Talk:The Lamb (Tavener)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:The Lamb (Tavener)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Your Power (talk · contribs) 08:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Pleasure to be working with you :) If you have the time and effort for a QPQ, Talk:Smoking on My Ex Pack (a 2022 song by SZA) could use a GAN review as well! ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ ^{💬 "Will you call me?"}
_{📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"} 08:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Your Power, thanks so much for the review! Responses to your comments are below. Do let me know if you have any questions. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 18:52, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Round 1

Let's get the easy stuff out of the way

• The article has not been edited in a while, so I'd say it's as stable as it can get.
• Two images are both scanned from books published in the 18th/19th century, making them suitable for use here (PD works). Captions are ok
• Earwig returns no red flags plagiarism-wise.
• Article is a bit on the short side, but the structure makes sense, and I do not see any major gaps in information. Although I am a bit curious - have there been more, if any, contemporary/retrospective reviews of this composition? It would help round out the "Legacy" section IMO.
  • I did a pretty extensive search for contemporary criticism and I think I've captured the main view from reliable sources. You'll find a lot of criticism in non-reliable sources, like choral programme notes and music blogs. If needed, I could dig out some quotes from the existing sources.
• Focused and does not stray away from the subject significantly. The paragraphs for each section are relevant to the respective topics.
• Citations and sources sections look fine. None of those publishers are a red flag to me.

Round 2

This will be more prose-focused. Comments to follow

It looks great and well-written. Everything is written in a professional tone, each sentence and paragraph flows smoothly and cohesively, and for the most part MOS:WORDSTOWATCH is followed. Really I have but the most minor quibbles about it.

• You enclose "The Lamb" (the poem) in double quotations and italicize it in others. Be consistent.
  • Done.
• Would a link to Christmas Eve and Christmas be appropriate? Not all of our readers will be in a place or cultural context where that is celebrated.
  • Done.
• "the pairing of lamb the animal of the Lamb of God" should it not be the "lamb the animal with the Lamb of God" ?
  • Yep, thank you! Fixed.
• Some parts where you can be more concise:
  • "His early education was centred around avant-garde techniques,"
    • Done.
  • "third birthday present" it is unclear if this is referring to a present given on Simon's third birthday, or the third present he received for his birthday. I doubt the kid's age at the time is important really, so it can be safely removed.
    • I have changed to "It was written in 1982 as a birthday present for his three-year-old nephew" - is that ok?
  • "composed without the intention of commercial success" - you already use "written" earlier in the sentence, which in this context is synonymous.
    • Thanks, changed.
  • "no copies are known to have survived" -> "no known copies have survived"
    • Done.
  • "Tavener was inspired by the text after looking through Blake's poetry and reading The Lamb: Tavener said 'I read the words, and immediately I heard the notes'." -> "Inspired by 'The Lamb' while reading Blake's poetry, Tavener said 'I read the words, and immediately I heard the notes.' "
    • Changed,
  • "The choral writing is homophonic throughout" -> If the writing is homophonic, surely that already implies it is homophonic throughout?
    • Not necessarily. Many choral pieces use a mixture of polyphony and homophony, so the fact that the piece is entirely homophonic is noteworthy I'd argue.
  • "...used throughout the rest of the piece, which demonstrates Tavener's interest..." -> "... demonstrating Tavener's interest"
    • Done.
  • "of the soprano's melody in bar 1" -> since we're only at the second bar, readers can already glean from context clues which "soprano's melody" the article is referring to.
    • We should specify that it is the soprano's melody in b.1. Otherwise, we could be implying that the alto's melody is an exact inversion of the soprano's melody in b.2, or indeed any bar.
  • "The soprano line in bar 3 utilises notes from both the alto and soprano bars from the previous two bars" - self-explanatory.
    • Sorry, that should be the alto and soprano parts from the previous two bars", I have corrected that. We should specify that it uses notes from both the soprano and alto - that is a significant point because the soprano and alto line have such different notes.
  • "As well as being a popular piece sung at Christmas time" -> "on Christmas" is more concise, unless you mean it is sung all Christmas season ?
    • Have changed to "throughout the Christmas season".
• "Bar 4 is a retrograde of bar 3" just curious - do we have an appropriate WL for retrograde?
  • Yep! Thanks, have linked.

Round 3

This one will be more source-focused. I have chosen to review your citations for the following sources; comments later:

• Cramer, Alfred W., ed. (2009). Musicians and Composers of the 20th Century. Vol. 5. United States: Salem Press. ISBN 978-1-58765-517-3.
  • Overall comment: the book cites "Kelly A. Huff" as the writer for the John Tavener section. Perhaps you can incorporate this into the citation
    • Thanks for spotting! Done.
  • First citation: ok, but you must be citing the wrong page because I cannot find His early education centred around avant-garde techniques, but his musical language developed into a more minimalistic style anywhere in 1467. Perhaps you mean to cite 14'76'?
    • On p.1467 it says "His study of composition with Lumsdaine focused upon complicated avant-garde techniques, and Tavener eventually drifted away from contemporary technique in favor of a type of minimalism that reflect a profound sense of spirituality."
      • That quotation is from p. 1476 like I said. 1467 focuses on Tōru Takemitsu. - Elias
        • Got it, apologies - thank you! Fixed.
  • Second: good. Page says "It was written in one afternoon in 1982, as a birthday gift for his nephew"
  • Third: good. Page says "The text is William Blake's poem of the same title, published in his 1789 book... Scored for unaccompanied chorus..."
  • Fourth: Ditto with third.
  • Fifth: Okay I guess, but there's no SATB mentioned here. I'm probably being dense, but in these contexts, if someone just says "choir", is it usually assumed theyre referring to a SATB choir?
    • In this context it is definitely SATB - as per Wikiproject Classical music guidelines, this statement probably doesn't need a citation because that fact is obvious from the score. Happy to remove if that makes things clearer.
      • Nah nah I think it's fine. Some things just don't need to be cited because they're extremely common and banal knowledge for the relevant field. Such as this one. Thank you for the explanation. - Elias
  • Sixth: Good. The page says "The Lamb contains numerous manipulations of an economic melodic idea set to simple harmonies and beautifully treated dissonances, all declaimed in homophonic texture." I will assume the "largely syllabic word-setting" bit is cited to Pearson, no?
    • Yes that's right.
  • Seventh: Good; ditto with 6
  • Eighth: I assume the "contains numerous manipulations of an economic melodic idea" is being used to cite for this? If so, good
    • That's right.
  • Ninth: Good. Page says "it has remained one of his most frequently performed works", straightforward enough
• Haydon, Geoffrey (1998) [First published in 1995]. John Tavener : Glimpses of Paradise. Great Britain: Indigo. ISBN 0-575-40191-5.
  • Overall comment: author seems reliable; if I'm not mistaken he seems to be a music professor in a university at the moment.
  • First citation: Excellent! Page says "John has always been diligent about providing occasional pieces for family and friends: musical bonbons to celebrate birthdays... One... began as a present for John's nephew Simon, when he was three."
  • Second: Yep. Page says "The Lamb was first performed, as part of the Carol Service in Winchester Cathedral, on 22 December 1982. Then, on Christmas Eve, it was broadcast from King's College, Cambridge."
  • Third: Good. Page says "John remembers how it came into his head, fully grown... 'I read the words, and immediately I heard the notes.'"
  • Fourth: A bit on the fence with this one. "The Lamb has since become a staple of church choirs and choral societies all over the country [the UK]." To simply say "has been a popular piece of church music" implies a worldwide reach, which is somewhat misleading to what the quotation says. The other citation is to Need 2020, and since I cannot access that one, may you please provide the relevant quotation and page number that says the piece was popular, broadly construed? If it was popular only in the UK then you should tweak the sentence to better reflect that.
    • The relevant quotation from Need 2020 is: "[The Lamb] has come to typify Tavener's style and character as a composer: a scintillating blend of traditional and modern harmony with just enough dissonance to enable the piece to become accepted in the popular market. It has gained quite considerable ground over the years after being chosen more than once as the modern piece sung at the annual Christmas Eve King's College Cambridge Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols. Gradually The Lamb has become fully accepted as a respected piece in the modern classical choral repertoire." So no mention of specifically the UK, so I assume it's ok to keep the article as is?
      • For a GAN I'll let this slide. - Elias
  • Fifth: Good. page 162 says "He calls it the 'joy-sorrow' chord. He used it first as the penultimate chord in Funeral Ikos", and page 170 says "this Fos chord [used in Ikon of Light] turns out to be none other than the joy-sorrow chord"
• Terry, Paul (2006). A Student's Guide to A2 Music for the Edexcel Specification. Great Britain: Rhinegold Publishing Ltd. ISBN 978-1-904226-87-1.
  • Nothing suspicious I can find about the author and publisher.
  • First citation: Good. The page says "in the second bar the trebles repeat the first melody while the altos sing an exact inversion of it."
  • Second: "In bar 3 the melody starts with four pitches from the soprano part of [bar 2], and ends with three pitches from the alto part of that bar. Bar 3 is then repeated in retrograde order to form bar 4. Bars 5-6 are formed from pitches in the two previous bars by exchanging cells of three notes in normal and inverted form..." I don't see the "G-B-A-F sharp followed by E flat-F-A flat" bit in the text - unless it's in the next page or the example picture, in which case forgive me as I cannot read sheet music and the next page does not have a preview on my end
    • No problem. The notes are somewhat inferred through the source but I agree it's not explicit. The soprano notes in Ex.2 are the same as in b.3, but you wouldn't necessarily know that without hearing the piece. I have changed the article to better reflect the source.
  • Third: good. Page reads "In bars 7-10, the opening one-bar melody is presented four times in succession ... in a four-voice homophonic texture. The music in these bars is based entirely on the aeolian mode..."
  • Fourth: I suppose it's okay, given the composition is being discussed in the Edexcel reviewer.
• Tavener, John (1999). Keeble, Brian (ed.). The Music of Silence : a Composer's Testament. London ; New York: Faber and Faber. ISBN 0-571-20088-5.
  • Overall comment: since this is the composer talking about the background behind this work this is ok for use.
  • First citation: great. Page specifically says "Within a quarter of an hour, the piece was finished"
  • Second: good. Page says "It was a day in late October and I rang up Chester's and they said, 'Oh, they'll have the Carol Service completely planned by now, no way will they do it' ... Anyway, they sent it and, by Jove, immediately Stephen Cleobury saw it, he said, 'We're doing it'."
• Vincent, Alice (12 November 2013). "Sir John Tavener, Composer, Dies Aged 69". The Telegraph. Retrieved 27 December 2022.
  • Overall comment: The Telegraph is generally reliable
  • First citation: ok. The source reads "Sir John composed a choral setting of William Blake's poem The Lamb in 1982, which subsequently became a popular Christmas carol" which matches the article.

Oh, also, sorry - should have asked this earlier. I'm not really familiar with the reliability of Pearson Education reviewers for (what I think are) GCE exams ? Looking at their Wikipedia page I have some suspicions... what makes them reliable to use for GA in this context? It feels like an important question to ask as well given how much this is used in the article.

• You're right - The Lamb was (and maybe still is) a set piece for the Edexcel Music GCE (or A level) exam. Edexcel is an exam board and is an imprint of Pearson. The Pearson source used in the article is a study guide for the Edexcel Music GCE exam, so can be trusted to include accurate information about the piece. Hope that helps!
  • Thanks for the explanation. I read some of the information that was cited to the reviewer and much of it I could find in the other sources used in the article. So I suppose there's no reason for me to hound you further about it

• Alright, source review done. From what I have noticed, the usage of sources is on par with GA quality. Thoroughly reviewing the references further confirmed that there were no copyright violations or plagiarism happening; policies on OR and verifiability have been followed to a welcome degree. Although I have a couple pretty small concerns/requests for clarification about some citations. Such comments have been underlined for your convenience

Overall

Overall, well done on the article! Just a few things to iron out wrt sources, but I'd say it is pretty much close to passing. Loved reading the prose; you have a way with words. Since I am not super familiar with the topic area, please correct me in any misguided suggestions I have written here.

 On hold. ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ ^{💬 "Will you call me?"}
_{📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"} 08:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Your Power, thanks again for the thorough review :) I have hopefully answered all of your comments were necessary. Hope it's all helpful. Let me know if you need anything else from me. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 11:36, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

And thank you @Unexpectedlydian for the prompt responses! Only one more concern left to be addressed then we can wrap this up :) ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ ^{💬 "Will you call me?"}
_{📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"} 11:59, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh, re. "The soprano notes in Ex.2 are the same as in b.3, but you wouldn't necessarily know that without hearing the piece." That is where short audio samples to illustrate the melody would come in handy :) See WP:SAMPLE for guidance on how to add them. However, I would like to stress that this is absolutely not a GA requirement and would not hinder the article's progression into passing. ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ ^{💬 "Will you call me?"}
_{📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"} 12:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Your Power, I think I've addressed the final comment Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 14:59, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@Unexpectedlydian, that was quick! Thank you so much for addressing the comments swiftly, once again. The article has now passed GA. It has been a pleasant experience reviewing one of your stuff, so I look forward to working with you again hopefully on Smoking on My Ex Pack as mentioned earlier ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ ^{💬 "Will you call me?"}
_{📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"} 19:08, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.