Talk:The Kinks' 1965 UK tour/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Premeditated Chaos (talk · contribs) 21:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Dibs on band drama. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

These comments are made assuming you're heading for FAC. As usual I'm open to discussion, and I won't badger you for anything that's beyond the GACR.

Lead

• "Following recent major..." I feel you could trim some unnecessary words from this sentence. "the tour was the Kinks' first as the headline act" or something similar for that middle clause.

• I adjusted the middle clause and cut the entire first clause completely.

• Also, does that mean they were only a supporting act for world tour phase 1? Could we say so?

• I reworked it all to this: After the Kinks had served as a support act during all of their previous tours, including during the first leg of their world tour, the 1965 UK engagements were the band's first as the headline act. Supporting acts included Goldie and the Gingerbreads and the Yardbirds.

Background

• Can we swap the order of the paragraphs here? The current first seems like it more logically comes after the second.

• Agreed. Swapped.

• I think it might be worth mentioning in-text that the Kinks weren't the headliner for phase 1 of their world tour, rather than in a footnote

• Moved from note into body.

Repertoire

• Is "compèred" BrEng, or technically distinct somehow? The reason I ask is that it's an unusual word to use for "hosted" or "emceed"

• I thought so too, but it is the word used by Hinman, probably because it appeared as such on posters advertising concerts (See here at the poster's bottom). I'm not really sure why the term was used in place of something English, but I thought it best to stick to the source.

• Paragraph two could use a split somewhere. Maybe at the Yardbirds, since there's quite a bit about them.

• Done.

• I'm not sure the paragraph about reception belongs in this section

• I wasn't really sure where to put it because, as you allude to in the point below, there is not much to write about this tour beyond the fighting. I did not want to end up with a mini-section of only a few sentences. I thought the reception seemed most appropriate in that section since the reviews discuss the band's repertoire a bit.

Infighting

• As much as I love the fact that the major body section of the article is simply titled "Infighting", was there really that little coverage of the tour itself?

• If anything, I could perhaps expand the infighting section with more detail, but I cannot find anything else to add about other aspects of the tour, silly as that is.

• "this guy loves antagonizing me to amuse himself i should definitely get a flat with him" come on Avory
• No notes through "Cardiff incident", whole thing is clear and encyclopedic but still gripping. I hadn't realized that Avory basically axed Davies. (I'm with Avory here though, Davies was cruising for a bruising).

• Thanks, I'm glad you think it reads well. I never had a clear imagine of what happened until I read Chris Dreja's account in Johnny Rogan's book. Dreja's account is so wonderfully vivid, it makes me imagine Avory as a headsman wearing a black robe but wielding a hi-hat stand in place of an axe.

• Excellent, grimly funny choice of pull quote.

• I thought so too. It was so hard to pick from all of the options available!

• Is there room somewhere in the article to say that the US tour had been announced in April, before the Cardiff Cymbal Incident? Right now it sort of accidentally gives the impression that Page hurriedly arranged the US tour after the Incident

• I added a bit in the background section about subsequent legs being planned for the US and Europe.

Misc

• I really love the cymbal photo so I hate to do this, but WP:GETTY dictates that we can't use stock photos under NFCC, unless the photo itself is subject to sourced inline commentary. I'm not sure the single sentence that describes it is sufficient - is there anything else, like maybe press/critical reactions to it?

• Unfortunately I am coming up empty, so I think it will have to go back to being an external link. Actually, in looking through contemporary newspaper and magazines articles, I cannot find any evidence that the cymbal picture was published anywhere contemporaneously. There are some gaps in the UK music magazine archives available online, so it is possible I am just missing an issue of a magazine in which the picture appeared, but I find it weird that I can find no mention of it. Another clue comes from Johnny Rogan's different biographies; his 2015 biography of Ray is seemingly a rewrite of his 1984 Kinks biography. The 2015 book sometimes incorporates novel research but at other times Rogan's passages are identical to the 1984 bio. In the 1984 one, Rogan never mentions the cymbal picture, but he mentions it in 2015. That suggests to me that he did not know about it until later, maybe when it first popped up on this stock photo site.

• Mostly spot checked Rogan 2015 as it's one of the major sources. Couldn't access Hinman 2004 by any means so taking that on good faith.
  • "instead attributing Dave's injuries to an accident[53]" - Rogan 2015 p. 668 seems to be incorrect here
    • The bottom of p. 668 includes Avory's claim that the cymbal "was knocked over and fell on him", but I've also added p. 213 to the citation, which includes another statement where Avory chalked it up to an accident.
  • god, even Curtis is mean to Avory, Rogan quotes him as saying "he's got the personality of a cucumber sandwich", poor thing.
    • Haha, yeah, there's quite a bit there on p. 213. Curtis also says this: "The only whipping boy was Mick Avory ... I think he had a lower IQ and he was naive. There was nowhere else for him to go in the world other than where he was ... You could insult him and treat him like dirt and it still didn't matter. He would just tolerate it." Even when the band were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and they were all in their 40s, Ray ended his acceptance speech with a dig at Mick.
• Hasted 2011 & Kitts 2008 all fine.
• No Earwig/CV issues, but a little bit of close paraphrasing from Rogan in the account of the fight in Taunton
  • "Both parties suffered cuts and bruises but Dave came off worst with two black eyes" compared to "Both fighters suffered cuts and bruises, but Dave was left worse off, receiving a pair of black eyes"
  • "trail of blood stretching across the staircase" compared to "trail of blood running across the staircase"
    • Reworded both.

That's all I got! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Premeditated Chaos: Thanks so much again! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

No worries, and thanks for taking a look at The Birds. I'm satisfied with your responses so this will be a pass :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:42, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.