Talk:Hajj

Capitalisation

Any reason that hajj is capitalised throughout this article? Sources and style guides do not support this. —  AjaxSmack  19:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: I'm not sure which guidelines or sources you are referring to, but it's 'the' Hajj as a named event as opposed to 'a' hajj, i.e.: any old pilgrimage. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

​There is no "hajj, i.e.: any old pilgrimage" in English. Style guides that prescribe lowercase hajj include The Economist, the AP, and the The New York Times. Dictionaries such as Oxford, Cambridge and Merriam Webster also use the lowercase. Other encylopædias such as Britannica and the New Encyclopedia of Islam use the lowercase. Here's a good list of lowercase vs. capitalised terms in Scientific Research and Scholarly Writing in Islam: An Academic and Religious Guide for Researchers and Writers.

While some sources capitalise, Wikipedia guidelines (WP:MOSCAPS) say "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia". This is not the case with hajj. MOS:ISMCAPS notes that "spiritual or religious events are capitalized only when referring to proper names of specific incidents or periods." While the examples of such "events" are not of the same nature as the hajj, the gist of MOS:ISMCAPS points to lowercase for the term. —  AjaxSmack  16:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The preponderance of references for the article currently use Hajj with with a capital 'H', and Ngrams shows a fairly clear trend in general usage. Also, it's an annual religious festival, just like any other - unless its going to be easter, christmas, eid al-adha, eid al-fitr, nawraz, etc., not sure what the good reason would be to start singling this one out. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Good points. However, the ngram results you gave also include people with "Hajj" in their name. When I Ngrammed "the H/hajj" to control for that, I got roughly equal results. And the guideline calls for "a substantial majority" of sources. I'll try to widen the discussion and see what others think. —  AjaxSmack  19:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

If we press on into scholarly sources, while it's a little hard to do a count, it seems like a fairly sizeable majority favour the capitalized version. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Too many high-quality sources lower-case this for us to go capitalizing it. This really isn't any different from communion or the catechism in the Roman Catholic church (and several others). You can find them capitalized, but they usually are not in independent source material. This is basically a MOS:DOCTCAPS matter: WP doesn't capitalize just because religious doctrine materials prefer it that way and some sources go along with it. It needs to be an overwhelming majority of sources independent of the topic.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Coming to this discussion rather late, I'm very impressed by User:AjaxSmack's arguments and in agreement with User:SMcCandlish's summary. Ngram-based results are harder to interpret for a range of reasons so I don't think they are good evidence either way. We're presented with two kinds of analogy into the Christian sphere: is "Hajj" like "Christmas" or is "hajj" like "communion"? Both have their appeal, but I think "Christmas" is the worse analogy. Christians don't perform or undertake a Christmas. Hajj happens at a set time in the relevant calendar, but "hajj" is not the proper name of that point in the calendar the way "Christmas" or "Easter" is. On the basis of the above reasoning, I've changed Hajj: Journey to the Heart of Islam to standardise on lower-case where "hajj" occurs outside of titles. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

In terms of periods of the year there is a Hajj season beginning on a slightly varying day in the month of Dhul Hijjah, much like there is an Easter period or the Christmas season. Hajj is not much like communion; it is an annual event, like Christimas, Easter or Hanukkah, just like Ramadan is like Lent or Yom Kippur. There are also scholarly conventions to consider, such as: "When the Pilgrim/Pilgrimage to Mecca is referred to, Pilgrim/Pilgrimage will be capitalized. Non-Islamic and non-Meccan pilgrimages will not be capitalized. Hajj, the proper reference to the Meccan Pilgrimage in Arabic will, likewise, be capitalized." Note I Iskandar323 (talk) 17:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

The arguments above in favour of lower-case still seem to me to have greater weight, but I acknowledge that the analogy to communion isn't very helpful. The choice made by the linked DeGruyter source is odd; is it being seriously proposed that Wikipedia adopt a capital P whenever describing Pilgrimage to Mecca? MartinPoulter (talk) 12:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

"Hajj" or "the Hajj"?

Should we be aiming for consistency in use of the definite article? Text like this: "tawaf, known as Tawaf al-Ifadah, an essential part of Hajj. It symbolizes being in a hurry to respond to God and show love for Him, an obligatory part of the Hajj" looks stylistically inconsistent (emphasis added). At present, we have "the Hajj" in the lead while "Hajj" (without the article) dominates the rest of the text but, as shown, there is variation even in adjacent sentences. I see that we're not even consistent in article titles, having Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on Hajj and also Incidents during the Hajj. Note that I am not making any suggestion about the title of this article or about mentions of an individual pilgrimage, such as "a pilgrim's Hajj" or "solutions for Hajj pilgrims". MartinPoulter (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Hajj without a 'the' is totally natural, e.g.: "planning to go on Hajj'. In Arabic, it is also natural to use 'Hajj', without the 'al-'. In English, it can sometimes sound more natural to add the 'the', but this is often stylistic. When people say 'the Hajj' in English, just rolling it around in my head, it is often in instances where it would also be appropriate to say 'the annual Hajj', of which it can be like a contraction, so, e.g.: as suggested above, 'during the (annual) Hajj', i.e.: every Hajj, OR, where the time period of the Hajj in question is specified, e.g.: 'the Hajj' as in 'the current year's Hajj', but when it is spoken about in general it tends to take on the traits of a collective noun, much like 'pilgrimage' versus 'the pilgrimage'. The first sentence of this article could just dispense with the prefacing 'The' - it would certainly be cleaner. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with all of that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback. In response I've deleted the definite article from the first sentence and from "obligatory part of the Hajj". MartinPoulter (talk) 12:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Massive additions needed

I would encourage other, more capable and knowledgeable, editors to look into the changes made during the rule of Ibn Saud, founder of Saudi Arabia. I suggest more open-minded, perhaps non-Muslim editors... since it appears there is a fairly considerable whitewash happening. Huge changes took place due to Ibn Saud's Wahhabist beliefs. One example is that the Egyptian practice of taking the mahmal on the hajj was deemed illegal, and many Egyptian pilgrims were actually beaten severely for attempting it. Over 98% of Islamic historical sites, like the homes of many figures in Islam, were destroyed so that no one could visit them, since it's deemed idolatrous to the Wahhabist Saudis. Many more changes than this occurred, and it's not found anywhere in this article, the 'History of the Hajj' article, or even in the 'mahmal' article. It really does seem like a concerted effort to erase that aspect of Saudi history. Perhaps a good start for anyone looking for information and citations on this issue: https://www.ihrc.org.uk/whose-hajj-is-it-anyway/

Bzzzing (talk) 18:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Darb al-Hajj article needed

Very important topic, dealt with with just one sentence! Arminden (talk) 08:34, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not a great page. One of the many not-so-good GAs of yesteryear. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"Pilgrimae to mecca" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Pilgrimae to mecca has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 15 § Pilgrimae to mecca until a consensus is reached.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  22:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Darb el-Hajj needs own article

Discussion opened at Talk:History of Hajj#Darb el-Hajj needs own article + more info here, please contribute there. The Darb el-Hajj/darb al-hajj (red links introduced) is a major topic, hardly touched upon! Arminden (talk) 15:44, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Light article

I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems this article is very light on details despite the Hajj being a huge and significant event. I'm here after another deadly incident this time due to heat, but there's only a short section about crowd-control problems that deals with the tragic and recurring issue of mass casualties at the Hajj. 2A0D:6FC0:B01:A400:241E:6E3F:5783:AC2F (talk) 07:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)