Talk:The Great Wave off Kanagawa/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Artem.G (talk · contribs) 19:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Happy to review this article! Artem.G (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments:

Infobox

• Dates: 1830-1833 - what is the source? I didn't find it in text, and british museum, f.e., gives 1831 [1]
  • I couldn't find the source for that, therefore changed it to "late 1831" per the British Museum source.

Context

• I think both sections can be shortened - f.e. in "Author" there is no reason to include such details as After a year with his teacher, he gave him the name Shunrō, which he used in the signing of his first works in 1779.[11] or Because he was never recognised as heir, it is likely that his mother was a concubine.[10], etc
  • Removed a good chunk.
• In "Ukiyo-e art" first paragraph should be sourced.
  • I intentionally left this paragraph unsourced as it's a copy of the lead from the FA article Ukiyo-e.

Description

• and was produced in an ōban size of 25 cm high by 37 cm wide - link ōban, use convert template for dimensions
  • Done.
• It is worth noting that in Japan, the mountain is considered a sacred national symbol of Japan, and its image is used in national art as a symbol of beauty.[21][22] - ref 21 is Kuitert, Wybe; Peterse, A. H. (1999). Japanese Flowering Cherries. and seems a really strange choice for an ukiyo-e article. ref 22 is also not about Hokusai or ukiyo-e. I would remove that, or maybe look for a better source.
  • Removed the sentence.
• There are eight rowers per boat, who hold on to their oars. There are two more passengers at the front of each boat, so there are a total of thirty men in the picture, although only 22 are visible. source says "in these oshiokuri there are eight scullers and two relief crew members per boat" which is not the same as eight rowers per boat [and] two more passengers
  • Changed "passengers" to "relief crew members"
• Andreas Ramos, an American writer, adds:[28] - what makes him an expert? The ref is to his personal blog (site), so it's not a reliable source.
  • Removed.
• Given his humble origins, Hokusai had no surname, and his first nickname, Katsushika, was derived from the region he came from. Throughout his career, he used over 30 different names and never started a new cycle of work without changing his name, leaving his name to his students.[30] - ref is

"Goncourt, Edmond de (15 September 2015). Hokusai. Parkstone International. ISBN 978-1-78310-771-1." I googled it, and found this [2] strange edition; maybe it would be better to cite from original [3]? And maybe any modern source is available?

• • Original is in French, so it'd be inefficient for our English-speaking readers. The one currently used in the article is published by a reliable publishing house in 2015, so I don't see any issues with its use.

Creation

• Dates - in the infobox the dates are given as 1830-1833; here there is no mention of 1833
  • Added information about 1831.
• Perhaps as a result of these issues, the series were as powerful and innovative. - page 120 of the source doesn't support it. Page 121 reads " Perhaps through his work Hokusai found salvation in his own particular floating world; the power and inventiveness of the work in the ‘Thirty-six views’ series may be ascribable to his hardships." It seems important, but I see no reason to imply that this inventiveness was Perhaps as a result of these issues
  • Corrected the page; The source gives the implication by using "..may be ascribable to his hardships", so I think it's fine to include.
• he sent his grandson to the countryside with his father, Hokusai's son-in-law, in 1830 per source - "he sent the grandson off with his father, Hokusai’s son-in-law, to the country" - seems like close paraphrase, maybe better just quote this sentence?
  • Changed it a bit more; It shouldn't be a problem now.
• bullet points are unsourced, should all be referenced to These are Kanagawa-oki Honmoku no Zu and Oshiokuri Hato Tsusen no Zu, both works with the same subject matter as The Great Wave:[24][32] these sources?
  • Removed. The original source was a blog, which I removed before the nomination, but forgot to remove the bullet points.
• In The Great Wave, Hokusai brings together and assembles various themes that are particularly dear to him. ... - I can't find how the source supports this, please quote here.
  • Removed. The "Artist's Experession" section also merged into the "Description" section to be more fitting.
• "Tale of a Hundred [ghosts]," dealt with supernatural themes more explicitly. - link One Hundred Ghost Stories
  • Done.
• The wave's silhouette also resembles that of a massive dragon, which the author frequently depicts, even on Fuji.[37] - source doesn't say that the wave resembles a dragon
  • Added citation.

Reading direction

• Although the Japanese language is read from top to bottom, it is important to note that it is read from right to left, as opposed to left to right for Westerners.[26] - source says "The waves come from the south, from the left in the image; it is traditional in Japanese painting that the sudden appearance of something extraordinary or unexpected is represented by an object depicted on the left or moving from left to right, as the eye proceeds from right to left, in accordance with Japanese writing." need to be paraphrased, nothing about "Westerners" is in the source.
  • Rewrote the section
• This distinction implies that a Japanese person's first impression of the image differs from that of a Westerner:[40] - what makes the source reliable? and also it reads "The Great Wave is all the more compelling to the viewer who scans the scene right to left because; it nearly swamps the narrow boat as it also seems to engulf the observer!" - nothing about "Westerner"
  • Refer to above point
• same about bullet points
  • Refer to above point

Western influence

• When the figures appear larger in a landscape, they can be understood to be the true subject of the image, while the surrounding trees and mountains are reduced so that they do not monopolise the attention of the main figures. - unsourced
  • Rewrote paragraph.
• Perspective, first used in Western paintings by Paolo Uccello and Piero della Francesca, arrived in Japan in the 18th century - for me, Perspective ... arrived looks strange, maybe "introduced to Japanese artists" or smth similar?
  • Done.
• This innovation was an immediate success,[29] and in the New Year of 1831, Hokusai's publisher, Nishimuraya Yohachi (Eijudō), advertised the innovation everywhere,[49] and the following year Nishimuraya published the next ten prints in the series Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji, all of which are unique in that some of them are printed using the aizuri-e technique: images printed exclusively in blue. - this sentence would be better if splitted. The next one is unsourced.
  • Split. Added citation.
• I also can't verify anything from Bayou, Hélène (2008). Hokusai 1760–1849 – "L'affolé de son art" d'Edmond de Goncourt à Norbert Lagane (in French), so would think that you checked it.

Prints

• There are several copies of The Great Wave in existence around the world. - and the last sentence Because the series was so popular when it was initially launched, copies were created until the plates were severely worn. ... goes well together. I think it can be rearrenged, so it would be obvious later why there are so many prints in different museums.
  • Rearranged.
• Great nineteenth-century private collectors... - clunky
  • Removed "Great".

Influence

• Hayashi needs to be disambiguated
  • Done.
• gallery here is ok, but none of the images is discussed in text, maybe something could be said about it?
  • Done.
• The painting was the 93rd in the series and was released on 4 September 2010 - I believe that the painting was not released on 4 September, maybe an episode?
  • Yep, fixed.

Would look to some sources later. Article is not bad, but I think that it needs some work. Please ping me here when the comments would be resolved or if you'll have any questions. Artem.G (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Artem.G: Thank you for such an in-depth review! I've addressed all of your concerns above and would be happy to make any additional changes you believe are necessary. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 22:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for quick fixes!

Source review:

• Dudley, J. M.; Sarano, V.; Dias, F. (2013) - unused, move to further reading
  • Moved.
• Estampes japonaises: images d'un monde éphémère (in French) - unused, remove, seems to be not about Hokusai
  • Done.
• Ford, Elise Hartman (2006). Fromer's Washington, D.C. 2006 - unused, remove
  • Done.
• Goncourt, Edmond de (15 September 2015). Hokusai. Parkstone International - I was unable to find that edition by ISBN, changed to ASIN, feel free to revert if it's my mistake
  • All good.
• Hokusai died in 1849,[13] at the age of 89.[14] - it seems strange to source the year of his death and his age to two different sources, I'd simplify it to one and remove another completely (Guth)
  • Weston source doesn't mention the year, only the age.
• Guth, Christine (2011). - used only here: Hokusai died in 1849,[13]
  • Kept per above.
• Guth, Christine (2010). Art of Edo Japan: The Artist and the City 1615-1868 - unsused, remove or move to Further reading
  • Removed.
• Honour, Hugh; Fleming, John (2005). A World History of Art. - used for The wave's silhouette also resembles that of a dragon, which the author frequently depicts, even on Fuji.[26] - page needed
  • Only way for me to access the book was through Google Books, which doesn't show the page numbers. [4]
• Kuitert, Wybe; Peterse, A. H. (1999). Japanese Flowering Cherries - unused, remove
  • Done.
• Robinson, Dindy (15 August 1996). World Cultures Through Art Activities - unused, remove
  • Done.
• Sagner-Düchting, Karin (1998). Claude Monet, 1840-1926: A Feast for the Eyes - unused, remove
  • Done.
• Sueur-Hermel, Valérie (2009). Henri Rivière: entre impressionnisme et japonisme (in French) - I've added ISBN and fixed last name capitalization
• In External links: BBC audio file A History of the World in 100 Objects - rename to smth like "Episode from the BBC show A History of the World in 100 Objects" or similar
  • Done.

• All images are public domain or CC, look good.

Everything else looks good. I'll reread the whole article again, will post comments later. Artem.G (talk) 11:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Artem.G: All points addressed above. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 11:21, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Continue (sorry that comments are not in order):

• I think that lead can be expanded to include that the print is an important source of inspiration for many artists, with most known examples mentioned.
  • I'm not really great with writing lead material, so I'd like to ask for your input on this before it's published. Is this sentence good enough and if it is, should it be a separate paragraph in the lead or part of the second paragraph?: "The Great Wave is one of the most reproduced and most instantly recognized artworks in the world. It has influenced several notable artists and musicians, including Vincent Van Gogh, Claude Debussy, Claude Monet, Hiroshige and more."
• about the wave - in "Sea and the waves" you wrote: The wave is generally described as that produced by a tsunami or a giant wave,, but at least this one source (On Hokusai's Great wave off Kanagawa: localization, linearity and a rogue wave in sub-Antarctic waters) says it can be a rogue wave. I think it can be included.
  • Added.
• on different versions of the print - there is "Prints in the world" section, that say Because the series was so popular when it was initially launched, copies were created until the plates were severely worn. The pinkness of the sky, which fades more in worn copies, and broken lines around the cartouche were the first indicators of wear. This can be discussed more detailed, as the print is the most recognizable Hokusai's work. This link [5] (from external links) can be a good start. (I'd even include several alternative prints to show how they are different.)
  • You can check, f.e. Catalan wiki article ca:La gran onada de Kanagawa. Small table with thumbs and short description of particular prints can be useful.Artem.G (talk) 16:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
    • Done
• In homage to his work, he published a series of lithographs titled The Thirty-Six Views of the Eiffel Tower in 1902. - to his, he - repetitive
  • Fixed.
• Claude Debussy's La Mer, and in literature, Rainer Maria Rilke's Der Berg.[19][17] - I don't think ref 17, the metmuseum, supports it. You can cite this [6] (ref 59)
  • Done, thanks.
• French sculptor Camille Claudel's La Vague [fr] (1897) replaces the boats in Hokusai's The Great Wave with sea-nymphs.[59] - source doesn't support this
  • Replaced with another source.
• Claude Debussy's La Mer, and in literature, Rainer Maria Rilke's Der Berg.[19][17] and Claude Debussy, who loved the sea and painted images of the Far East, kept a copy of The Great Wave in his studio... can be merged together into one para.
  • Done.
• which evolved with the works of Hiroshige—an indirect student of Toyoharu through Toyohiro - link Toyohiro
  • Done.

More later. Artem.G (talk) 15:58, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Artem.G: Addressed the points above. I'd like your input on the first point. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 18:11, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think that sentence would work fine in the lead.

And probably the last round of comments :)

• This [7] [8] articles by the British Museum scientist are good and I think can be cited:

For example, the British Museum has three impressions in the collection, the Metropolitan Museum of Art has four and Maidstone Museum (UK) has one and The number of impressions made from a given set of woodblocks was generally not recorded but it has been estimated that a publisher had to sell at least 2,000 impressions from a design to make a profit [1]. For instance, some of the designs by Kunisada (1786-1865) are estimated to have been printed between 3,000 and 4,000 times [2]. Very popular prints could be issued in even greater numbers: Fifty-three stations of the Tōkaidō by Hiroshige (1797-1858) is thought to have been printed between 12,000 and 15,000 times [1]! Presently, experts believe that up to 8,000 impressions were made of The Great Wave [3]. - I would even quote it fully, because it's not so obvious whether a thousand or 8,000 print are a lot. This gives some background.

They also conducted a detailed research, First, a census of surviving impressions was taken using various sources and photographs of 111 original impressions were gathered. Then, in order to understand how The Great Wave was made, the number of woodblocks used to produce it and how many printings were made using each woodblock for a typical impression was investigated. Finally, signs of woodblock damage and the use of newly-carved woodblocks were identified and Woodblock prints in the Edo Period were often made using light sensitive colourants, such as turmeric or orpiment [10-12], and many surviving impressions of The Great Wave have been affected by light. Typically, the most faded areas are the yellow parts of the boats and the pink clouds (compare Figures 1 and 2). In fact, out of the 111 impressions located, no clouds were discernible in 26

About the key blocks: from the link above (the pdf one), this is important None of the woodblocks used to produce The Great Wave in the 1830s have survived. For the film Hokusai made in Ultra HD a replica was created [9]. The film from the link above can also be mentioned in the "Media" section. Link to the replica can be added to External links [10]

• This article is about an item held in the British Museum. The object reference is 3097579.
  - this link is not working, maybe it can just be removed? Artem.G (talk) 19:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

This is most likely my last comments. Thanks for good work and quick responses! Once the latest comments would be addressed, I'll reread the whole article and most likely would promote it. Artem.G (talk) 19:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

• @Artem.G: Thanks again for the detailed review; it has greatly aided the article. I've made the latest additions you suggested. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 20:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Closing comments: I've added two notes and made a minor correction to number of prints (according to source), hope you are ok with this.

The only comment left is this:

• The wave's silhouette also resembles that of a dragon, which the author frequently depicts, even on Fuji.[27][28] Source 27 is Honour, Hugh; Fleming, John (2005). A World History of Art. It is available at Google Books [11], but I didn't find mention of Hokusai and dragons there. Can you please quote it here for me and provide page number?

If you want to nominate it to FA, more source work is needed IMO, but for GA I think the article is good enough to pass, thanks for quick responses and good work! Artem.G (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Artem.G: As I stated above, I can't get the page number for the Honour/Fleming source, but here is the quote: Mount Fuji's snow covered cone recurs in them, glimpsed in the most famous from the through of a great wave breaking into spray like dragon-claws over fragile boats.

I also don't plan on nominating the article for FA for now. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 08:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I've found this quote in a different edition (1991), changed source and ref.

Everything else looks good, congratulations on the GA! Artem.G (talk) 10:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.