Talk:The Iron Dream

"Fascist" not the correct adjective?

The article talks about "pro-fascism narrative". That would be soft-core literature then? Mussolini for example, was fascist, in the sense of Robert_Paxton but he would not have gone down the way of what one can only describe as full-on bat-out-of-hell "Hitlerism". It is a particular worldview (a recent article on this at Understanding Hitler’s Anti-Semitism). Maybe change this? There is a T101 in your kitchen (talk) 12:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Banned in Germany?

How sure are we that the book was banned in Germany? The cover copy on the version I have says BANNED IN GERMANY--BURNING INTO HISTORY--ADOLF HITLER'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL! right above a picture of good ol' Adolf with a red cape on a futuristic motorcycle. So is there another source for this? I doubt the veracity of the cover copy. grendel|khan 21:39, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

It definitely was banned in Germany as "glorifying national-socialist worldviews". I can remember Spinrad on TV being asked about this. He scoffed and (accurately, IMHO, but I liked it nevertheless) said that the at-the-times rather popular Perry Rhodan series was the one promoting the fascist worldview. The German Wikipedia has more on this: "Indiziert" from 1982-04-09 to 1985. There is a T101 in your kitchen (talk) 12:34, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Banned or not

Okay, I wrote to Spinrad himself on this, and here's what he told me:

"It was put on the "Index," and that is what they call it. Under German law, anyone can complain to an authority called the "Bundesprufsteller" (but don't trust my spelling or German), made up of ministers, priests, other such non-governmental notables, that a book, record, movie, whatever, is dangerous to the mental health of youth whether it was intended for youth or not.
The offending item is guilty until proven innocent once it is indexed, but in the meantime it is not entirely banned. During the 8 years THE IRON DREAM was on the Index while the publisher, Heyne Verlag, fought all the way up through the legal system to the German equivalent of the Supreme Court and eventually won, it could be sold, but not advertised or publically displayed.
That is the summary of 8 years of complicated legal action." DS 23:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Great work! Wonder why I didn't think of that. Some quick googling [1] shows that the Bundesprüfstelle (BPS) became active (or re-activated) in February 1982, and that one of the first books it banned was The Iron Dream. (According to Google's translator, Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften means "federal inspection station for youth-endangering writings", which sounds about right.) There's an article on de, which I've requested be translated. grendel|khan 17:17, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien (all media, not just writing) looks just about finished. Now, how to incorporate this... DS 14:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but the information on that page [2] is, ahem, less than exact. Neither is the BPJM "Willhelmian" nor was it (re)activated in 1982. I took the liberty of correcting that ;-) Killersepp 03:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed spoiler warning

I removed the spoiler warning. It should be quite obvious to anybody that an article discussing a book will "give away" plot details. --Morningmusic 13:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

That may be true, but it is nevertheless standard practice to have them. --Gwern (contribs) 15:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, The spoiler warning should stay. wtf did you remove it? any other article about a fictional work has a spoiler warning. 121.44.0.182 06:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dystopian?

It seems to me Spinrad is postulating a world where, given Hitler doesn't become Führer, things actually go a great deal worse, including a nuclear war in Europe. Can this be substantiated? Trekphiler 07:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how you are reading that into it. It's Hitler's war which forces his enemies into detonating the bomb after their total defeat and imminent annihilation. --Gwern (contribs) 16:13 9 June 2007 (GMT)

If he was postulating a world where Hitler does not become Führer and things actually get a great deal worse, what is the problem? And how do you expect this to be substantiated? You seem to assume it to be possible to establish evidence to prove/disprove this possibility. How do you expect anyone to be able to do this, when we are talking about a fictional story about and alternative future? If you have the ability of trans-dimensional travel, please let us know!

Your sarcasm is not warranted here. It's obvious that Trekphiler is wrong, since the entire story, up until the end, is an idealized and exaggerated version of what Hitler and the Nazis would have liked to do. In the story, the Hitler-analogue takes total control of Helm, utterly eliminates every last mutant and non-Aryan in his country through perfect and scientific methods, and then utterly obliterates his enemies.

In reality, Hitler's genocide was not nearly so successful or thorough as the Hitler-analogue's is portrayed as being, his military campaigns not nearly so successful (needless to say), etc. Spinrad's ending is ambiguous: from our liberal democratic POV, the ending demonstrates that even when things go perfectly for the Nazis, their ideology and actions are so insane and destructive that they literally cause the end of the world (by not respecting nuclear deterrence); but from the Helm/Nazi POV, the ending is quite satisfactory, as the old impure world is cleansed of its evil life and only selected pure new specimens go on to colonize newer and better worlds.

If we haven't figured out the dual role of the story, where we as typical fantasy/sci-fi readers mindlessly identify with the allegory and root for the Nazis, then the epilogue makes it brutally clear (to our chagrin) that we can understand the rise of the Nazis (which rise is piously declaimed as un-understandable and a deep mystery why the sensible and civilized Germans could ever have whole-heartedly embraced fascism) as merely a result of the same tendencies to which the inner story of The Iron Dream appealed to. In short, by reading the inner story and not realizing that the ethics and morals of fantasy literature when applied to the real world are the same thing as fascism, we learn that we all have a little Nazi inside.

I hope that makes this clearer for you. --Gwern (contribs) 13:06 5 August 2007 (GMT)

It is clear Trekphiler is talking about the world Homer Whipple portrays rather than the world the fictional Hitler wrote about. Whipple portrays a world where with no Nazi Germany to stop it the USSR has taken over all of Europe and is making inroads to South America. You also have the US and Empire of Japan moving toward military alliance which if that Japan is anything like the Japan of OTL 1930s should give you pause.--BruceGrubb (talk) 04:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Not entirely impossible. In 1920, Lenin tried to violently export the revolution by way of army (through the newformed Ukraine and Poland, with the targets Berlin and Rome). The advance was stopped by the Poles in front of Warshaw. This not-too-well-known episode of history is described in "Warsaw 1920: Lenin's Failed Conquest of Europe" by Adam Zamoyski. Notable facts include that Jews in the combat zone got a raw deal from both sides of the warrying factions, that the Entente powers were not exactly helping Poland because hailing the Red Revolution was the politically correct thing to do and that future Nazis were quite probably reading the newspapers, which could well be seen as a major impetus for their later push towards the east. 2001:7E8:C0B6:5B01:223:54FF:FE15:1831 (talk) 17:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Strange sentence

"Notably, in this version of the Second World War there is no analogue to America, to intevene and put itself in the balance against Germany/Helder - a rather strange omission considering that the book was supposedly written by a Hitler who emigrated to America and had lived there for thirty years at the time of writing."

This sentence doesn't make sense to me. In this alternate history he's a science fiction author. It needs to be elaborated or deleted, the way it's phrased it's only left me puzzled as to what the contributor meant to say.Krum Stanoev 17:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I deleted it; I can't figure out how it would make sense. grendel|khan 14:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess the person who wrote it was confusing the fictional non-fictional world of the book's fictional Hitler with the book's fictional Hitler's fictional fictional world. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 09:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Color me impressed! --Gwern (contribs) 21:54 21 December 2007 (GMT)

Thx

I'd like to thank those who have worked on this article for their impressive handling of a thematically and narratively difficult subject. The article is nicely written and well-structured, particularily in describing the frame tale first, the plot second and the representations last. Good show. --Kizor 13:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

original name?

Just curious. I once heard the novel referred to as "Spinrad's LORDS OF THE SWASTIKA", and I've never heard of the IRON DREAM title until just now. Was LORDS... the original title and did it get changed later to IRON DREAM to sound less offensive? (just as Mel Brooks' SPRINGTIME FOR HITLER got renamed THE PRODUCERS?) Or am I just confused? If I am right I think the name change would be worth mentioning. 71.56.67.215 (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Lord of the Swastika" is the internal name, the title of Adolf's story. "The Iron Dream" is Spinrad's (or his publisher's) repackaged version.--Michael C. Price ^talk 10:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly I remember a german edition of the early 80's entitled "Der Stählerne Traum" (The Dream of Steel) instead of what would be the correct translation "Der Eiserne Traum". It sounds more Prussian I reckon. "Hart wie Kruppstahl" etc. A quick check shows that it is still called that way and also brings up pictures of The Mustachioed One on a ludicrous bike :-) 2001:7E8:C0B6:5B01:223:54FF:FE15:1831 (talk) 17:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

American Nazi Party

I'm a bit curious about the reality of their reading list with Spinrad on it. While after reading it I'm not entirely sure a Nazi would disaprove, the fact that the author describes himself as an anarchist (and reading Iron Dream could lead readers to read his other books, therefore reading clearer "anti-nazi" material) is making me think that the ANP can't really be stupid enough to include the book on their list. Since I'm not really good at understanding the whole US Nazi movement (I'm french), I'm a bit lost when it comes to find out an official reading list :D Is there any link to it, any paper published with it or only a quote from Spinrad himself ? (posted by 82.67.87.211)

...that's a good question. So far, I think it's only a quote from Spinrad himself -- if you check Science Fiction in the Real World, or perhaps the issue of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine in which that essay was originally printed (unless it's one of the originals, I dunno!), you might get more details. DS (talk) 12:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Heldon

This french electronic/progressive band is named after the book, and sets it partially in music (Electronique Guérilla, 1974). Spinrad himself contributed to their albums. (I don't trust my english to put it in the article.) Sagrontanmutti (talk) 17:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Easteregg links

This article is full of WP:EASTEREGG links that are rather loaded and OR. If we are going to include interpretation of the plot, we can't hide it in veiled links, we have to provide a source that makes that interpretation. I will remove the OR/interpretive easteregg links if there are no comments.

Peace and Passion ☮  ("I'm listening....") 05:30, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

With this contribution, I removed them. --Cyfal (talk) 00:10, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Confusing Sentence

in the introductory section. the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph: "Spinrad was intent on demonstrating just how close Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces—and much science fiction and fantasy literature—can be to the racist ideology of Nazi Germany."

even taking the extraneous out, i get "Spinrad was intent on demonstrating just how close [the book] can be to the racist ideology of Nazi Germany."

is it supposed to be "just how close The Hero with a Thousand Faces came to being the racist..."??

if so, it's still not very well-written. "to being" should be....something else. "how close it came to being a reflection of the racist..." or "how close it came to nearly justifying the racist..." or even a larger change -- "Spinrad was intent on demonstrating how [the book]-and other sci-fi/fantasy literature-can be linked to the racist ideology of..."

i haven't read the book, so i really don't know exactly what was meant by that sentence. (my guess is it was meant to be more like my first rough suggestion.) and i hope my "rough suggestions" and shortcuts weren't too confusing in themselves.Colbey84 (talk) 08:13, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I parse it as "Spinrad was intent on demonstrating just how close (Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces—and much science fiction and fantasy literature—) can be to the racist ideology of Nazi Germany." It makes sense as that to me. I have read the Iron Dream, though not Campbell, and it does make sense William M. Connolley (talk) 09:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I also stumbled on this sentence. It sounded like Campbell itself is close to a racist ideology, although I interpret Spinread that he talks about the hero. I therefore rewrote the sentence like that. --Cyfal (talk) 00:27, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

"Hitler's other published works include..."

Are these noteworthy enough for a WP:PLOTSUMMARY? They look like cute easter-eggs that someone who read it decided deserved mention in this article, but that in the actual book are throw-away references. Full disclosure, I haven't read this book; I was only linked here by the WP:EASTEREGG guideline, and was surprised to find some quasi-EASTEREGG links on this page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:46, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

In my view, the problem whith these links is both that they are WP:EASTEREGG-links and that the identification done is WP:OR. I must admit sometimes the identification is quite obvious as in the case Triumph of the Will. However, sometimes the identification is not that clear, e.g. in the case "Storm" and Der Stürmer. The German word Stürmer means attacker, but is also related to the word "stürmig" i.e. stormy. On the other hand, what's with Sturmabteilung, Sturmtruppen, ...

However, I think mentioning these works is ok. "Hitler's biography" (as well as "Whipple's review") is an important part of The Iron Dream, although they are much shorter than "Lord of the Swastika", because it settles the frame for the latter.

Thus, I didn't deleted "Hitler"'s works, but deleted the links now.

Half disclosure ;-) I read the book myself, but in a German translation only.--Cyfal (talk) 18:05, 25 June 2016 (UTC)