Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2016/August

Comments by Xx236

Bad timing

There are two books:

• The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland under the General Government (also in Polish)
• http://www.amazon.com/Black-Earth-Holocaust-History-Warning/dp/1101903457 Black Earth,

which should be quoted here before any evaluation (I know the GG one only).Xx236 (talk) 09:03, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Ghettoes - according to The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe many small ghettoes weren't closed, so we are not alllowed to extrapolate Warsaw or Lizmannstadt experience.Xx236 (talk) 11:58, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

escaped east into the territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union

Completely false, rather - escaped or were deported into Central or Eastern SU and survived there. Both conditions were necessary.

Some Jews survived in Germany, either in camps or using false documents.Xx236 (talk) 09:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

•  Done. Citation added. However, the Jews in Germany are beyond the scope of this article, Poeticbent talk 17:15, 21 September 2015 (UTC) I mean that some Polish Jews survived in Germany sometimes under false identity and later returned to Poland.Xx236 (talk) 05:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Not neutral lead

If we inform about heroic people, we should also mention the criminals.

The righteous title doesn't inform about the real risk, death or CC in the East, sometimes small fine in the West. Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

• The phrase "small fine" needs to be really well sourced to be mentioned. Poeticbent talk 15:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

You are right, I have simplified. But if we are comparing the numbers of the reighteous, we should also compare the risk of their actions. Xx236 (talk) 05:55, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Every arm of the sophisticated German bureaucracy was involved in the killing process

1. The GG bureaucracy was partially autonomous. - not commented.
2. The Ostbahn (de:Ostbahn (Generalgouvernement)) wasn't part of the Reichsbahn.Xx236 (talk) 09:36, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

• A branch of DRB called Generaldirektion der Ostbahn (Kolej Wschodnia in Polish) was established in November 1939 with headquarters called GEDOB in Kraków; technically, part of Reichsbahn until the end of WWII (however autonomous and given financial independence in December 1939; since DRB trains were arriving from everywhere). Source: Jerzy Wasilewski (2014): Wcielenie kolei polskich do niemieckich kolei państwowych Deutsche Reichsbahn. Polskie Koleje Państwowe PKP webpage. Confirmed in the book by Gigliotti, page 55.Poeticbent talk 14:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Gigliottin says control. He describes occupied lands, eg. France and SNCF#World War II still was SNCF.Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Wasilewski says technically which means probably tjat German regulations were used, so not included rather than included.

https://books.google.pl/books?id=gY_o6_7TP98C&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=ostbahn+reichsbahn&source=bl&ots=caIUYVrd6U&sig=SiXJOPyQpIi0BvHkqcLeP9gvaBU&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAmoVChMI2bqlxYOKyAIVxkAaCh2OhAyi#v=onepage&q=ostbahn%20reichsbahn&f=false

The relationship between RB and OB was difficult... Xx236 (talk) 06:39, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think we can drop this part of our discussion as not all that relevant, because Ostbahn is not even mentioned in our article by name. Besides, Alfred C. Mierzejewski (above), also says on page 81 (quote): "1.200 Reichsbahn people were sent to the Ostbahn to ensure that the military's transport needs were fulfilled." The same German professionals worked for both, the only difference was that the Ostbahn branch used Polish forced labourers, Reichsbahn did not. Poeticbent talk 15:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

The Ostbahn is only an example, the main subject is the phrase beginning with Every arm of the sophisticated German bureaucracy was involved in the killing process.... The GG was partially autonomous, so German ministries only partially influenced the GG. GG bureaucracy was German but it also wasn't German.Xx236 (talk) 06:39, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Throughout the German occupation, many Poles

It seems that the Jews weren't Poles, a difficult question.Xx236 (talk) 11:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

•  Done. Poor wording improved. Thanks for noticing, Poeticbent talk 14:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

The article doesn't describe the division of Poland

Nazi occupied Poland was divided into many parts and any part had specific structure of the Holocaust. Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• I will work on that. Thanks for mentioning this, Poeticbent talk 15:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Brand new opening section Background added. Poeticbent talk 22:20, 24 September 2015 (UTC)