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Miscellaneous discussion

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I don't think the term "Napoleon Complex" is used correctly here...

I removed the section criticizing Thomas Thorn and Ricktor Ravensbruck for their disdain of internet file sharing. Sampling small clips of a film or song, and openly stealing an artist's entire catalog are not in the same ballpark. I also removed the "Napoleon Complex" reference to Thorn, as it is blatantly impartial, and without an official diagnosis, hardly factual. I will remove any biased information that is placed in this article.

I removed information placed about Richard Frost/Willoughby, which was a long description of his recent bands, and writing. I felt it was irrelevant to the list of former members. I almost removed information about Dominic St. Charles' new band from the past members section. It seems to me that the list is meant simply to document EHC's extensive past roster, not to serve as a "Where are they now?" story. Perhaps a "Where are they now?" section should be added?

I for one would like to see a "Where are they now?" section. This would make sense because Thorn always wanted there to be a 'rerolving door policy' with its members. Besides, I really want to know what Richard Frost is up to these days. I can't find hardly any information on him! --Nathan Wakefield 21:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Napoleon complex" was used correctly, though of course it is a matter of opinion as to whether it applies to Thorn. I think that it is fitting, myself, but I would not insist on its remaining.
As for the file sharing business, it is manifestly hypocritical to whine about others' downloading songs while at the same time blatantly violating the copyright of others. The statement I have added about the sampling issue is not biased, and it is factually accurate. If you or anyone attempts to remove it, then I shall match you edit for edit.Pernoctus (talk) 21:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh boy, a battle of edits! Seriously, for any claims of copyright violation to be valid, and admissible by wikipedia standards, it would have to be verifiable. I'd go so far as to say, one would need to cite something stating that the EHC did not pay due royalties on their samples. I've never heard any instance of the band or Cleopatra having litigation against them for using uncleared samples. The remark about Ravensbrook complaining of P2P hurting sales isn't even verifiable (and should probably be removed). tanzmitlaibach 7/13/2009
I am not claiming in the article that the band violated copyright. I am claiming that the band made extensive use of samples, and I am questioning whether this use was authorized. See my remarks below, in response to BSG75, with regard to the burden of proof for fair use in copyright violation claims. If the band complained about file sharing while they themselves did not entirely respect others' copyright, then that is manifestly hypocritical of them. Case closed. Therefore, I'd like to see proof of clearance to use such samples, myself. I mean, give me a break: Do you really think that the band got clearance to use samples as varied as those taken from the 1970's films The Mephisto Waltz and Bloodsucking Freaks, and the '60's British TV Show The Avengers, none of which, by the way, is "an old B-movie out of copyright"? Simply because no one has filed a lawsuit does not mean that an actionable claim does not exist.
At any rate, we agree that the comment by Ricktor should be removed, and I have removed it, for reasons that I mention, below. He did make the comment, however (see my additional remarks, also below). I know, because I read it, and for that reason, I really don't care whether you believe me or not.Pernoctus (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your entire position in this little fiasco seems to be based upon some standpoint that because you say so, it's relevant. Unfortunately, your word is not relevant when it comes to the content of the article. If you feel some sort of proof is needed that the band cleared its samples, that's between you and whoever you can find to think you are important enough for it to matter (good luck with that). It doesn't have any relevance to the content of the article, because short of some sort of verifiable proof that the band didn't properly obtain usage of said samples, it doesn't conform to wikipedia standards. For what it's worth; it's the samples from the mainstream sources that are harder to clear. The B-Grade movies are generally very easy to clear. It would be my guess that perhaps that's why the band relied so heavily on them. -- rivetheadx 20 July 2009 —Preceding undated comment added 16:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]
I guess you can count me in, as far as the "battle of edits" goes. I agree that the alleged comment from Ricktor should be removed. It's extremely "weasle-ish" and I haven't been able to find a source to verify that he said it. rivetheadx 13 July 2009
To find the source, you would have to find an archive of the discussion forum for the old Electric Hellfire Club Web site. Unless the Wayback Machine archived it, it's unlikely that it will still exist. There's nothing "weasle-ish" (sic) about my factual statement, however, and you can bet that when the statement was added, the forum in which Ricktor's comment appeared did exist.Pernoctus (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and did some cleanup of the article. I added a citation needed tag for the claim of the band blaming file sharing for record sales decline. I was unable to find a source for it using google. I removed the remark that was credited to R. Ravensbruck. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Citation_needed, unsourced material concerning living persons are to be removed immediately. rivetheadx 13 July 2009
As I mentioned, I have removed the remark altogether, since it isn't terribly important one way or the other, and it is very unlikely that we can find a citation for it, as I mention above. That seems the most sensible thing to do, to me.Pernoctus (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Found some sources for some of the statements in the article, and added them. I'll keep searching for more...- tanzmitlaibach 7/15/09 —Preceding undated comment added 15:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Every now and again some person with a burr up their butt for Thorn & Co comes along to disrupte the article. The contention that the EHC are "Manifestly Hypocritical" for ALLEGEDLY (a citation for that statement has been duly requested) blaming a decline in sales on file sharing would have to be accompanied by some sort of confirmation or proof that the band did not properly secure usage of their sampled material. Reiterating what "tanzmitlaibach" contributed, absent some sort of source that shows that they did not pay royalties on sampled material (where applicable -- some older B-grade movies are certainly out of copyright now), any sort of "in spite of using copyrighted material themselves" weasel wording has no place in the article, and serves only to justify "pernoctus'" opinion on the matter. -- BSG75 18:19 July 15 2009 —Preceding undated comment added 22:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Every now and again some idolatrous fan-boy will try to discredit factual statements that cast his little heroes in a less-than-flattering light. As a matter of fact, I don't really have anything against the band, although Thorn does seem to me to be insecure, short-tempered, and childish. It was simultaneously amusing and pathetic to see him abusing and flaming his own fans on the forum of the old EHC site. I remember thinking at the time, "He's the 'Yosemite Sam' of Satanic dance music!" None of that, however, has anything to do with my remarks here.
As to the substance of the matter: You do not seem to know anything about copyright law. Educate yourself by reading the article on Fair Use on this very Web site. See "Fair Use As A Defense", in particular. The burden of proof is upon the defendant to show fair use. What is especially amusing is that fair use has recently been employed as a defense in copyright infringement cases involving file-sharers! Sauce for the gander, anyone?
With regard to Ricktor's statement, as I mentioned, there is no "allegedly" about the matter. Ricktor made the statement about file sharing in 2003 or 2004 on the old EHC forum, and Thorn chimed in to whine about the situation, as well. Because the old EHC forum has disappeared, however, and I cannot find an archive of it, there is now no way to prove the matter, so I agree that the entire statement should go. If the statement about file sharing stays, however, then I shall continue to balance the statement about file sharing by invoking the band's own dubious--until proven otherwise--practice of sampling, one that quite possibly violates copyright law.Pernoctus (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anything that can't be proven is alleged. The practice of sampling is anything but dubious. A band/artist/label can pay royalties on the material sampled, and use it all they want. Musicians from the unsigned garage band to the biggest MTV stars do it. It's a common practice in the music industry. Your position seems to be hinged on the contention that the EHC and/or Cleopatra Records did not pay royalties on the sampled material. Your reliance on copyright law does not strengthen your dubious posture because, well, we're not in court here. We're talking sources for a wikipedia article, and you've yet to spout off anything that can be cited. Burden of proof is on the accused in copyright cases when they are actually accused. I've yet to see any reference to the band or the record label being litigated against because of copyright infringement. A fact that you conveniently keep overlooking. Your opinion on the matter doesn't make it fact, nor does it make copyright law relevant here. As for the sentence you removed, didn't "rivetheadx" already challenge it, and say it was subject to removal? Is doing the work of your opponent your way of claiming victory in defeat? Did you stop and roll up your sleeves before you typed "prepare for an edit war" ? 10:30 17jul09 - tanzmitlaibach —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanzmitlaibach (talk • contribs) 14:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I added a where are they now section...only had info on a few of the band members, and i copied some previously deleted information about Richard Frost and Dominic St. Charles....hope someone else has more info on the band members than i do! -- 01:32 19 July

Hello, this is EHC guitarist Ricktor Ravensbrück. I don't know how long this will stay here, but we've tried to update this page, and have credible sources update it for us, but nothing seems to "stick". There has been considerable activity in the EHC camp, and we feel that it's only proper and responsible that any fan or someone with interest in the band be able to read current, updated info. So I guess I'm posting this asking for your help. The Electric Hellfire Club has reformed, with the line-up being myself, Thomas Thorn, Sabrina Satana, and Eric James Peterson (aka Hatch & Jenna Flail). While we are working on a new official website, the band official Facebook page has been very active, with current announcements and many, many fans responding and communicating with us. I am the sole admin for the band's FB page. For personal reasons Thomas Thorn has chosen to remain reclusive for now, and has placed all band-business and promotional activities in my hands. I am obviously no longer in federal prison--in fact, I've been released for almost two years now. There have been extensive label-negotiations, endorsement deals, and a tie-in project, Wolfpack 44 (which will be basically the 'extreme metal' version of EHC, coordinated and mostly written by me, but WILL include involvement by Thomas Thorn and a myriad of special guests from very well-known bands). There WILL be a new Electric Hellfire Club record, with recording scheduled to begin later this year, and hopefully a year-end release of said record. Select major market shows and/or a possible full-blown tour will follow. So I'm asking how can we make this info available here? Everything I have stated here can be confirmed. I can be reached via the official Electric Hellfire Club facebook page, or at this email: rabidricktor@me.com. Thank you very much.76.199.155.114 (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Ricktor Ravensbrück.[reply]

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