Talk:The Horus Heresy/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about The Horus Heresy. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Audio and Ltd Etd. Books

It would be logical if the audiobooks so far, and also the limited edition short stories in the Games Day Anthology 2011, Lightning Tower/Dark King chapbook, and Promethean Sun and Aurelian books were also mentioned on this page rather than only in the main Horus Heresy page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.233 (talk) 01:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

(small) overview page

Before this, searching for the Horus Heresy novels redirected you back to the tabletop game - given the size of the series so far and the fact that each novel has its own page, a (small) overview page with links to the individual novels would be preferable. Slavedriver (talk) 13:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge

I think it may be best to merge this page and the individual novels' pages--with a short synopsis for each novel describing the sequence of events--onto the 'Horus Heresy' lore page. The only argument I could see for giving this and the novels each their separate pages is perhaps by comparison to the over-exhaustive pages about 'Star Wars'.Ektogamut (talk) 06:02, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I Disagree with a merger. -Loke

looks like they were merged anyway, citing this section. Ikip (talk) 19:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Reverted to earlier version

Several good faith edits by 3 users have been reverted. I will give the reasons for the reverts below:

User:AnomieBOT erroneously flagged nested references as orphaned references. There are hidden comments about the nesting next to the "Notes" section heading, and after each nested ref. There is also the {{refn}} template, right at the top of the "Notes" section. A human would have seen this. Secondly, the bot disregarded the article layout, which SEPARATES text from refs, by inserting a ref in the text. Third, text was added to the reference that is wrong: it mentions "following notes" without giving any further explanation, and it removed pertinent info (the non-English language editions). Fourth, the whole exercise came to nothing, as the parser disregarded the added reference in favor of the old {{refn}} reference. Bad!! Stay bot, stay!!
User:Cyberalien18 added information that I cannot find anywhere in official sources (ie Black Library/GW websites etc.) Although the information is correct, the reflink he provided (in Black Library's "Horus Heresy:Coming Soon" page) is misleading. The company has not yet posted any such info on the webpage. The info does exist in commercial websites such as Amazon. The article uses/should use official info only; please let's keep it that way. I encourage Cyberalien18 and anyone else to contribute along these lines and I appreciate their willingness.
User:Khazar2 used Wikipedia:AWB to effect certain minor changes. However with the exception of a typo correction, the other changes introduce semantic incogruities and/or diminish a human editor's understanding of the article structure:
1. in the "References" section, the change from {{cite ebook}} to {{cite book}}. The alias "cite ebook" is used, first because it accurately describes the actual source cited; secondly because both print AND e-book formats for the same work are cited.
2. also in "References", the substitution of parameter "type" with "format." This is not correct. The parameter "type" in the edited citations refers to work (ie website) type such as blog, discussion forum, e-magazine, etc. and is properly positioned after the website name. "Format" refers to the webpage and describes file format or similar, and is positioned after the webpage title but before the website name.

Thanks 70.19.122.39 (talk) 13:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Title and categories

the article title should follow the trade/brand name as in "Horus Heresy Novel Series" and should be italicized (i added {{Italic title}} to itlicize the current title). however the current title does not accurately reflect the content, especially since there are Horus Heresy-branded books that are not part of the Novel Series.

Category:British science fiction novels is about single books, Category:British science fiction is too generic but may be more appropriate. similarly, Category:Science fantasy novels vs. Category:Science fiction book series. if subcategories Category:British science fiction book series, Category:Science fantasy book series and Category:Warhammer 40,000 book series are ever created they would be more appropriate.

thanks. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

i want to propose insertion of the following template in the article page:

{{Cleanup-articletitle|alternate title=Horus Heresy (novels)|Horus Heresy Novel Series|section=Talk:Horus_Heresy_(novels)#Title_and_categories|Title and categories|naming convention=Wikipedia:PRECISION|date=September 2012}}

any comments are welcome. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

book covers

pls discuss whether adding reproductions of Series book covers per WP:NFC is a good idea.

65.88.88.127 (talk) 20:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

IP's documentation suggestion

Editor's project: partial documentation for The Horus Heresy/Archive 1

• Originally created April 2013 by then–main contributor 70.19.122.39/IP range 65.88.88.x, with recommended editing practices and related markup examples.
• Other Wikipedia users have questioned the usefulness, style, and tone of this documentation.
• Editors should not consider themselves bound to the suggested procedures.
• This documentation can be discussed at section Help documentation discussion of this page.
• Please do not remove this section.
• Please do not reposition; this documentation may be helpful to less-experienced users, so it is prominently displayed to ensure it will not escape the attention of editors.

Note: sectioning of this documentation, and inclusion of a subsidiary table of contents, necessitated limiting the table of contents for the entire talk page. (Main table of contents limited to level-2 subheadings). This is done for clarity and presentation.

Editors: please update the following documentation to reflect any changes in the documented article areas.

General

The article describes an ongoing book series. The series is treated as a single, integral work consisting of multiple volumes.
There is an attempt to utilise British English as the article idiom.
UK-style dates (DMY) are uniformly used in the article body and footnotes.
In places, the Wikipedia Manual of Style may not be strictly followed. This may be done in an attempt to promote or preserve integrity, readability, or comprehension.

Title of article and work

The work is referred in the article as the "Horus Heresy book series", "book series", or just "series", unless otherwise specified. This is in accord with disambiguation practice, trade practice, branding, and popular awareness. The "Horus Heresy" sub-brand includes many works, in literature and other fields. Several are also released in series unrelated to the "book series".
The publisher serializes (numbers) the work's volumes and refers to it as the "series" of "Horus Heresy novels", distinct from other Horus Heresy literature.
The article title may not be in accord with guidelines for precision (WP:Precision). In a related section of this talk page user input has been requested, with a view towards changing the title.
The italicization of both work and article titles may not be in accord with related guidelines (MOS:TITLE). Similar formatting is used in high-profile Wikipedia articles (eg Harry Potter book series) and other integral multivolume works like encyclopedias (eg Encyclopædia Britannica), and others.

Subject

In article order

Lead section

For clarity and readability, this section does not include footnote links (WP:LEADCITE). Statements liable to verification are expanded and footnoted in the article body.
This section includes a custom infobox, modelled after {{Infobox book series}}.

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Published

This section contains a table with information about published titles.
Please do not add limited or special edition titles.
Please only add titles that are, or have been, on pre-order or sale.
All information should be added per the series sequence/numbering. Please do not skip titles.
If all conditions and other guidelines above are met, and to add a title, you may optionally utilise the relevant example markup:

Copy the example "Published" table – row entry markup.
Paste the example code in the source-text of the article in the indicated place, on a separate line just before the end of the table. (See the related comment in the article source-text).
Edit the {{Book list}} template as indicated.
Please fill in only the indicated information.
Note that if the listing describes only non-print media, the information for the "Length" column must be entered in a specific way, see below.
An appropriate footnote for each title must be created, inserted in the section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Notes, and linked to under the "Note" column.
Edit the title's synopsis (if it exists), or create a new synopsis per the section Synopsis below.
If the title was previously listed in the "Announced" table (see the following section), delete its entry from that table.

For additional entries, repeat the steps above.

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Announced

This section provides information about future titles.
By default, the section may display a "Pending" sentence regarding future titles, see here for example markup.
Conversely, it may incorporate a table that displays at editors' discretion when:
- there are officially announced series titles
- these titles are not limited or special editions
- they are not on pre-order or sale (any such non-special/non-limited edition titles should be in the table under section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Published.
Please add titles that are detailed in publisher sources with:
- ISBN (or other verifiable work identification)
- author name(s)
- release date(s)
- media type(s)
All information should be added per the series sequence/numbering. Please do not skip titles.
If all conditions and other guidelines above are met, and to add the "Announced" table, you may optionally ustilise the relevant example markup:

Copy the example "Announced" table markup.
Paste the example in the article source-text in the indicated place under the section heading The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Announced. (See the related comment in the article source-text).
Edit the {{Book list}} template.
Please fill in only the indicated information.
Optionally fill in the "Note(s)" row, or remove the "Note(s)" row.
Remove the "pending" sentence (see further below for example markup).
Add pertinent information at the title(s)' synopsis entry, see below.

Additional announced titles

To insert additional entries to the "Announced" table you may optionally ustilise the relevant example markup:

Copy the example "Announced" table – additional titles markup.
Edit the {{Book list}} template.

The "Note(s)" row may include information about multiple announced titles.
The "Note(s)" row appears at the end of the table. Footnotes supporting the included information may be added inline.
When all "Announced" table titles go on pre-sale or sale, replace the "Announced" table markup with the "Pending" sentence markup, and fill in the included {{As of}} template.

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Synopsis

This section contains brief one-paragraph synopsis of published titles, or very brief information about announced titles.
An entry must be added for each title introduced in the "Announced" or "Published" tables.
The section is divided into subsections, each containing entries for 10 titles.
All information should be added per the series sequence/numbering. Please do not skip titles.

Synopsis for "Announced" title(s)

Please add information only for title(s) linked through the "Announced" table.
Please do not add actual story synopsis or any other spoilers.
If all conditions and other guidelines above are met, and to add an announced title synopsis, you may optionally ustilise the relevant example markup:

Copy the example Announced title synopsis markup.
Paste the example in the article source-text, in the indicated place at the end of the section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Synopsis. (See the related comment in the article source-text).
Please fill in only the indicated information.

Synopsis for "Published" title(s)

Please add information only for title(s) linked through the "Published" table.
Replace any previous entry for the title when adding the actual synopsis.
Please avoid excessive spoilers, and follow guidelines on size.
If all conditions and other guidelines above are met, and before the actual synopsis, you may want to insert some preliminary information about the title. Optionally, you may utilise the relevant example markup:

Copy the example Published title synopsis (preliminary) markup.
If there is a previous synopsis (when the title was in "Announced" status), replace it with the example. Else, paste it in the indicated place at the end of the section. (See the related comment in the article source-text).
Please fill in only the indicated information.

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Notes

This section contains the article's footnotes. The section is formatted as a 3-column list (columns not supported by all browsers).
Article text is kept separate from footnotes.
To promote readability and avoid clutter, footnote links in the article body may be placed at the end of the relevant sentences or paragraphs. This practice may be subject to text-source integrity guidelines (WP:INTEGRITY).

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § References

This section lists the sources used. The section is formatted as a 2-column list (columns not supported by all browsers).
The listings include any and all information that may be judged helpful to readers' understanding of the source, and to verifying the related information. This may be done even when inclusion of such information is stating the obvious.
Other things being equal, there is an attempt to use sources that are easily-available and/or easily-verifiable online.
As is common with genre fiction or tie-in works irrespective of popularity, sources that (a) reference the work (b) are normally acceptable to Wikipedia, are somewhat hard to find.
The provenance and type of sources is therefore noted in citations, by defining related or approximate parameters in citation templates. Similar information is sometimes provided in footnotes.
Relative to Wikipedia policies or guidelines, the article may include a number of prima facie borderline-unreliable or questionable sources, such as blogs, online discussion sites and other such internet sources.
Sources as in above may be accepted by editors if judged neutral and topical. Other editors and readers are encouraged to scrutinise such editorial decisions.
Sources may be reexamined and replaced if more suitable or reliable ones are found. Editors are also encouraged to help in this regard.

Archiving practice

Cited sources available online may be pre-emptively archived at WebCite when:
- there are no copyright issues
- archiving is technically possible
- there are no display or other technical issues
The archived version of certain online sources may be at the Internet Archive instead (by utilising the Wayback Machine). This may be because of issues that preclude archiving at WebCite, such as:
- software or formatting quirks at the source
- source link/item is dead or "stale"
- WebCite is experiencing service problems at the time of the archiving attempt
Cited online sources may not be archived when:
- there is another existing archive that is reliable and freely available
- the relevant information is part of another cited source, that has already been archived

Archiving problems

Certain sources may be archived even when there are technical problems that render archived copies partially illegible. This is done in order to provide some measure of proof regarding the original's prior existence.

—for an example, see the The Black Library Team 2013 (in The Horus Heresy/Archive 1). The source's host website may pop a scripted window that precludes proper archiving. (See the Internet Archive faqs " How do you archive dynamic pages?", and the followup "Why are some sites harder to archive than others?". Also at the WebCite faq, " Why are some pages not archived successfully?")

Blacklisted sources

At editors' discretion, certain online sources may be included even when the hosting website is included in one or more of Wikipedia's blacklists, such as the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist.
This may be done when the available evidence, and common sense, judge the source's content to be

Unrelated to the host's blacklisting.
Relevant and important as a reference to the article.

Editors are encouraged to scrutinise such inclusions.

Dating practice

Book sources (of any type and medium) display by year of publication/work.
News sources display by full date.
Other sources may display by any available date (full date preferred).
Irrespective of the displayed date, entries by the same author/editor are ordered:
- by full date of publication/work if known
- if the full date is not known, by month-and-year
- if the month is not known, they are listed by year
- if no date of publication or work is available, the undated works are listed first, in alphabetical order by title
For additional year-display disambiguation, see Citation anchors.

Listing practice

Some reference listings may diverge from the expected norm in order to enhance readability, and/or reduce clutter.
Listings that cite

the same author
the same source
but different media, formats or editions

—may be structured as a single reference, with entries separated by dual semicolons (::), and ordered by displayed date.

—when the displayed date is also the same, entries are ordered according to further date information, see section Dating practice above.

—when all known date information resolves to the same date, the entries are ordered alphabetically by media type. See also Citation anchors.

—for an example, see McNeill 2006 (in The Horus Heresy/Archive 1).

—similar information at related comment in The Horus Heresy/Archive 1.

Listings that cite

the same author
the same periodically appearing source (including items such as blogs, serials, and regular columns or sections)
the same publisher
but different dates

—may be structured as a compound reference, with a master entry that identifies common information, and component entries that contain distinct elements; these entries are sublisted by date. For an example, see Rhoads WordTipping (in The Horus Heresy/Archive 1).

Markup

Anchors

The article makes extensive use of editor-generated anchor linking.
Editor-created anchors may target significant article terms, headings, or text blocks. Additionally, they may target footnotes (footnote names/anchors), and references to cited works (citation anchors).
Footnote anchors (footnote names) may be generated by the parameter |name= of relevant templates (eg the template {{R}}).
Citation anchors may be generated by populating parameters in relevant templates, see here for details.
For the majority of other anchors:
- single-word targets (including hyphenated names, words or expressions), may be linked to by "visible" anchors created via the {{Vanchor}} template
- multiple-word targets may be linked to by anchors created via the {{Anchor}} template
- article sections with multiple-word headings may also be linked to by anchors created via the {{Anchor}} template
Some editor-created anchors are generated with other tools:
- by the parameter |id= of some templates (eg the template {{Em}})
- by the parameter |id= within HTML tags (eg in <div>...</div>)
As much as possible, it is attempted to use anchor names that are context-based and descriptive.
Anchor names are either:
- single words or abbreviations
- hyphenated words
- abbreviated, hyphenated expressions
Multiple-word targets use the significant fragment of the target as the anchor name:
- for names of persons or objects, the last word may be used as the anchor name
- for headings of sections or paragraphs, the first word of the heading may be used as the anchor name
- other multiple-word targets use self-explanatory anchor names.
All non-visible anchors, including footnote anchors (footnote names) are lower case
All visible anchors (including editor-created citation anchors) are exact case by default.
For a list of editor-created anchors see the "Anchors list". This list does not include footnote anchors or citation anchors.
For a list of editor-created abbreviations see the "Abbreviations list".

Cited works

Cited works may be formatted through appropriate templates. In the majority of cases, Citation Style 1 (CS1) templates are used.
In deference to readers, the templating of citations may involve workarounds, and/or may present editors with non-standard formatting. Such instances are commented in the article source-text.
The template {{Cite encyclopedia}} is used to cite the series as a whole, per the recommended practice.
The non-CS1 template {{Cite report}} is used in a single instance. However no visual or semantic differences are evident.
The citation parameters |author-mask= or/and |editor-mask=, each with a value of 2 em dashes ( —— ), may be used for works of the same author or/and editor.
The citation parameter |lastauthoramp= is used when the work is jointly authored/edited; it may not be used when the source contains multiple works by different authors.
Cited works may be linked to through use of shortened footnotes.
To provide correct context, in a few instances cited works may be linked to directly, through their embedded citation anchor (#CITEREF).
Certain citations of online sources may be formatted to bypass Wikipedia blacklist restrictions, see Blacklisted sources.
- In such cases, the source's pre-emptively archived page is substituted for its live page. In addition, the substituted url is marked as a (false) dead link via the relevant template parameter (|deadurl=yes).

—for an example, see Bosier 2010 (in The Horus Heresy/Archive 1).

Citation anchors

May be created by the citation template entry |ref=harv (author-date combination).
If the author-date combination is not available, any combination of author/work and date/title may be used.
In cases as described above, the template {{Harvid}} may be used. This template may also be used to insert anchors when further clarification is needed, see the point below.
When the same cited work is published in different media, formats, or editions during the same year:
- the year value is suffixed with a hyphen-and-integer, eg 2013-1
- the numbering starts from 1 and is ordered by publication date, or by work date if the former is unknown
- if multiple versions are published simultaneously, the numbering may be ordered by medium type, in alpha. See also Listing practice above

—for an example, see McNeill 2006 (in The Horus Heresy/Archive 1).

All citation anchors are "visible" anchors, and are therefore exact case by default.

Dates

Dates in article and footnote text are formatted as DMY (Day Month Year). Month names are fully expanded, per Wikipedia guidelines (WP:DATEFORMAT).
The same format is used in citation templates for the primary dates of cited sources: date of publication and/or date of work.
ISO 8601 format (yyyy-mm-dd) is used in templates only to denote secondary dates: the online access date ("retrieved [date]") and online archive date ("archived [date]") of a web linked source.
Because the article describes an ongoing work, information may become dated. The templates {{As of}} and/or {{Update after}} may be used to alert editors to date-sensitive information.
The article repeatedly refers to the date item Warhammer 40,000, a brand name, that is therefore not formatted according to date display guidelines. The exception is noted in first instance, via the template {{Sic}}, visible in the article source-text only.

Footnotes

The template {{R}} is used in the article body to link to all footnotes.
List-defined named footnotes are used to format all footnotes.
The footnotes are listed under section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Notes. They are in ASCIIbetical order by footnote name (footnote anchor) in the article source-text. However, see below for a singular exception.
The template {{Refn}} is used for a single footnote. This footnote utilises nesting. In the footnote list, the nest is out-of-order, listed first. (Technical details at bugzilla: bug 20707).
Harvard templating is used to link footnotes to cited works.
The template {{Harvs}} may display excess whitespace in front of the the parameter |loc= ("location at cited source") in certain configurations, notably, though not exclusively, in Internet Explorer 8 through 10.

Links

Interwiki

A few terms that may be ambiguous, novel, or foreign, link to Wiktionary entries.
One Wikisource link is utilised (in footnote).

Other English Wikipedia pages

Several links directly point to sections in other article pages (WP:TARGET). In many cases, these links use editor-created anchors at the other page.
A single link directs to a footnote in another page, using an editor-created anchor at that page.
For a list of other-page section links see the "Targeted redirects list".

Web

Web links are formatted in various external-link templates, through specific parameters.
Most web links are formatted by the {{URL}} template.
The {{Retrieved}} template is coupled with all web linking templates that do not natively provide for an online access date. For exceptions, see below.
The {{Retrieved}} template is not used in the following:

For "plainlink" web links that are formatted through the template {{Scp}} in order to hide the link icon
Anywhere in the section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § External links
In the article infobox

Certain display problems with the {{Retrieved}} template have neccessitated workarounds:
- use of the undocumented parameter |append= for terminal punctuation
- use of template {{Trim}} to avoid excess whitespace

Tables

A sortable table that uses complex formatting is under section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Published, see also above.
A discretionary table under section The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Announced uses similar formatting, see also above.
In both tables referred to above, rows are added via the template {{Book list}}.
Proper table sorting requires use of templates nested within the {{Book list}} template:
- the template {{Sortname}}, in the data for the "author" parameter (column "Author"): "|author={{Sortname|parameters}}"
- conditionally, only in the "Published" titles table, the template {{Ntsh}}, may be inserted in the data for the "aux1" parameter (column "Length"). This template may be used when the cell value is "0" print pages, as in entries for audiobooks or digital media. The data for parameter "aux1" may be formatted as follows: "|aux1={{Ntsh|-1}}{{Mdash}}" (the value "-1" is required for proper sorting, while the template {{Mdash}} generates an em dash "—", as a placeholder)
Multiple-line cells in all tables use the template {{Ubl}} (unbulleted list) for presentation.
The article footnote <ref name=nyt-bsl> also includes a table with simpler formatting.

Templates and other encoding

Templates are extensively used in the article in order to present a more standardised format to editors and readers, and in order to help in the article categorisation.
The template {{Sic}} may be used with visible output, in instances of peculiar or unexpected spelling, or for other errors at the source.
The templates {{Ntsh}} and {{Mdash}} may or may not be inserted depending on certain conditions, see section above.
The template {{!}} may be used to correctly encode the vertical bar, or "pipe", character ( | ) within templates.
The <nowiki /> tag may be used to correctly format certain wikilinks within citation templates.
In a single case, the {{urlencode}} magic word is used to format an external query within the template {{URL}}.
For a list of editor-inserted templates see the "Templates list".
For a list of editor-inserted elements and symbols see the "Code element/symbol list".

Text formatting

The template {{Spnd}} is used throughout, to correctly format spaced en dashes, and make them easily distinguishable from hyphens.
Non-breaking spaces (code:  ) are used:
- to avoid "hanging" numbers
- to preserve other context
- as a workaround in a few instances where whitespace is improperly trimmed when the page is viewed in mobile format.
Non-breaking hyphens (code: ‑) are also used, to avoid display or readability problems with:
- hyphenated names
- hyphenated words (eg "e‑book"="e‑book")
Non-breaking spaces or non-breaking hyphens are not used inside wikilinks (eg "e-book").
For a list of editor-inserted elements and symbols see the "Code element/symbol list".

Enhancements

Comments have been requested regarding adding book covers or other useful images to the article.

Example markup

Note: section-edit links to The Horus Heresy/Archive 1, inserted below, are layout-dependent. If you change the article layout, please edit these links accordingly.

"Announced" table

Copy and paste the following at the indicated place under the Announced section heading and:

Edit the data in green only.
Preserve italics and other formatting as indicated, but see below.

Compilation entries: the data for parameter |alt_title= (sub title) are not italicised

{|class="wikitable sortable" |style="width: 50%"
! scope="col" width="225px"|Title !! scope="col" width="225px"|Author !! scope="col" width="250px"|Release date{{r|bl-cs}} !! scope="col" class="unsortable"|Note{{r|ref-cmnt}}
|-
{{Book list
|title={{nowrap|Title}}|alt_title={{nowrap|Sub title [do not italicise for compilations]}}|author={{nowrap|{{sortname|First|Last|nolink=1}}}}|publish_date={{ubl|li_style=white-space:nowrap;text-align:center|{{dts|Year|Month|format=my}}}}|aux1={{r|b#}}|line_color=unpublished}}

<!-- ATTENTION EDITORS: PLEASE INSERT ADDITIONAL ANNOUNCED TITLES JUST ABOVE THIS COMMENT. -->

|- class="sortbottom"
|colspan="4"|[Note(s).{{r|Footnote(s)}}]|}</nowiki>

"Announced" table – additional titles

Copy and paste the following on a separate line at the indicated place above the code for the "Note(s)" row (|- class="sortbottom") of the "Announced" table under the Announced section heading and:

Edit the data in green only.
Preserve italics and other formatting as indicated, but see below.

Compilation entries: the data for parameter |alt_title= (sub title) are not italicised

{{Book list
|title={{nowrap|Title}}|alt_title={{nowrap|Sub title [do not italicise for compilations]}}|author={{nowrap|{{sortname|First|Last|nolink=1}}}}|publish_date={{ubl|li_style=white-space:nowrap;text-align:center|{{dts|Year|Month|format=my}}}}|aux1={{r|b#}}|line_color=unpublished}}

Announced title synopsis

Copy and paste the following at the indicated place, at end of the "Synopsis" section and:

Edit the data in green only.

Compilation entries: no sub title should be entered.

{{anchor|book#}}'''[#.] Title: Sub title [no sub title for compilations]'''

[Book #] (tentative). The next installment in the Horus Heresy saga, to be published Month1 Year1. "Premium" editions released Month2 Year2 [include sentence only if released].{{Update after|year1|month1|last-day|reason=published?}}

"Pending" sentence

Copy and paste the following at the indicated place under the "Announced" section heading and:

Edit the data in green only.

{{As of|yyyy|mo}} official announcement of further additions to the series was pending.{{r|bl-cs}}

"Published" table – additional titles

Copy and paste the following on a separate line at the indicated place above the "end table" (|}) code of the "Published" titles table under the Published section, and:

Edit the data in green only.
Preserve italics and other formatting as indicated, but see below.

Compilation entries: the data for parameter |alt_title= (sub title) are not italicised.
Data for parameter |aux1= (length, in print pages) may need special formatting, see here.

{{Book list
|book_number=#|title={{nowrap|Title}}|alt_title={{nowrap|Sub title [do not italicise for compilations]}}|author={{nowrap|{{sortname|First|Last|nolink=1}}}}|publish_date={{ubl|li_style=text-align:center|Month Year}}| aux1=## pp.|aux2={{r|b#}}|line_color=novel}}

Published title synopsis (preliminary)

Copy and paste the following at the indicated place at end of the "Synopsis" section and:

Edit the data in green only.
Preserve italics and other formatting as indicated.

Compilation entries: no sub title should be entered.

{{anchor|book#}}'''#. Title: Sub title [no sub title for compilations]'''

Title is the next installment in the Horus Heresy saga. [Optional additional text.] "Premium" and non-print [include only if non-print available] editions released Month2 Year2, general release editions expected Month1 Year1.{{Update after|year1|month1|last-day|reason=published?}}{{r|eds|exclusive}}

Appendix

Abbreviations list

List of editor-created abbreviations, concatenations, contractions and initialisms.
Items defined in the article body or footnotes are not included.

Abbr	Meaning	Usage
abs	Art Book Series	footnote name fragment
ae	Anniversary Edition	footnote name fragment
as	Audio boxSet	footnote name fragment
aur	Aurelian	footnote name fragment
auth	Author(s)	footnote name fragment
b-	Book	footnote name fragment
b[#]	Book [Number]	footnote name footnote name fragment
bl	Black Library	footnote name fragment
bnb	British National Bibliography	anchor name
botf	Battle Of The Fang	anchor name footnote name
bs	BookSeller	footnote name fragment
bsl	BestSeLler	footnote name fragment
char	Character	footnote name fragment
cmnt	Comment	anchor name fragment footnote name fragment
con	Continuity	footnote name fragment
crit	Critic(s)	footnote name fragment
cs	Coming Soon	footnote name fragment
dm	Dropsite Massacre	anchor name
eb	E-Bundle	footnote name fragment
eds	Editions	footnote name
eom	Emperor Of Mankind	anchor name
gld	Gold	footnote name fragment
hh	Horus Heresy	footnote name fragment
i-truth	Imperial Truth	anchor name footnote name
loc	Locus	footnote name fragment
lst	List	footnote name fragment
mwg	Miniatures WarGame	footnote name fragment
nyt	New York Times	footnote name fragment
oa	Officio Assassinorum	anchor name
oe	Omnibus Edition	footnote name fragment
p-truth	Primordial Truth	anchor name
pe	Premium Edition	footnote name fragment
pre	Prequel	footnote name fragment
pream	Preamble	footnote name fragment
pub	Publication	footnote name fragment
pw	Publisher's Weekly	footnote name fragment
r-fleet	Retribution Fleet	anchor name
rev	Review	footnote name fragment
rls	Release	footnote name fragment
rs	Rulebook Series	anchor name fragment footnote name fragment
seq	Sequel	footnote name fragment
sub	Subtitle	footnote name fragment
toc	Table Of Contents	footnote name fragment

Anchors list

List of editor-created anchors.
Does not include footnote anchors (footnote names) or citation anchors.

Anchor	Target
#abbadon	list item
#abyss	term
#ahriman	list item
#Alpharius-Omegon	list item
#Angron	list item
#aurelian	list item
#bile	list item
#bnb	term
#book[#]	paragraph heading
#book1-ae	list item
#botf	list item
#cabal	list item
#caliban	term
#chaos	term
#characters	section heading
#cestus	list item
#corax	list item
#creators	section heading
#curze	list item
#dm	term
#dorn	list item
#eom	list item
#Erebus	list item
#external	section heading
#Fulgrim	list item
#garro	list item
#grammaticus	list item
#guilliman	list item
#hawser	list item
#i-truth	term
#isstvan	term
#jonson	list item
#Ka'Bandha	list item
#Khârn	list item
#keeler	list item
#Kelbor-Hal	list item
#kell	list item
#Librarian	term
#loken	list item
#lupercal	list item
#Magnus	list item
#manus	list item
#media	section heading
#mmp	term
#oa	term
#p-truth	term
#perpetual	term
#Perturabo	list item
#phaeron	list item
#premium	section heading
#primarch	list item
#prospero	term
#r-fleet	term
#ref-cmnt	text block
#related	section heading
#Remembrancer	term
#Reviews	paragraph heading
#rs-book1	list item
#Ruinstorm	term
#russ	list item
#Sanguinius	list item
#Sales	paragraph heading
#story	section heading
#tal	list item
#tawren	list item
#trilogy	paragraph
#ulthran	list item
#ultramar	term
#warp	term
#Zadkiel	list item
#zulane	list item
#zurias	list item

Code element/symbol list

List of editor-inserted code elements and symbols.

Code/Symbol	Meaning	Usage
` `	whitespace	templates
`‑`	non-breaking hyphen	anywhere
`[`	left bracket ([)	templates
`]`	right bracket (])	templates
` `	non-breaking space	anywhere
`<div>...</div>`	text-block element	article body infobox
`<nowiki />`	ignore preceding character	templates
`{{urlencode}}`	format external query	templates
§	section symbol	anywhere
¶	paragraph symbol	anywhere

Targeted redirects list

List of direct links to sections in other pages.
Multiple sections per page are listed alphabetically.

Page	Section
Anthology	Omnibus
Book design	Back matter Front matter
Brand	Derived brands
Chaos (Warhammer)	Chaos Gods
Daemon (Warhammer)	Daemons in Warhammer 40,000
Edition (book)	Co-edition First edition
Executive officer	Military
Horus Heresy	Art book series Audio dramas Events Expansion and continuity Garro series Introduction Literature Novellas Notes
Horus Heresy	[footnote:] "timeline"
List of Horus Heresy characters	Nathaniel Garro Garviel Loken
List of Warhammer 40,000 novels	Space Marine Battles Series
Narrative mode	Third-person view Third-person, omniscient
Paperback	Mass market paperback Trade paperback
Psyker	Astropaths
Space Marines (Warhammer 40,000)	Origins

Templates list

List of editor-inserted templates.

Template	Used for
`{{!}}`	character encoding (vertical bar "\|")
`{{" '}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{"'}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{'}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{'"}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{'-}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{'s}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{*}}`	presentation (table)
`{{-'}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{Abbr}}`	abbreviation format
`{{Abbrlink}}`	abbreviation link
`{{Abbrw}}`	abbreviation prefix
`{{About}}`	disambiguation/redirection
`{{Anchor}}`	anchor link
`{{As of}}`	date info
`{{Bgg title}}`	web link (specific site)
`{{Book list}}`	table row entry
`{{Circa}}`	date info
`{{Cite additional archived pages}}`	citation/reference add-on
`{{Cite book}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite ebook}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite encyclopedia}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite journal}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite magazine}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite mailing list}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite news}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite report}}`	citation format
`{{Cite sign}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Cite web}}`	citation format (CS1)
`{{Convert}}`	unit conversion (page size)
`{{Crlf}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{Crlf2}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{Dfn}}`	definition (term)
`{{Dts}}`	date format
`{{Em}}`	semantic emphasis
`{{Harvid}}`	citation anchor
`{{Harvnb}}`	short reference/citation link
`{{Harvs}}`	short reference/citation link
`{{Harvtxt}}`	short reference/citation link
`{{Horus Heresy}}`	navbox (topical)
`{{ISBNT}}`	presentation (hide term)
`{{Infobox}}`	infobox (custom)
`{{Interp}}`	editor insertion
`{{Italic title}}`	title format
`{{Lang}}`	foreign script
`{{Link note}}`	web link info
`{{Listed Invalid ISBN}}`	error in source
`{{Main}}`	disambiguation/redirection
`{{Mdash}}`	presentation (table) [conditional]
`{{Nowrap}}`	presentation (display)
`{{Ntsh}}`	sort table (no. of pages) [conditional]
`{{Official website}}`	web link
`{{R}}`	footnote
`{{Redirect}}`	disambiguation/redirection
`{{Refbegin}}`	source list
`{{Refend}}`	source list
`{{Reflist}}`	footnote list
`{{Refn}}`	footnote nest
`{{Retrieved}}`	web link info
`{{Scp}}`	presentation (hide icon)
`{{See section}}`	section link (other page)
`{{Sic}}`	error in source
`{{Sortname}}`	sort table (author names)
`{{Spnd}}`	presentation (readability)
`{{Start date}}`	date info
`{{Strong}}`	semantic emphasis
`{{Trim}}`	presentation (display)
`{{Tvtropes}}`	web link (specific site)
`{{URL}}`	web link
`{{Ubl}}`	presentation (display)
`{{Update after}}`	date info
`{{Vanchor}}`	anchor link (visible)
`{{WebCite}}`	web link (specific site)
`{{Worldcat}}`	web link (specific site)
`{{Ws2}}`	interwiki link

70.19.122.39 (talk) 14:21, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment - To clarify why this is here, this is nothing more than a single IP editor's suggestion for how they would like to see the article, it is not based on any consensus on any level and should not be considered authoritative in regards to improving the article in any way. If you want to edit the article to improve it, just do it. - Sudo Ghost 02:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I've moved it back to where it belongs on the talk page per WP:TPG, WP:TOPPOST, and Wikipedia:Talk page layout. If you'd like it to be at the top of the page, at minimum that would need a consensus to put it there, hitting "undo" isn't going to accomplish anything because as it is it's ignoring every relevant guideline on Wikipedia. Until there's a consensus, it follows Wikipedia convention. - Sudo Ghost 16:16, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Until there is a consensus to the contrary, the talk page sections have no reason to ignore WP:TPG, especially just to enable ownership of the article. - Sudo Ghost 23:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

you changed it first. you were reverted. (by the main contributor, that's me). per BRD you are the one who needs to get "consensus" for your original changes, not me. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:10, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. Wikipedia policy and Wikipedia guidelines holds more weight then "who changed it first." Until there is a consensus to the contrary, WP:TPG says we do talk pages a certain way, and that's not going to be ignored merely to promote ownership of the article. - Sudo Ghost 00:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

well i guess we disagree that this is in violation of policy. as for guidelines, i don't think there's violation there either. but i am not going to blindly follow any guideline. there will be exceptions when common sense or goodwill service to other editors (such as this doc) require it in order to make a better article. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:23, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:OWN and WP:TPG are pretty common sense things, and this is hardly an exception to that by any stretch. You are welcome to disagree, but that doesn't change anything in regards to the content of this talk page. If you believe that your ownership of the article should be promoted at the top of this page you are more then welcome to try to get a consensus for that, but short of a consensus along those lines the talk page follows the convention of talk pages on Wikipedia, that is common sense. - Sudo Ghost 02:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

i repositioned this section for the reasons explained in the doc. if you believe that this doc project does not belong, i ask again that you submit it to independent review by uninvolved editors. i have stated before that i agree to be bound by their conclusion. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 14:21, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

You have been blocked twice now for this kind of behavior. It does not belong at the top of the talk page. It's been explained why, so I'm not repeating myself. When you find yourself unblocked, you are welcome to attempt to gain a consensus. - Sudo Ghost 17:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Help documentation discussion

doc for article editors will be forthcoming on this page. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 13:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

work in progress, above 70.19.122.39 (talk) 17:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

final draft 70.19.122.39 (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

strike out. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 16:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I've collapsed this, since it took up way too much space on the talk page, and isn't really necessary. Though it might be marginally helpful in that it contains information found elsewhere on Wikipedia, it's largely redundant here; each page does not need this kind of documentation. - Sudo Ghost 01:01, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

this talk page is largely inactive, so notions of "space" don't have much meaning. i've no idea how you came up with the idea that doc helpful to editors is unnecessary. it centralises info about an article with complex markup, points to special cases and their handling (including errors not commented on elsewhere), and explains divergence from WP:MOS. all with a view of avoiding exactly the type of time-wasting explanations i'm engaging in right now. and more importantly, with a view of helping other editors understand why and how the article is structured as it is, thereby helping not to waste their time. btw, imo, EVERY wikipedia page needs something similar. it would certainly make for better articles all around. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 13:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

consequently, i edited {{cot}} and moved it to the top. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 14:16, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

And I have moved it back down here, per WP:TOPPOST. Please see WP:OWN; this is not your article so a lot of the prescriptive content in that "documentation" is your opinion, but does not dictate how the article should be written. The editing notes on the article are also completely inappropriate, because (1) they refer to the documentation as though it is something that needs to be referred to before editing when that is not the case and (2) editors are more than capable of clicking the "Talk" link on an article, they do not need 5kb of wasted space filling up the editing window essentially saying "See talk". Look at other articles on Wikipedia, even featured articles. They do not have editing notes yelling at editors beneath every section header, nor do they have excessive and redundant documentation on the article's talk page. Please also see WP:BRD; you boldly created those editing notes, now please discuss it and get a consensus before reinserting it, instead of simply hitting "undo". - Sudo Ghost 18:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

the accusation of WP:OWN is frivolous and false and is completely rejected. if you think that according to the criteria of the WP:OWN page, i have assumed ownership your only option is to report me, because i just don't, and won't, agree: i have not come even close to the listed/implied criteria of improper assumption of ownership.

if you don't take formal measures and you persist in reverting the work, i have no option but report you, because i explained my position and will do again below. if despite this you insist on removing content from the edit window and the talk page, i will consider your behavior disruptive, and your accusations of ownership as uncivil. in that case we should move to another forum, because we simply disagree irrevocably.

i have been the major and near-sole contributor to this page for the past year or so, from the present ip address and from the range 65.88.88.x. i shaped the article to what it has become today, concerned only for making it accessible to readers, while following Wikipedia policies as closely as possible. i never assumed ownership, but i definitely assumed, and continue to assume stewardship of the article (WP:OAS).

in the course of bettering the article, and for reasons partly explained in the Help documentation, i used advanced markup, which although presents quality to readers, it makes things complicated for editors. as a service to other editors, i created the help doc to explain why and how the article is structured, with recommendations not "dictating orders", on how to follow the established structure.

ALL wikipedia guidelines recommend deferring to established practices by the main contributor before making any changes. that's me. i didn't have to spend ANY TIME documenting anything. as i said i did it as a service and inducement to other editors. i care for readers, first, second, and third. that is why we are all here.

i am well within guidelines (Help:Hidden text) in inserting hidden comments at the edit window, not the "article" as you erroneously point out, and i also agreed with your request for an edit notice, if need be. i am also well within guidelines for the talk page in inserting helpful commentary for other editors (because i don't consider myself an owner), and displaying such help prominently.

if you have a problem with the article and/or the doc discuss it. but do not remove any content for frivolous reasons, it is obstructionist and disruptive. the edit window and this talk page will be restored to the status prior to your unwarranted removals. there is nothing more to be said about such behavior here. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

You don't have to agree, but that doesn't mean the inappropriate editing notes will stay on the article, nor does it mean this "documentation" will stay at the top of the talk page, because by Wikipedia's talk page guidelines newer content goes at the bottom of talk pages, because that is where editors will look. It also doesn't matter how much or how little you have edited this or any article; this "documentation" is still nothing more than your suggestion, and the way you're inserting the editing notes and the documentation makes it read as if it's something that needs to be followed, and it isn't. I'm not trying to remove the documentation, that's why it's still on the page, but it has to be made clear that it's your opinion, not some hard and fast structure that has to be followed; that disrupts how articles are improved. As for the hidden text in the article, it is inappropriate and unnecessarily redundant, and unless you get a consensus for including it has no place on the article. You are welcome to "report me", but you may want to consider how that will turn out, given your edit warring and frivolous claims of "incivility". When you say "i have no option but report you", you're mistaken. You have to option to stop edit warring and discuss the content, getting a consensus for your edit instead of simply hitting "undo". That is another option you have available to you, and it comes highly recommended on Wikipedia. - Sudo Ghost 02:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

reasoning for reverting edits of Sudo (18 April 2013)

the majority of the "18 April 2013" edits to the article by Sudo were reverted by contributor 70.19.122.39/IP range 65.88.88.x as misapplied, inappropriate, or misinformed. reasoning follows.

Please expand the documentation; several sections are linked below

the article includes a mix of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, as evidenced by the source listing in the section Horus Heresy (novels) § References. the sources' provenance is made clear in their respective citations. the included primary souirces serve only to (a) verify that statements attributed to them were actually made by them (b) verify the details of cited editions (c) verify the article editors' description of the Series as an important work for the publisher. their inclusion is well within the considerations detailed at WP:PRIMARY, (see under paragraph "Policy"). further, it is clarified in the section Horus Heresy (novels) § Reception and in the doc (#References) that some prima facie questionable sources are unavoidable. ALL such sources are online (or are archived online); any reader can access them and, i believe, may reasonably justify their inclusion based on neutrality and topicality.

–the template {{primary sources}} inserted by Sudo is not appropriate

the product's name is not "The Horus Heresy", and the article title does not refer to it. as explained in the text and the doc (Title of article and work), "The Horus Heresy" is a brand, that includes standalone and serial components. just one of these components is the Series of "Horus Heresy" novels. there are other Horus Heresy series, in literature and other media. for disambiguation + clarity (and since the publisher refers to the work as "the Horus Heresy series of novels" or the "Horus Heresy novel series"), the title of the work used throughout the article is the Horus Heresy Novel Series.

–the related edits by Sudo are inappropriate.

the section Horus Heresy (novels) § Reception is entirely sourced and referenced. the various template notices are misapplied and misinformed.
the lead paragraph:

Markup

Renders as

{{As of|2013|03}}, ''The Horus Heresy'' as a whole was generally enjoying both popular and critical approval,{{Citation needed|date=April 2013}} with corresponding commercial success;{{Citation needed|date=April 2013}} favourable sales performance by the publisher has been credited to the ''The Horus Heresy''{{'}}s popularity.{{r|sales-perform}} The considerable Warhammer 40,000 fan base{{r|popularity}} embraced the work,{{Citation needed|date=April 2013}} and helped propel the product's sales: titles have consistently appeared in UK and US [[science fiction]] charts, have occupied high positions in [[Nielsen BookScan]] genre lists, and since early 2010 have often charted in [[The New York Times Bestseller List]] for mass-market paperbacks.{{r|sales-direct}}

As of March 2013^[update], The Horus Heresy as a whole was generally enjoying both popular and critical approval,^{[citation needed]} with corresponding commercial success;^{[citation needed]} favourable sales performance by the publisher has been credited to the The Horus Heresy's popularity.^[1] The considerable Warhammer 40,000 fan base^[2] embraced the work,^{[citation needed]} and helped propel the product's sales: titles have consistently appeared in UK and US science fiction charts, have occupied high positions in Nielsen BookScan genre lists, and since early 2010 have often charted in The New York Times Bestseller List for mass-market paperbacks.^[3]

–all footnotes in the Reviews subdivision directly reference the overall "critical approval". they are not included in the lead paragraph of the section to avoid clutter.

–there is 1 footnote linked through the text above that directly references the Series commercial/popular success: <ref name=sales-perform>.

–there are additional footnotes linked to in following section subdivisions that reference the fans embracing the Series <ref name=fan-price>, <ref name=fandom>, and <ref name=fan-talk> etc. again to avoid clutter, they are not included in the lead paragraph of the section.

–the template {{citation needed}} inserted by Sudo is inappropriate.

the next paragraph:

Markup

Renders as

''The Horus Heresy'' books have been regularly reviewed; reviewers have often returned to the work to offer appraisals of additional releases.{{Citation needed|date=April 2013}} Reviews have typically appeared in genre-related media and [[Science fiction fandom|enthusiast]] or specialist websites; non-print and special editions of ''The Horus Heresy'' titles have also been reviewed.{{r|reviews}} Critical reception of individual titles has been mixed, yet the general tone of reviews has been mostly positive. Although ''The Horus Heresy'' overall has been viewed favourably, there have been complaints about its length, the multitude of characters and narrative threads, and the timeline jumps or repetitions caused by the nonlinear storytelling.{{r|crit-balance}}

The Horus Heresy books have been regularly reviewed; reviewers have often returned to the work to offer appraisals of additional releases.^{[citation needed]} Reviews have typically appeared in genre-related media and enthusiast or specialist websites; non-print and special editions of The Horus Heresy titles have also been reviewed.^[4] Critical reception of individual titles has been mixed, yet the general tone of reviews has been mostly positive. Although The Horus Heresy overall has been viewed favourably, there have been complaints about its length, the multitude of characters and narrative threads, and the timeline jumps or repetitions caused by the nonlinear storytelling.^[5]

–the footnotes linked through the text above directly reference the fact that reviewers have returned to the Series. further, a quick perusal of the section Horus Heresy (novels) § References will show citations of the same reviewer appraising multiple titles.

–the template {{citation needed}} inserted by Sudo is inappropriate.

the next subdivision, Fandom contains two links to all-inclusive footnote that reference ALL the statements that Sudo found in need of citation or clarification: <ref name=fandom> and <ref name=fan-talk>

–the related edits by Sudo are inappropriate.

the subdivision Sales

Markup

Renders as

Early in its publishing history, ''The Horus Heresy'' became a sales success in its category.{{clarify|date=April 2013}} [[#book1|''Horus Rising'']] by Dan Abnett, the opening title, set the pace shortly after its release, topping [[Locus (magazine)|''Locus'']] magazine's "Locus Bestsellers: Gaming-Related" list of August 2006; {{As of|2012|10|alt=as of [[#book20|Book 20]] (June 2012),}} practically{{clarify|date=April 2013}} every title in ''The Horus Heresy'' had achieved the same or similar performance on this chart.{{r|loc-bsl}} ''Horus Rising''{{'}}s January 2011 [[#CITEREFAbnett2011a|CD audiobook release]] also appeared in ranked sales lists: the (abridged) edition was number 15 in a related chart published by ''[[The Bookseller]]'', covering 2011 UK sales up to September.{{r|bs-b1-cd}}

Early in its publishing history, The Horus Heresy became a sales success in its category.^{[clarification needed]} Horus Rising by Dan Abnett, the opening title, set the pace shortly after its release, topping Locus magazine's "Locus Bestsellers: Gaming-Related" list of August 2006; as of Book 20 (June 2012),^[update] practically^{[clarification needed]} every title in The Horus Heresy had achieved the same or similar performance on this chart.^[6] Horus Rising's January 2011 CD audiobook release also appeared in ranked sales lists: the (abridged) edition was number 15 in a related chart published by The Bookseller, covering 2011 UK sales up to September.^[7]

–here Sudo wants "clarification" for statements that are immediately referenced in footnote <ref name=loc-bsl>, and also in other footnotes linked to in this subdivision, and in other places in the article..

–the related edits by Sudo are inappropriate.

these edits are diminishing the article and readers' understanding relative to the previous version; they are unconstructive and unhelpful. they were therefore reverted.

note: the template {{overly detailed}} inserted by the same user, is not, in my opinion, justified. i will reserve further action pending proof of concept, with specifics by Sudo of what should be considered "excessive amount of intricate detail".

70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC) added linefeeds for clarity. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

(1) The article relies too heavily on primary sources, that it contains a few secondary sources does not change the fact that most of the article relies on the primary sources. (2) The Horus Heresy is not, by any reliable sources, referred to as Series. The article should not refer to the subject in a way completely at odds with every single reliable source, since that is WP:OR. To italicize that word in that manner with capitalization suggests that it is a proper noun for the article's subject, and it is not. (3) It is overly detailed per WP:UNDUE; the amount of detail in the article is inconsistent with the amount of attention non-primary reliable sources have given the subject, so per Wikipedia policy the article either needs additional non-primary sources, or the content needs to be cut back significantly. (4) All content that is challenged must be directly supported by reliable sources. If they are elsewhere in the article, then use that reference for that information, do not remove requests for citations with vague comments that they are elsewhere in the article; per Wikipedia policy that is insufficient. - Sudo Ghost 01:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

be specific: (1) examples in the article where use of primary sources is against policy. just the presence of such sources is not a violation. how does the article rely on them? (2) i agree that the Horus Heresy is not a series, that is why it has its own page as a brand with many product components. this article is specifically about the Series of Horus Heresy Novels. this is how they are referred to in the media/publisher annotations. further not all Horus Heresy novels/novellas/short stories are part of the Series. neither is the Series consisting only of novels but also of anthologies. additionally there are other Horus Heresy series (artbooks, rulebooks, scriptbooks, audio dramas). there has to be a way to distinguish that this is about the Novel Series. the title of the article (which predates my involvement) has problems re: WP:PRECISION. that is why i have asked for input to change it. if you (a) had read the article (b) read this talk page, you would have seen the same. (3) be specific: what constitute "excessive amounts of intricate detail"? do not just say it contradicts policy, exactly point out where it does so. there is a number of non-primary sources referencing the work, which has consisitently appeared in ranked sales lists. wikipedia contains a large number of articles about genre fiction that compare very poorly to this one, which is a significant product in its category. (4) all statements made in the article are directly supported in footnotes linking to citations, most of which are easily verifiable online. be specific about which statement you think is unsupported, or should be considered unreliable. reading the article before making accusations would be nice too. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There are entire sections, such as "Authors" and "Contributors", that rely solely on primary sources. This is undue, and is likely to be removed entirely, since it is largely redundant with the "Titles" section which already lists each author, making a separate list unnecessary.
The Horus Heresy is a series, not Series. That is a descriptor appropriate for the lede, not a proper noun to be used in the article. Reliable sources do not refer to the subject as Series at any point, in any way. It is not a proper noun nor a title for the subject in any way, so to refer to the article as Series as opposed to The Horus Heresy, which all of the reliable sources do, is against Wikipedia policy and also the Manual of Style and if you would like to restore that content you must provide reliable sources supporting such a change. "Input" is not necessary to change it, because this is not your article, and reliable sources dictate the change. There is a difference between the Horus Heresy and The Horus Heresy, italics signify a work of literature, which distinguishes it from the event, which is also why using italics on Series is inaccurate, because it is not the title of a work of literature.
This is related to point #1 above. Protestations like "read the article" are ad hominem comments and accomplish nothing except to give your comments the appearance of being less than they otherwise would have been, since ad hominems are usually reserved by those with no actual refutation to support their statement.
If all statements were directly supposed with inline sources, then I wouldn't have to put citation needed templates around certain sentences. "Be specific"? I placed a tag at each point, it is impossible to be more specific, and if you remove the citation needed template without providing an inline source directly supporting it, then per Wikipedia policy the unsourced statements will be removed until they are properly sourced. On a slightly related note, I don't know what's going on with in-line citations being notes to refer to references as opposed to actual references, but this article is a train-wreck in that regard. - Sudo Ghost 14:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

these are descriptive and in no way constitute a viewpoint that has undue weight. books are written and contributed by some people, and these are properly cited. they are part of the Series as much as the author/contributor of any work that has an article in wikipedia. this is a non-issue and the policy you mention is not applicable.
you are wrong. the publisher specifically names the work the Horus Heresy Series of Novels (emphasis added). the publisher also refers to other series within the Horus Heresy product line differently: the Horus Heresy Art Book Series, the Horus Heresy audio dramas, the Horus Heresy rulebooks etc. for purposes of trade-naming the publisher is a proper, reliable source. calling the product Horus Heresy could mean anything. if you don't like how the particular product within the Horus Heresy line is referred to, offer less ambiguous, and more exact suggestions. i have asked for such in older threads here, you could have started there.
and
i specifically referred to the footnotes with sources that address all the concerns you pointed out, in the opening post of this thread. additional footnotes are interspersed throughout, especially in the section Horus Heresy (novels) § Overview. i don't have to link every phrase to a footnote; wikipedia guidelines on style and referencing allow sparser spacing of footnotes to avoid clutter. on the other hand, there are no controversial viewpoints described here. the Series is succesful and this is sourced in several places. criticism varies but is la largely positive, and all viewpoints are covered in the text, footnotes and sources.

70.19.122.39 (talk) 15:13, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Everything in any article is descriptive, that doesn't absolve an article from avoiding excessively pointless and redundant information. Please show where the publisher refers to the article's subject as Series in any capacity. Also, the article does have to support each contested statement with a direct inline citation; that is Wikipedia policy and has no exceptions. Alluding to footnotes doesn't do anything for you. So far the rationales you have given contradict Wikipedia's guidelines and policies entirely, so the version you reverted to is not going to remain in the article, although you're welcome to get a consensus to say otherwise. - Sudo Ghost 15:21, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

get any book in the Series. open it. listing of the "Horus Heresy Series of Novels" with serialization (numbering) is in the front matter of every volume. this is a multivolume work with many forms and contributors in several media. there are no redundancies; authors/contributors/titles are listed with short descriptions, as in any creative work. i don't allude to footnotes; that is where ALL article statements are supported, and verified: to avoid clutter and make the article visually pleasant by avoiding overload, many footnotes that source multiple statements are not repeated in every instance. that is also allowed under citation/referencing policies. you keep repeating claims that imo any good-faith person would have conceded long time ago. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

That's not what I asked. Where is it referred to as Series? To say that because in the flap of a book it is referred to as "The Horus Heresy Series of Novels" that it should be called Series is original research and completely against the Manual of Style. Reliable sources do not refer to the subject as Series, nor The Horus Heresy Series of Novels, so the article cannot not refer to the subject as Series, Wikipedia articles cannot create their own name for the subject. Let me say this again: the article must, without exception, provide a direct inline reliable source for each and every contested bit of information. There are no exceptions, for any reason. If someone asks "where does it say this?" it must have a reliable source right next to it showing exactly where it is said. "Clutter" is not an excuse; Wikipedia policy requires this, and if clutter was a concern why are references linked to notes referring to other references? That is unnecessary clutter, inline citations are required, that is the difference. See also WP:AAGF concerning "any good-faith person". - Sudo Ghost 15:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

the same argument, again. the publisher refers to the books as a series of novels. since this is a trade name, the publisher is a reliable source. they named it so. as i said, i have been open to suggestions about this before you parachuted in. but your naming suggsetion is ambiguous and does not help readers. all the statements you questioned in section Horus Heresy (novels) § Reception are supported inline, mostly with WP:CITEBUNDLE at the end of respective paragraphs, subdivisions or subsections. in a single instance (about the Series being a "canonical exposition") footnotes in other sections ("Background" and "Positioning") are more exacting, however the statement can be verified/inferred if one follows/peruses the cited sources in the footnotes provided at the same section. to me it seems you keep arguing minutiae not worth wasting time over, when many, many other wikipedia articles would reap more benefit from such attention. i suggest you submit this article for independent review; it seems i cannot convince you of anything. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

If it is "ambiguous" it is because the title is ambiguous (an assertion which I disagree with), but it is not Wikipedia's job to "correct" that; after multiple requests you have not presented a single thing that referred to the article as Series, so it is WP:OR and has no place in the article. There is a difference between WP:CITEBUNDLE and what is happening here; there are several different statements in paragraphs with a single, unrelated source at the end of a paragraph supporting something different, that doesn't cut it. There are inline citations, yes, but the article requires direct inline citations. That isn't optional, and if it isn't fixed the content will be removed per Wikipedia policy if the citation needed tags are removed without being replaced with a citation. The "other articles" fallacy doesn't mean anything; if "many other wikipedia articles would reap more benefit from such attention", then you're welcome to work on those other articles, but if that's your way of saying "Let me edit my article the way I want", I'm afraid I'm going to have to disappoint you; this is not your article and has serious issues that need to be corrected, and will be corrected. Hitting "undo" whenever any other editor makes a change will not stop the article from being improved, it will only result in you being blocked from editing, and you cannot contribute to a discussion if you are blocked, resulting in the article being improved without your input. Therefore my suggestion would be to work with others, not against them, especially when the changes being made reflect reliable sources and when citation needed templates are added in lieu of removing the content altogether, which is permitted under Wikipedia policy. - Sudo Ghost 16:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

everything is properly supported per wikipedia policy, and all your questions have been answered, many times over. i have nothing else to add. again, i suggest an independent article review, before this descends into you vandalizing an otherwise informative article. i will be perfectly within my rights not to allow such mishandling. first you complain about the hidden text; then about the documentation; then you somehow discover other issues (a moving target). you are just fishing for trouble and this is hardly conducive to looking at your motives as good faith. submit the article for review, and let's get some other perspectives here. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Everything is not properly supported, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue here, you're getting "references are in the article somewhere" mixed up with "directly supported with an inline source", because I'm not seeing it and making a reader search all over the article to find a source that supports a statement is more detrimental to any perceived clutter, especially when (1) that "clutter" is required, and (2) the references referred to by notes referred to in the article makes a confusing mess of the references, which makes finding sources for things not directly supported even more difficult then it would otherwise be on any other article. Also see the definition of vandalism, because nothing here is anywhere close to vandalism, so you are mistaken if you believe that you are "well within your rights" to keep your preferred version of the article and to revert anyone else who edits the article. I am not "fishing for trouble", I'm trying to improve the article just as you are, and there are several issues with the article, so it's hardly "a moving target" to address them one at a time. I'm not saying The Horus Heresy has to be what is used to describe the subject, but it is what reliable sources use, and Series is most certainly not, so until a discussion can determine what is appropriate (and used by reliable sources), it should at the very least reflect sources and WP:MOS, that's all. Ambiguity is not a pressing issue, since there is a difference between the Horus Heresy and The Horus Heresy; if it is not in italics, it is not referring to the series but the event, that's how italics are used to distinguish publications and resolves any ambiguity in having a publication named after its subject matter, this isn't unique to this article, and replacing it with WP:OR certainly isn't an answer. - Sudo Ghost 16:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

well, it certainly looks like you're nit-picking to me. but i will again attempt to answer this.

about the title. this is a policy: Wikipedia:Article titles. this has to be followed. now look down to WP:NATURAL in the same page ("Disambiguation"). we agree that this is not the primary page for "Horus Heresy", so it has (per policy) to be disambigued. is the title "Horus Heresy (novels)" sufficient and precise? there is a distinct series of books (not just novels, but also anthologies of novellas & short stories) numbering 25 volumes as of today, that are treated by every source as one, single work. this work is what the article title refers to. there is other literature, including novellas, anthologies etc. that are not part of this series. right away the article title is less precise than it could, and should, be. the presence of this other literature is hatnoted, and is summarily described in the topic's main page, as the Novel Series is big enough to warrant its own article. so a case can be made (perhaps by another nit-picker), that the article title is in violation of policy. even more important (in my opinion) is the fact that the inaccurate label may confuse a reader who is completely ignorant of the subject. that is my personal audience baseline for editing articles. i will follow policy, but guidelines may or may not be followed if in my opinion they diminish readers' understanding. additionally, it is highly likely that italicizing part of the title (though correct and proper) will mean absolutely nothing to the common reader, who cannot be expected to be familiar with wikipedia nomenclature/style provisions.
- according to WP:NATURAL i propose to rename the article to "Horus Heresy (book series)". this is not unusual, compare Harry Potter (film series) vs. Harry Potter. it makes clear that (a) the product is a serial (b) it does not exclude other literature forms (novellas/short stories etc.)
- because the article may make references to both the Horus Heresy and the book series, any such references have to be disambigued also. it is simpler to just refer to the book series in every instance as the "book series" or just the "Series". the italicization and capitalization follow the convention of the article title, and have semantic significance regarding the article title only, as a placeholder for the longer and unwieldy title. something similar is noted in the very first footnote linked to in the text. this does not constitute WP:OR.
about the various templates you inserted in the section "Reception":

Markup

Renders as

Reviewers{{who|date=April 2013}} have commented on constraints that the underlying universe, and storyline continuity, may impose on authors. They have also ventured into perceived differences (in style or substance) among ''The Horus Heresy'' authors, and have compared the handling of different ''Horus Heresy'' stories by the same author.{{r|crit-auth}} In addition, the evolving ''Horus Heresy'' is said to have gradually acquired a backstory and terminology of its own; this has lead reviewers to question the accessibility of individual stories to new or casual readers.{{r|crit-cmnt}}

Reviewers^[who?] have commented on constraints that the underlying universe, and storyline continuity, may impose on authors. They have also ventured into perceived differences (in style or substance) among The Horus Heresy authors, and have compared the handling of different Horus Heresy stories by the same author.^[8] In addition, the evolving Horus Heresy is said to have gradually acquired a backstory and terminology of its own; this has lead reviewers to question the accessibility of individual stories to new or casual readers.^[9]

the template {{who}} is inappropriate. "reviewers [who] commented on constraints" is sourced in the footnote "crit-cmnt" which is at the end of the same short paragraph:

<ref name=crit-cmnt>Postulated creative constraints: {{harvtxt|Rhoads|2010|loc=¶ 1}}; {{harvtxt|Dean|2011|loc=¶ 4}}; fans vs. casual readers: {{harvtxt|Fortune|2012|loc=¶ 4}}; {{harvtxt|Rudden|2012|loc=final paragraph}}.</ref>

the context is clear, irrespective of the footnote link's position, a couple dozen words away from the statement.

Markup

Renders as

With few exceptions,{{who|date=April 2013}} fans of the gaming and [[fiction]] aspects of the Warhammer 40,000 universe embraced the detailed, canonical exposition of its major myth that ''The Horus Heresy'' represents. ... {{r|fandom}}

With few exceptions,^[who?] fans of the gaming and fiction aspects of the Warhammer 40,000 universe embraced the detailed, canonical exposition of its major myth that The Horus Heresy represents. ... ^[10]

the template {{who}} is inappropriate. all statements in the subdivision Fandom are sourced at footnotes within the subdivision. the particular statement is sourced in generic-fan-issues footnote "fandom" (how abtuse). the footnote explains the subdivision's statements in the order that they appear on the article text, so right away it deals with the disputed statement:

<ref name=fandom>An apparent minority among fans has considered the ''Series'' publication as unnecessary tampering with the universe's legends, or has disagreed with the shifting of the focus to an earlier period, see reader comments at {{harvnb|Brent (Brent Aleman)|2013}}; elsewhere, see {{harvtxt|Connor MacLeod et al.|2012}} for a fan-authored, detailed analysis of ''Series'' titles, and {{harvtxt|Perrin et al.|2011}} for a discussion of its art; by using published details and minutiae, fans have created unofficial works that fill gaps in ''Series'' coverage, such as a partial "Horus Heresy timeline" {{harv|isilvra|2011}}. The related discussion includes comments on continuity, as does {{harvnb|Antigonos et al.|2011}}; Heresy-related fan fiction has been judged in unofficial competitions by ''Series'' authors or editors, and winners have been collected in short story compilations released as [[public domain]] works through sponsoring [[fansite]]s {{harv|Goulding|2009}}; an ongoing ({{As of|2013|03|lc=y}}) discussion of future ''Series'' releases was at {{harvtxt|Masshuu et al.|2010}}.</ref>

again, the context is clear. all one has to do is carefully read the article, footnotes, and sources (i am biased towards immediate verification, so many sources are online).

Markup

Renders as

Early in its publishing history, ''The Horus Heresy'' became a sales success in its category.{{clarify|date=April 2013}} [[#book1|''Horus Rising'']] by Dan Abnett, the opening title, set the pace shortly after its release, topping [[Locus (magazine)|''Locus'']] magazine's "Locus Bestsellers: Gaming-Related" list of August 2006; {{As of|2012|10|alt=as of [[#book20|Book 20]] (June 2012),}} practically{{clarify|date=April 2013}} every title in ''The Horus Heresy'' had achieved the same or similar performance on this chart.{{r|loc-bsl}} ''Horus Rising''{{'}}s January 2011 [[#CITEREFAbnett2011a|CD audiobook release]] also appeared in ranked sales lists: the (abridged) edition was number 15 in a related chart published by ''[[The Bookseller]]'', covering 2011 UK sales up to September.{{r|bs-b1-cd}}

Early in its publishing history, The Horus Heresy became a sales success in its category.^{[clarification needed]} Horus Rising by Dan Abnett, the opening title, set the pace shortly after its release, topping Locus magazine's "Locus Bestsellers: Gaming-Related" list of August 2006; as of Book 20 (June 2012),^[update] practically^{[clarification needed]} every title in The Horus Heresy had achieved the same or similar performance on this chart.^[6] Horus Rising's January 2011 CD audiobook release also appeared in ranked sales lists: the (abridged) edition was number 15 in a related chart published by The Bookseller, covering 2011 UK sales up to September.^[7]

what's to clarify? it is a fact that the Series started with the opening title publishing in April 2006. this is sourced in the footnote "loc-bsl" immediately following the sentence. it topped the cited source's sales list of August 2006 (web link provided at the citation in "References"), but if that is not "early" enough, there's more:

<ref name=loc-bsl>{{harvnb|Locus Online|"Locus Bestsellers"}}. {{interp|For listings of other ''Series'' titles, search ''Locus Online''{{'}}s {{URL|1=http://www.locusmag.com/Monitor/category/bestsellers/|2="Weekly Bestsellers"}} archive pages. Charts lag data collection by 3 months}}.</ref>

as i note in the footnote (and the source in the citation itself), the sales data lead the particular chart by 3 months. so actually that book topped its category in May 2006, a month after publishing. it is true that i don't provide exact listing for the other books "achieving similar performance". one reason is again, brevity and avoidance of clutter; the source after all has extensive online archives where such statements can be verified, as i point out in the footnote. secondly sources are provided for sales successes of the books in several other sources, including the New York Times Bestseller list, which has a much wider coverage than the specialized genre lists of Locus (magazine). if someone cannot infer that a title that appears in the former, likely appears on the latter, then i'm at a loss for further explanation.

unfortunately i have to revert your edits again, but i am open to renaming the title and work as i mentioned above. probably inadvertently, you had also removed info about the 25th title which is technically on sale (preorder). so this will be restored as well.

70.19.122.39 (talk) 16:20, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Let me make this perfectly clear: Series is in no way appropriate as a descriptor for the subject; there are no reliable sources that describe it as such in any capacity. Reliable sources describe the subject as The Horus Heresy, not Series. The word "Series" cannot be capitalized or italicized as if it the title of a work of literature, because it is not. Any edit that changes this will be reverted, because it is original research and is not permitted on Wikipedia. WP:ARTICLETITLE describes the title of the article, not the text of the article, so none of that applies to what you're saying. You're also incorrect with the assertion that the event and the series must be disambiguated in some way other than the Manual of Style: the series is in italics, the event is not. This is how works are distinguished on Wikipedia. It is not acceptable to invent a new name for the subject for any reason, not even claims of ambiguity with the event, which could be handled by specifying instances of the event. Original research is not permitted on Wikipedia, that is policy and must be adhered to. - Sudo Ghost 01:48, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

ok, relax, this is not that serious. the reason i used such convoluted naming is because the article title is wrong. i will edit the article to reflect your suggestion. but show some good faith by changing the article title to "Horus Heresy (book series)", since i obviously cannot do it. it is a much better title. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:13, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

it seems that i was looking at a cached version and did not realise that you had already edited the article. in any case the effect is the same. now please chnge the title. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, you don't need to include the content of the diff on the talk page. I'm quite aware of the contents of the edit, and honestly I'm not even reading any of that, because I'm already aware of what it says. - Sudo Ghost 09:27, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

i diddn't include diffs. i included parts of the article to show that sources do exist and in the proper context. what's the diff between putting a footnote link right after a word rather than at the end of the sentence/paragraph? obviously, the more you deal the minutiae, the more convoluted the explanation has to become. anyway, there's no controversy here. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:13, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

References

^ Cite error: The named reference sales-perform was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference popularity was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference sales-direct was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference reviews was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference crit-balance was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference loc-bsl was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference bs-b1-cd was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference crit-auth was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference crit-cmnt was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference fandom was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

insertion of the template `{{Overly detailed}}` by Sudo

needs clarification. Sudo will be asked to provide specifics about what prompted this insertion, because i find it completely unwarranted. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

See the discussion above. - Sudo Ghost 01:38, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

well, no. pls specify why this template is needed here. if you are right in inserting the template, i have no problem following. but i don't think you are. so convince me. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

See above, there is no point in discussing this twice. - Sudo Ghost 14:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Official website?

Is this really the "official website"? It looks like a blog, and hasn't been updated since 2011 and things such as the "Connect with The Horus Heresy" buttons (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) don't even work; it's just an image. It is my understanding that this is the official website, if any one website could be said to be "the official" one. - Sudo Ghost 17:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

i agree that it is iffy, but it is the only official site by the publisher that deals exclusively with the heresy, including synopsis, characters, etc. (though most of the info is online reprint of content in the Art Book Series). also most of the covered titles are Series titles, so... the other site you mention is the publisher's official website, which is cited several times in the article. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 16:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

There's no indication that it's the official website, only a website, and not one that's being used any more. Since it is a couple of years out of date, it's not useful to anyone, and is misleading in that it makes it seem that nothing has happened since 2011. - Sudo Ghost 02:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

whether it is currently active or not, it is the website that includes information about the Horus Heresy, describing the whole event , characters, etc. (so it is useful), and 90% of the titles mentioned are series books. it is also published by the company that holds the copyrights. that makes it the official website, unless one is a massive stickler for detail. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:29, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It is a single website of several that provides such information, and being "useful" does not make something the official website, especially when that claim to being useful became out-of-date years ago. Being published by the company that holds the copyrights also does not make it the official website. If anything this seems to be "the official" website, since it also meets all of those criteria but is actually kept up to date and it the site that is actually promoted by the company. I don't think there is a single "official website", and if there is one, it certainly isn't the defunct one that has nothing showing that it's the official website in any way. - Sudo Ghost 18:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerning the excessive hidden text in the article

The hidden text doesn't belong on the article, so I've removed it again. Per Help:Hidden text, it is inappropriate to use hidden text to assume ownership of an article, and that's exactly what the text is being used for. The "documentation" the text refers to is a single editor's opinion, not based in any consensus and is nothing more than how they would like the article to be written, so there is no cause to include hidden text in caps lock in each and every section of the article directing editors to a single editor's opinion. That is the very first example Help:Hidden text uses as an inappropriate use of hidden text in an article. Even if the hidden text were appropriate, the amount used in the article is unnecessarily excessive, when an Wikipedia:Editnotice would serve the desired function. However, an editnotice doesn't belong on the top of an article to promote a single editor's opinion, that's not the purpose of an editnotice and it's not the purpose of hidden text. - Sudo Ghost 16:32, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

this has been discussed above. so your new commentary doesn't make for interesting reading. i disagree with what you say. again, get another opinion, because you are not convincing me. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 23:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

You being convinced is not required to remove your hidden text promoting your ownership of the article. Short of consensus to include it it does not belong; you disagreeing does not matter when Help:Hidden text does not support the inclusion of the hidden text. - Sudo Ghost 00:28, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

you know something, you would be right, if you had another argument. but you are wrong. there's no article ownership. and since nothing forbids 1. helping other editors understand the article 2. providing them with the appropriate documentation for such understanding 3. alerting them to the presence of such documentation, in order to 4. make constructive, not destructive edits - then i guess it belongs here. i suggest you do similar in other articles. thousands of articles need something like this doc. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Telling others that they need to look at your documentation before editing, and reverting any edits by other editors is pretty clear WP:OWN. "Helping others understand the article" is saying "Helping others understand how I want the article", and that's exactly the reason the hidden text does not belong and will not remain in the article short of a consensus to the contrary. - Sudo Ghost 00:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

wrong again. i don't tell anyone they need to look at the doc. you and anyone else can just ignore it. since i am the main contributor and since the article has complex markup, the doc clarifies what i did and why. everything is according to policy, and more importantly presents a good, complete, impartial article to readers. you have no case. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

It seems that at least two other editors disagree with that assessment, and you've now gotten yourself blocked twice for it. Turns out saying "you have no case" doesn't magically make it true. You are more than welcome to try to work with other editors to improve articles, but this "This is my article, you have no case therefore we do it my way" behavior doesn't work on Wikipedia. - Sudo Ghost 17:30, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

reasoning for reverting edits of 2013/05/16

these edits were entered while i was involved in a dispute and blocked for 48 hrs.

1. the revision [1] by User:とある白い猫 (removal of hidden comment re: section link)

per WP:TARGET (and common sense) the removed comment is justified. see also Template:Anchor comment.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

2. the revision [2] by User:ChrisGualtieri who made several unhelpful/unconstructive edits (AWB "fixes")

AWB is buggy and previously, has made several errors in attempting to "fix" the particular article.

per Template:Italic title: "Normally the template is placed at the top of the article." The output of the template affects the title, therefore it is properly positioned before the hatnote.

AWB replaced specifically inserted non-breaking hyphens with regular hyphens, potentially affecting readability and context.

AWB replaced specifically inserted user-friendly parameter aliases in citation templates potentially affecting editors' ease of use.

these are not "fixes". the edits of this revision are unconstructive and will be reverted.

3. the revisions [3] [4] and [5] by User:ChrisGualtieri (blanket removal of hidden text re: editor's documentation project)

there is a reason for this text, and discussion about it at this talk page. a terse summary without explanation is unjustified.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

4. the revisions [6] and [7] by User:ChrisGualtieri (hatnote edit)

here User:ChrisGualtieri says that he "cleans up" but actually introduces confusion and obfuscation. the "Horus Heresy" includes many other works of literature unrelated to this series. redirecting to the appropriate section of the target is the proper and most exacting disambiguation, per guidelines.

the edits of these revisions are unconstructive and will be reverted.

5. the revision by [8] by User:ChrisGualtieri (removal of section)

a whole section was deleted. it is actually pertinent because: (a) the article is about an ongoing book series currently being published. (b) because it is linked from elsewhere in the article and has attendant footnotes that verify the linked statements, which pertain to the deleted section. (c) because it may include a conditional table.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

6. the revision [9] by User:ChrisGualtieri (removal of citation)

the particular facebook entry is reliable in the context in which it is used. it verifies statements attributed to the publisher, and statements of others that are explicitly referred to in the text. removing it affects the verifiability of the article. per the policy on reliable/primary sources, there is justification for its inclusion.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

7. the revision [10] by User:ChrisGualtieri (removal of a footnote)

this was sloppy. he removed an unrelated footnote.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

8. the revision [11] by User:ChrisGualtieri (removal of section)

the entire section was removed. the section had a summary listing of major characters, who are referenced several times in the text. it also included term definitions and other significant information. among other things, the {{Main}} page for this summary section is unfortunately below standard and was offered only as a signifier. further, the section itself was anchored and linked. removal of such relevant and pertinent info is unjustified.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

9. the revision [12] by User:ChrisGualtieri (misapplication of template)

the template {{main}} does not belong under the synopsis.

the edit of this revision is unconstructive and will be reverted.

the affected editors will be notified.

70.19.122.39 (talk) 13:50, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The invisible text goes against its specific use and serves no valid purpose. It should be removed, we do not need it in every single section. Much of the redundant and useless invisible text bloats out the article. Many references are improperly used. Like how a forum post is being used as a source. Re-adding it is a problem. Facebook is no different. The referencing system you install purposely conceals the source from the reader. These are not reliable sources for an article. "Perrin [pseudonym] et al. (16 November 2011). "Best Horus Heresy cover-art ever, In my opinion". The Bolter and Chainsword (online discussion site)." [13] Its a forum post. This isn't either "Masshuu [pseudonym] et al. (10 May 2010). "Upcoming Horus Heresy Novels". Warhammer 40k Forums, Articles & Blogs (online discussion site). UK: 40K Forums. "Forum: Warhammer 40k Bacground and Stories" [14] Even the timeline is unreliable and cited to a forum post. isilvra [pseudonym] (17 February 2011) [timestamped "09:31 PM"]. "Horus Heresy timeline: Post #3". In (discussion originator) AekoldHelbrass [pseudonym]. [15] These are all examples of unreliable sources and cannot be used in Wikipedia. Let's focus on this before we get to other issues. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Article clean up

I like the anchoring and much of the little mark up tweaks which make the page more robust, but I am concerned about the referencing nightmare here. I've never seen such a difficult to follow referencing system which uses the in article ref to point to a foot note which points to another footnote which points to another footnote which points to a mass list of sources. Its not proper in the least, like having pseudonyms be used with 'et.al' to denote forum posts for issues they are not reliable sources on. Like timelines and such. We need to fix the referencing before we can really understand the state of the article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm working on cleaning up the references, but it's a mess and is taking longer than I thought it would. - Sudo Ghost 03:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The Emperor was not enraged with Magnus

I disagree with the use of the word enraged to explain the Emperors reaction to Magnus using his powers to alert of Horus's betrayal. He was not enraged in any way, he was in fact saddened beyond belief and the decision to send in the Wolves was a very difficult one for the Emperor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.120.202.205 (talk) 23:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Horus Heresy short stories / comics

Is it OK to write about Horus Heresy in other media? Can I mention short stories / comics here also? Mrky007 (talk) 08:26, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Fixing the references

I know I'm almost three years late to getting around to this, but I'm going to be working on fixing this referencing mess (as per the talk page discussions above). It's a big project digging through all this, so it might take a while. - Aoidh (talk) 01:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

A few notes just so it doesn't seem like I'm trying to make changes under a flurry of edits without them being noticed:

- I removed the "use MDY" template because, frankly, there's no reason for it. WP:STRONGNAT's pretty clear here, and as this is a very, very British series from a British publisher, there's no need to not only ignore that but to actively enforce a format that runs contrary to that.
- On the table of books, I removed the "Notes" column, as the "references" being used there were simply the books themselves. If a reference is needed, I don't think that is where it is needed.
- I removed a "false gods redirects here" template because false gods doesn't actually redirect here.
- I've remove unnecessary italics as applicable.

I've done I'm going to do tonight, but I'll work on this as time allows. - Aoidh (talk) 03:23, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Book Recommendations

I noticed this article used to have recommendations on what novels or audio dramas to read/listen to in between certain books. Whatever happened to that?207.229.144.144 (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The separate article Horus Heresy (fictional event) includes this massive reading tree. ...GELongstreet (talk) 18:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Addition of the Final Books

This was my first time editing Wikipedia. I add Books 50 - 54 to the titles table and synopsis list and fixed 2 grammatical errors. The information for books 50-54 is exact to the best of my knowledge and research. Did I edit correctly? I love WH40k and all that it entails and was wondering if there was anything else I could help contribute to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpha22101Omega (talk • contribs) 22:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Less than half the book entries have plot summaries. StSeanSpicer (talk) 20:23, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Page Count

Should page count be included in the table? The page count obviously varies depending on the format. StSeanSpicer (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions about The Horus Heresy. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

[sales-perform-1] Cite error: The named reference sales-perform was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[popularity-2] Cite error: The named reference popularity was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[sales-direct-3] Cite error: The named reference sales-direct was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[reviews-4] Cite error: The named reference reviews was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[crit-balance-5] Cite error: The named reference crit-balance was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[loc-bsl-6] Cite error: The named reference loc-bsl was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[bs-b1-cd-7] Cite error: The named reference bs-b1-cd was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[crit-auth-8] Cite error: The named reference crit-auth was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[crit-cmnt-9] Cite error: The named reference crit-cmnt was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[fandom-10] Cite error: The named reference fandom was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]

[8]

[9]

[10]

Audio and Ltd Etd. Books

(small) overview page

Merge

Reverted to earlier version

Title and categories

book covers

IP's documentation suggestion

Editor's project: partial documentation for The Horus Heresy/Archive 1

Title of article and work

Subject

Lead section

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Published

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Announced

Additional announced titles

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Synopsis

Synopsis for "Announced" title(s)

Synopsis for "Published" title(s)

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § Notes

The Horus Heresy/Archive 1 § References

Archiving practice

Archiving problems

Blacklisted sources

Dating practice

Listing practice

Markup

Anchors

Cited works

Citation anchors

Dates

Footnotes

Links

Interwiki

Other English Wikipedia pages

Web

Tables

Templates and other encoding

Text formatting

Enhancements

Example markup

"Announced" table

"Announced" table – additional titles

Announced title synopsis

"Pending" sentence

"Published" table – additional titles

Published title synopsis (preliminary)

Appendix

Abbreviations list

Anchors list

Code element/symbol list

Targeted redirects list

Templates list

Help documentation discussion

reasoning for reverting edits of Sudo (18 April 2013)

insertion of the template {{Overly detailed}} by Sudo

Official website?

Concerning the excessive hidden text in the article

reasoning for reverting edits of 2013/05/16

Article clean up

The Emperor was not enraged with Magnus

Horus Heresy short stories / comics

Fixing the references

Book Recommendations

Addition of the Final Books

Page Count

insertion of the template `{{Overly detailed}}` by Sudo