole picture of how the port was formed, together with the evidences that I witnessed myself. Even the formation of the Bar presents no problems for me, like the beaches at Praa (Prah, as it should read) and Perranuthnoe when the shingle and pebbles were thrown up over night! Is it not significant that the first mention of the River Cober was dated as in 1260, the first mention of St. John's Bridge was in 1260, the Helstonians were reckoned to have bought in their shipping rites from Gweek in 1260; and the first record of anyone from Penrose estate was after 1270? I realise that earlier records could have been lost and that there were no printing facilities then - that also possibly explains the absence of customs' records - although some mention of 'lestage', meaning room for storage, lading or cargo, is to be seen in the 1201 charter by King John. However, I wished to balance my findings with other views (and contrasting evidences that I have not yet seen!)

Not only for the sake of the readers, but for your sake, I hope that this can quickly come to a final resolution - the valuable time that you felt that you needed to waste on all this is phenominal! Perhaps these sites can be left to mellow now. I would, however, like to take this opportunity to thank you for all your recent additions on the fauna and other creatorial formations there.

Kind Regards,

Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)AndrewWerdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)