Talk:The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim/Archive 2

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stamina draining

The article says that "stamina drained by sprinting and jumping" That is not right, jumping doesnt drain stamina or slow its regeneration at all I cant verify this information, but with 20 hours of gameplay, i am a trusty source :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.186.250.173 (talk) 21:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

edit request

Please change "a dragon arrives, destroying the town execution is taking place" to "a dragon arrives, destroying the town and interrupting the execution". 24.1.42.121 (talk) 22:50, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)^[1] 04:27, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

{{Hidden|Hidden disruptive requests|

Edit request from , 11 November 2011

This guy won the skyrim costume contest at the midnight releasing in Redding California, he's playing skyrim as we speak. [[File:[IMG]http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m278/smexysexkay/lynard.jpg[/IMG]]]

I believe it's wikipedia worthy.

KoreyBarboza (talk) 17:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: That somebody won a costume in a promotion for the game isn't notable. —C.Fred (talk) 17:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

HAHAHA That is one awesome costume. Noteworthy to me, but yeah I can see how it wouldn't fit in this article Zarkme (talk) 08:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

"Dovahkiin"

"Dovahkiin refers to the "dragonborn" or people born with the soul of a dragon and can understand the dragon language (also called Draconic) with no troubles, where someone who is not dragonborn would need years of training just to learn one word. The words, to a dragonborn can be called out with magic effects such as breathing fire or slowing time. the dragonborn is also the only person that can permanantly kill a dragon by killing it and absorbing its soul, this is why the dragonborn can also be called the "Dragonslayer"

Thedanny118 (talk) 01:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

 Not done You failed to state what you want changed here. He's Gone Mental 12:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it's implying the spelling of Dovakiin should be altered to "Dovahkiin" . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.41.139 (talk) 10:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, thats wrong because the spelling is Doväkiin. Play the game with subtitles and you will see. He's Gone Mental 11:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

All that means is the person doing the subtitles made a mistake. It is spelt Dovahkiin as the fourth letter when spelt using the draconic alphabet translates to 'ah'. The first three translating to D, O and V and the final three translating to K, II, and N. 92.22.36.211 (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Additonal Edit Requests

This section has been modified by User:Akjar13 to make it more readable.

Article needs complete rethink/rework. Include the following edits ...

• Regarding the sentence, "The open world gameplay of the Elder Scrolls series returns in Skyrim; the player can explore the land at will and ignore or postpone the main quest indefinitely." Remove "explore the land at will" or change it to clarify. It cannot be explored "at will" (which is a subjective, inaccurate, term). There are numerous restrictions and controls set in the game by the developers. Suggestion: change to "explore the land with great freedom, but with several restrictions set by the developers." If you don't know what these restrictions are, then the article writer needs to allow so-called "forum" enteries in the discussion page to help enlighten him or her (i.e., stop deleting what seems to be a catch phrase allowing removal of comments stating negative observations).

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

"At will" is neither a subjective or inaccurate term, although it may be ambiguous/misleading. However, "The open world gameplay of the Elder Scrolls series returns in Skyrim; the player can explore the land with great freedom, but with several restrictions set by the developers." does not flow and doesn't convey what the old version was there for. What is trying to be conveyed here is that users do not have to play through the main quest and can instead wander around the game world doing whatever they please (within the game's mechanic of course). I can see that it may be better if reworded, but I'm not entirely sure how. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 09:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentence, "The nonlinear gameplay traditional in the Elder Scrolls series is incorporated in Skyrim ..." This a marketing term; as such, its exact meaning needs to be defined in the article. Either remove the phrase "nonlinear gameplay" or explain exactly what is meant by it (including examples of such nonlinear play AS WELL AS examples/situations where the developers disallow such). There are many role-playing aspects of Oblivion (and even moreso of Morrowind) that are not available in Skyrim.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

That isn't a marketing term - see Nonlinear gameplay. All three forms listed there (Branching storylines, Nonlinear level design and Sandbox [gameplay]) seem to be present in Skyrim to at least some degree. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your objection. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 09:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Open world would be more appropriate. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 09:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentence, "When not completing quests, the player can interact with NPCs through conversation, and they may request favors or training in skills from the player ..." This needs to be changed to clarify that this is only the case with certain NPCs. Akin to the Fallout series, Skyrim introduces more non-conversive NPCs in the environment than existed in the prior Elder Scrolls releases. As the sentence currently stands, the viewpoint is biased toward a false impression that (a) the player can interact with all NPCs, and (b) there is a stronger-than-actual role-playing conversation aspect. In fact, many "conversations" follow hard-set question-and-answer scripts that reduce the player to a button pusher. Either remove the sentence, modify it to be accurate, or include the greater restrictions in interaction developed in Skyrim. Suggestion: change to "the player selects from a pre-determined (and in some special scenarios, response-modified) set of question-and-answer script selections."

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

I can see your point here, but don't agree with the solution/suggestion. Additionally, I don't see how it is "when not completing quests"; unless the player is in combat, in an existing conversation or is smithing, making potions etc, there is nothing stopping them from talking to NPCs. How about "The player can also interact with many NPCs through conversation, some of whom may request favors or offer skill training to the player."? Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 09:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentence, "In addition to scripted quests certain ones will be dynamically generated, providing a limitless number to the player ..." The miscellaneous quests are NOT limitless, so just write "providing a number", or something accurate (e.g., provding "several" or give the exact number available). In addtion, this is programming logic, not a living creation -- as such, remove the adjective "dynamically" to explain how the miscellaneous quests are generated. Substitute a neutral-but-accurate adjective (e.g., automatically) or just write "will be generated".

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

I don't think "dynamic" in this instance has anything to do with them being "alive" - it means essentially that they are created based how the world is currently (I don't know how they work exactly or what effects them), i.e. they are "able to change and to adapt". As is, the sentence is pretty poorly written anyway though, so could do with a re-write. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 09:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentences, "Character development is a primary element of Skyrim. At the beginning of the game, the player selects one of several human, elven, or zoomorphic human races, each of which has different natural abilities, and customizes their character's appearance ..." The statement that character development is a PRIMARY ELEMEMNT of Skyrim is NOT a neutral POV. If the author of the article knows for a fact that this is a primary element, then include the FACTS in detail that support this. It is, at best, a subjective opinion -- especially given the restrictions and limits placed on character development that differentiates Skyrim and the Fallout series from the Oblivion and Morrowind character-development features. Albiet, both viewpoints are subjective. Hence, either remove the statement or include factual details that support the statement beyond subjective opinion.

• Regarding the sentence, "Previous Elder Scrolls games made use of a class system to determine which skills would contribute to the character's leveling, but its removal in Skyrim allows for a preferred play-style to be developed naturally." Change both the words "preferred" and "naturally" to something more neutral in POV. Who says the removal [departure from Oblivion and Morrowind] is preferred? Who says the play-style developes "naturally"? The Zeni-Max Marketing Departments? They cannot, and should not, be the only viewpoint expressed the artricle. Either state who EXACTLY says it is preferred, and state who EXACTLY claims that the game develops natually (and explain exactly what is meant by that) -- or remove the sentence as biased POV.

but its removal in Skyrim allows for a preferred play-style to be developed refers to the playstyle that the player prefers, such as stealth/sword-and-shield/archer/mage? I don't think you understood that sentence.Bobfordsgun (talk) 14:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentence, "Upon levelling fifty times, the player character can continue to level and earn perks, but the rate of levelling is slowed significantly ..." This sentence needs to define, exactly, what is meant by "significantly." Write the exact metric that indictes the percentage of slow-down, or remove the subjective adjective "significantly" and have the sentence read, "... levelling is slowed." I.e., exclude adjectives that are unsupported by detailed facts, or state them as opinion and indicate the source of the opinion.

• Regarding the sentence, "The player's inventory can be accessed from the menu and items can be viewed in 3D, which may be essential in solving puzzles found in dungeons ..." First of all, "access is NOT a verb" [how many times does this grammatical error need to be corrected in system-related documents?!]. Change the sentence to read "the player can gain access to his or her inventory from the menu ..." In addition, clarify what is meant by 3D. Until technology incorporates actual holograms, any and all special-effects representations are, in truth, 2D. As such, the author needs to clarify what he or she means by calling the menu-item view 3D.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

I have only briefly skimmed this post; it's massive and I don't have a lot of time to carefully read it at the moment. I will respond properly at some point, but not today (I'm sure someone else will comment). I have a brief preliminary comment about the 4th (or 5th if you include the opening sentence and a half) paragraph though. Access can be used as both a noun and a verb; the verb's definition is included below and is quoted from The new Oxford dictionary of English (1998).

access verb [with obj.] (usu. be accessed)

1. Computing obtain, examine, or retrieve (data or file).
2. approach or enter (a place): rooms have private facilities accessed via the balcony.

In the case of an inventory, #2 would seem to apply (although #1 may as well, depending on interpretation).

Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 22:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentence about crafting abilities, specifically, "The player's effectiveness in combat relies on the use of weapons and armor, which may be bought or created at forges, and magic, which may also be bought or unlocked." It may serve the experienced Elder-Scrolls reader if the article included clarification that this Fallout-familar feature now replaces the armorer hammer and the morta-and-pestle items that used to be available in the prior games. Reading the exiting paragraph alone may not be enough to alert expectant players of the change.

• Regarding the sentence about the quick-access menu, specifically, "Weapons and magic are assigned to each hand, allowing for dual-wielding, and can be swapped out through a quick-access menu of favorite items." The author may serve the reader more if the limitations in gaining access to the regular menu may be deemed more cumbersome to some Elder-Scrolls players. More buttons need to be pressed to save the game, to view the map, etc. The menu list of items can no longer be sorted by sub-details such as weight, price, damage, etc. It is now just alpha-sorted by name.

• Another important difference, not noted in the article, is that the use a true "journal" has been elminated from the game; replaced by a quest-line listings that is similar to the Fallout series. The journal was an important, and in the subjective viewpoint of some players, a character-bonding feature of the earlier Elder-Scrolls games. It may be a major shortcoming that the article ignores its removal. Please note the removal/reduction/restriction of the journal feature in the article.

• Regarding the sentence, "If the player drops unwanted loot, such as a shield or item of clothing, NPCs will attempt to pick the item up, some even asking the player's permission to take the item." The sentence needs to be changed to be more accurate. Not all [in fact, only a few] NPCs attempt to pick up dropped items. Many items can be dropped, espeically in the wilderness, without fear of losing some of them. It is very important that this sentence clarify this -- especially given the fact of game play (due to the weight-carrying restrictions, many players make it a constant habit to store piles of items in order to return at later dates to retrieve and sell them.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

"Regarding the sentence, "If the player drops unwanted loot, such as a shield or item of clothing, NPCs will attempt to pick the item up, some even asking the player's permission to take the item." The sentence needs to be changed to be more accurate. Not all [in fact, only a few] NPCs attempt to pick up dropped items."

Changed to "Some NPCs will attempt to pick the item up" Bobfordsgun (talk) 16:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• Along the same line of thought regarding overencumbered PCs (player characters), a good feature of Fallout have been included in Skyrim. Unlike Oblivion, the PC can still move when overencumbered (albeit, slowly, and without the ability to run). In addition, the player character can now jump while overencumbered (a feature unavailable in prior versions of the Fallout games as well). The article may be more helpful if both these benefits were included.

• Regarding the sentence, "Early in the game, the player character learns that they are Dragonborn, which allows the player to use powerful spells called dragon shouts." This needs clarification. The use of dragon shouts only happens "early" in the game if the player choses to follow the main quest from the start. If he or she waits to progress along the main quest-line, the ability to use dragon shouts will be stalled as well. In addtion, the adjective "powerful" to describe the dragon shouts is a subjective POV adjective. Some players do not belive the shouts are markedly "powerful". Hence, the adjective may need to be removed or changed to something less in agreement with the Zeni-Max advertisement releases.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

Changed to "Early in the main quest, the player character learns that they are Dragonborn"Bobfordsgun (talk) 13:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the articles constant comparison of Skyrim with the earlier Elder Scrolls games is not NEUTRAL POV. Many aspects of the game are more similar with the Fallout series than with the earlier Elder Scrolls games (Oblivion and Morrowind). As such, the author may need to rework the whole article or exclude the numerous statements that link Oblivion and Morrowind to Skyrim in its gameplay, quest-line, and general role-playing and NPC-interactive feautures. As the article stands, the references linking similariites between Skyrim with either Oblivion or Morrowind are taken from statements made by the Zeni-Max/Bethesda corporation or game-release magazines that have a vested (conflict of) interest in lauding the positive features of the game. Hence, the author may need to provide NEUTRAL POV details (facts) supporting the blanket marketing statements, or else remove all commentary regarding Oblivion, Morrowind, and the earlier Elder Scrolls series. At present, much opinon but few facts are used to give the impression that Skyrim shares any marked continuity to the earlier E.S. series (i.e., in game play, graphics, player-involvement).

• Regarding the sentence, "Skyrim was conceptualized shortly after the release of Oblivion in 2006.[28] Works on Skyrim did not begin until Fallout 3's release in 2008; developers considered the game to be a spiritual successor to both Fallout 3 and previous Elder Scrolls games .." If the author includes what "developers consider" in the article, then he or she might also need to include what "players consider" after playing the game. At present, many such comments entered in the discussion page are deleted as "forum specific". In so doing, the author may be slanting the artical in a bias (non-neutral) POV that favors the corporate marketers and publications over the viewpoint of the experiences players. I suggest all "opinion pieces" be removed from the article (i.e., the article contains such from Zeni-Max, Bethesda, ING, The Guardian, Wired, The Edge, GameStop, et al). Either that, or allow equal time (neutral POV) from experienced players giving their opinion as well. Either all should be considered "forum comments" or none, otherwise, the article may violate Wikipedia's idea of free-and-fair POV input in ALL articles.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

Right, after reading this part, I now see that we can happily ignore all of what you are saying. WP:RS, WP:USERGENERATED, and WP:SOURCES are all reasons why we can't use 'players' opinions. WP:NEWSORG, and WP:RS again are reasons why we can only use (i.e., the article contains such from Zeni-Max, Bethesda, ING, The Guardian, Wired, The Edge, GameStop, et al) AKA, Reliable sources. If you have any complaints go to WP:RSN. He's Gone Mental 14:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the sentence that the "game was developed by a team of roughly 100 people composed of new talent as well as of the series's veterans ..." The article may need to support this statement by detailing exactly who the new talent is, and even more so, who the series's veterans" are. Several veteran designers of Morrowind and Oblvion no longer work for Bethesda, including some who have had a major influence over the graphics and the open role-playing features of the earlier games. As it currently reads, the article's sentence can lead the yet-to-play reader to expect that Sykrim keeps the continuity intact with the earlier Elder Scrolls works. Otherwise, the author may need to clarify just what his or her intent and purpose is in the current phrasing of the sentence.

• Regarding the sentence, "The production was supervised by Todd Howard, who was the director of many titles released by Bethesda Softworks." The author may need to detail exactly what (at least some of) the "many tiles" were. At present, the reader is unable to know whether such releases were related to Fallout, Elder Scrolls, or other games. By providing this detail, the author may help convey what the reader might expect from Mr. Howard's contribution to the Skyrim release. Without such detail, what purpose does the sentence serve beyond giving free advertising to Mr. Howard?

• The article needs to detail EXACTLY what the "engine" is and does -- otherwise, the author may need to remove the Zeni-Max advertisement regarding the company's "entirely new engine. While it was claimed the Creation Engine was entirely new, it is actually a modified and renamed Gamebryo engine.[28]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-GICreationEngine-20"[21] Bethesda has officially stated that the engine will be used at least in one more project apart from Skyrim." Unless the article clarifies what the "engine" is and what it does, it may not sever any informational benefit beyond being a corporate press release.

• The articles section regarding the RELEASE may need to be completly rewritten to provide a neutral (and unbiased) POV. Without substantive details explaining and supporting the meaning of the statements, the following phrases may need to be deleated from the article: " ... the team devised numerous design objectives" and "... got all those done and kept going". WHAT WERE THE SPECIFIC OBJECTIVES? Without detailing them in the article, there is no way to determine if those objectives were significant or insignificant, related to quality role-playing or open-enviroment or vivid-graphics designs, or what?! If these features were important enough to be considered necessary in order to release Skyrim, the article should detail such. Or else, delete the whole section -- because, as it currently reads, it does little but give the impression that Zeni-Max was concerned with quality over deadline. They very well may have been, but without providing the details [proof], the section does not belong in an unbiased, neutral POV, Wikipedia article.

• Likewise, I have concern regarding Mr. Howard's statement of what he felt [opinion, again, without factual support for inclusion in the Wikipedia article]. The article fails to detail exactly what the "current techology" was and from what was the team not held back from (release date, specific design goals, or what)?!

• In addition, the following sentence seems biased, "The Creation Engine allowed for numerous improvements in graphical fidelity ..." The article's POV needs to detail the "numerous failings" as well (not just a Zeni-Max quote regarding the "numerous improvements"). A couple quick examples: the sleeping NPCs all lie down in the exact position, with their amor on, and without movement or signs of breathing (details that were in earlier games). The snowflakes falling during storms give less and impression of depth and difference than earlier releases and expectations). Granted, the details and realism is greater than in Oblivion (almost identical to Fallout) -- yet, the landscapes are less vibrant, less animated, and less markedly different between the regions than in earlier releases. The player character's feet are not as tightly set in place "on the lands surfaces" when moving through the environment. When approaching what the developers might consider too close (i.e., for viewing intricate details?) to NPCs, the NPCs automatically bounce (disappear and reappear) in farther-out positioning. If the author needs even more details as to the graphic failings, input on the discussion page regarding such, from experienced players, should not be deleted as "forum based".

• Regarding the "also increased the efficiency of the third-person camera option which had been criticized in Oblivion. The article fails to indicate whether or not this concern was resolved. Many players, including myself, find it has improved, but still find that many limitations remain (in fighting, in finding and picking up items) -- and as such, still limit their use of the third-person view. If the author, once again, views player opionons as "forum topics" and is hesitant to include them -- then he or she might consider removing all the positive, yet equally subjective, commentary from Zeni-Max and the game pubications. Without doing either, the article may fail the NEUTRAL POV snuff test.

• Regarding the comment about Zeni-Max's restriction on harming child-NPCs -- by including such in the article, it may be equally important to state that the player is prevented from harming many quest-related adult NPCs as well. This seems to be a valid subject to include in the article, because this has been a serious subject of debate among the pro-free-from Role Players (PFFs) versus the safe-quest-environment Players. Many players were looking forward to a more open (free, dangerous, option to "wreck" the game) features. Morrowind allowed the killing of quest-related characters; Oblivion restricted such to "knocking out" but no longer killing the quest-related characters. Many PFFs were hoping (and expecting, due to the advertising campaign that touted Skyrim as a more-Morrowind type game) that they would have the choice to act upon any NPC as they desired (albeit, with a similar warning as was given in Morrowind to not save the game if the player does not want to blunt the quest).

• Regarding the sentences lauding the benefits of the toolsent allowing interactions between the PC and the NPCs -- again, without providing a NEUTRAL POV, the article seems to favor game-developer positive statements over facts. If the article allows such comments, it should also qualify and quantify them. It is true that the camera no longer zooms in, but the article fails to indicate that the camera does freeze the player character and the viewing angle until the "conversation" is complete. In addtion, although the NPCs can move around and make bodily gestures, the article fails to quantify such occurences (many times an NPC will not make any substantive movement that is worth the hoopla). The author felt it important enough to include Zeni-Max's commentary regarding such "feature" -- so a NEUTRAL POV dictates that the whole truth be written. Else, delete the whole section.

• In addtion, the article fails to reference the numerous occasions when the actual "role-playing interaction" between player and NPC is taken over [out of the hands] of the player. Many quest-lines now incorporate a forced, freeze-controls, select hard-coded Q&A lines) as soon as a player character comes within "reach" of the associated NPC. Players are, effectively, forced into predetermined and set "non-interchanges" with quest-related NPCs. This may be a significant departure from the player-dictated philosophy of past Bethesda releases. Granted, the good or bad of such is subjective, but a NEUTRAL POV dictates that such information be included in any article that currently offers only one point-of-view. At present, the article lists (quotes Zeni-Max, etc.) regarding many positive features of NPC interactions in Skyrim, but fails to include the negatives or the programmed limitations (i.e. role-playing features that used to exist in Oblivion and Morrowind but have been removed from Skyrim.

• The following phrases, regarding the topography of Skyrim (graphics) need to include factual detail supporting the claims, or they may need to be removed: clarify what exactly Zeni-Max meant and did by "designing it by hand" (regarding the provicne of Skyrim). Regarding the art director's (Matt Carofano) POV that the artform for Skyrim was surrealistic, and "classic European fantasy lore" -- these are subjective statements, and not necessarily informative either. The article needs to clarify, exactly define, what is "'classic' European fantasy lore". It appears to be a made-up term that may stir an emotional response -- but not, necessarily, give a real answer as to the art style. Suggestion, if using a real, defined, art-form to explain the Skyrim landscapes, using the term STOICISM may be more accurate. Another option is to use comparative statement instead -- as such, the article may be more accurate if it wrote that the landscape art was similar to the style that was used in the Fallout series.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

Either you've played the games with your eyes shut, or you haven't noticed the vast amount of snow in Skyrim. Classic European fantasy lore is what traditional fantasy is (AKA, Lord of the Rings, Sword of Truth series, Redwall (the setting, not the characters), Narnia, Belgariad/Mallorean, and song of Ice and Fire). The designing by hand simply means that they didn't use CAD. He's Gone Mental 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the statement, "Howard expressed the team's desire to re-encapsulate the "wonder of discovery" of Morrowind's game world in Skyrim ..." Again, the article includes marketing statements from the company without allowing for neutral POV. Mr. Howard's team's "desire" statement does a couple things: A. it gives the impression that Skyrim gives the player the same "wonder of discovery" that Morrowind gave. B. Oblivion fell short of the "wonder of discovery" and Skyrim makes up for it. Both statments are subjective and possibly inaccurate. The author might need to include substative, factual details that support Mr. Howard's POV, or include the opposing POV from numerous, experienced players. Equally subjective, thereby equally valid [or equally invalid] is the viewpoint that Oblivion had more "wonder of discovery" than Skyrim. The point is not whether either POV is right or wrong. The point is that the article continues to favor the marketing-release viewpoint. At present, I fear the article is more a Zeni-Max forum than a neutral POV. It serves no fair purpose to delete opposing viewpoints from experienced players writing in the Discussion Page (selectively chosing which opinions are allowed in the article and which are considered "forum undesirable").

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

Of course it serves a fair purpose to remove comments from 'experienced players'. All information on Wikipedia has to come from reliable sources, therefore players are not RS but companies are. I direct you to WP:RS.He's Gone Mental 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Likewise, the Zeni-Max statement that "the team opted to "walk the line" between Morrowind's and Oblivion's art directions ..." This needs to be clarified; the facts behind the statement need to be included to support the commetary. The article either needs to indicate how this was done and how such a decison may or may not have already existed in the work of the Fallout series. This being the case since the landscape design (art style, features, terrain, interaction) is almost identical to the design in FALLOUT. Another option, to ensure neutral POV, is to nix the existing, currently unsubstantiated, commentary altogether.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

First of all, Fallout did not have massive blizzards or set in lush forests or other fantasy settings and is as such not suitable for discussion here. Second, I have removed the sentence as it does not contribute anything to the article. He's Gone Mental 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• In additon, the company execs' statments about, "... juxtaposing a familiar fantasy setting of forests and mountains against a world with an unfamiliar culture. As a way of creating diversity in the world, the team divided the world into eight sectors, known as holds, and attempted to make each hold feel topographically unique from another..." Again, no neutral input is reflected in the article to verify this is nothing more than advertising hype. Commentary by corporate execs regarding their "attempts" are subjective; as such, the results must include - and from a NEUTRAL POV - opposing viewpoints that the different regions in Skyrim may not really be that dramatically different from one another. If the opinion piece is attempting to give the impression that the regions in Skyrim are dramatically different (from one another) than the regions in Oblivion (from one another) -- that will, indeed, be an uphill battle to prove to readers who are experienced players. All it all, the who topic is highly subjective, unless one quantifies the exact differences like-for-like. Plant color, earth color, tree and grass variations, retional climate and flora and fauna ... and then tally the results between the games!

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

This is not just 'advertising hype', the holds are different. Winterhold has almost non-stop blizzards, Riften has swamps, and the others are all unique, Mare(something) has large quantities of mine for example. Second, they did not split Oblivion up into regions. An 'experienced player' would know that. This article is not a comparison of TESIV and TESV either, if you wanted you could make the Changes between the Oblivion and Skyrim video games article. He's Gone Mental 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the Zeni-Max opinion about the importance of character race in the Skyrim game. If such opionion is included, thge article might also need to include how the ability to design ones charater race (appearance, features, etc.) was made more restrictive in Skyrim. Specifically, although the graphic details are more realistic, the ability to fine-tune (analog options) the features of the player's character were restricted. The options were hard-coded in digitized steps versus the greater level of fine-tuning that was an Oblivion feature. Otherwise, the article gives voice to only one POV.

— Tesseract501 , — (continues after insertion below.)

Um, there is actually less restriction. Yes, they have made hard presets, but you can modify the same and more options that you could in Oblivion. The presets are there so that you can have a realistic looking character. Besides who enjoys RPing as a blue elf? Ah, I miss fishy (name of old character). He's Gone Mental 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Do NOT delete this discussion contribution as a "forum" topic. This commetary asks for specific changes to the article itself and questions whether or not the moderator is allowing for NEUTRAL POV. Tesseract501 (talk) 20:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Please do not ask tell people not to delete your posts based on the "not a forum" policy. If your post is a violation of said policy, your post should and will be deleted regardless of your request command to the contrary. In this case, your post doesn't fall under said policy, so it shouldn't be deleted (and won't be by me).

Also, to keep things civil, please request things, do not demand them. If what you want to do is valid, then it will (or at least should) be carried out. If it is not, it won't. For example "Article needs complete rethink/rework. Include the following edits..." would be far better if changed to "I think the article needs a complete rethink/rework. Please include(/consider including) the following edits...".

Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 22:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussion Contribution was Deleted

Someone deleted my Discussion Page contribution of earlier this week. No notification was sent or reason give. In the archive, it appears this was done because someone viewed my OBSERVATIONS as an experienced Bethesda game player as a "FORUM PIECE". The article itself currently contains many opinion "forum" statments made by Bethesda and the game-magazine publications. As such, it borders on censorship and promotes a BIASED POV to delete opposing opinion from the the discussion page. Either remove all single-sided POV opinion statements from the current article OR allow contributors to post their own opinions without fear of deletion. Allowing only positive, corporate opinion in the article, while deleteing opposing viewpoints from experienced players, written in a respectful manner, seems to go against Wikipedia's vision. As I see it, to protect Wikipedia's promise for NEUTRAL (i.e, hoped-for fair) POV input, the action was unwarranted. Please reinstate my Discussion-Page contributions of earlier this week, or allow me to repose it -- or delete fromn the actual article all "forum based" (non-neutral, subjective) opinion statements from Zeni-Max and the game-magazine publishers. A fair and neutral POV means you CAN NOT have it both ways (i.e., keep the corporate statements you like, but deleting the player opposing opinions. If I am mistaken, and the commentary about my intial gaming experiences (written earlier this week) were, in fact, not deleted, I apoligize. At present, however, it appears my contribution was deleted due to being deemed "forum material" and removed to archive. Tesseract501 (talk) 21:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about this edit. If so, you appear to have misinterpreted why it was deleted. Your post fell under WP:FORUM - you were talking about Skyrim, not about the article about Skyrim - and thus its deletion was justified and the correct course of action under Wikipedia policy. The opinion of individual users about something (in this case Skyrim) neither belongs in the article nor on the talk page. The article provides an overview of professional opinions (in this case from games journalists, as can be found on various other video game articles) on the topic. The talk page is solely for discussing the article, not for discussing or "reviewing" the subject of the article (again, in this case Skyrim). Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 21:37, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic, but your original post was full of wrong information? You claimed players were unable to wait before levelling up? Actually yes you can? Simply do not select "Level Up" in the game menu when its option appears? And claiming Skyrim lacked the "varied" terrain of Oblivion? Oblivion's landscapes were not varied, they consisted of Forests, towns and the snow-capped mountains near Bruma, excluding the realm of Oblivion of course. Whereas Skyrim's 9 holds all have fairly distinguishable terrain? Falkreath hold is mainly forest, Whiterun is scrubland, The Rift is swamp and marsh-land and Winterhold is ice-fields and blizzards? Just thought i'd mention that. Bobfordsgun (talk) 15:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

NPOV concerns/reminder

The technical issues and interface complaints seem to lack NPOV. How reliable are the references and how widespread is the problems. I own the PC version and have played 26 hours since launch with not a single issue with Ultra/max settings. Makes me question the intentions of editiors. Also how widespread are these reports I haven't heard them?--143.84.43.2 (talk) 22:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I also own the PC edition, I have had one crash only(ultra settings). The problems don't hit everyone, but the cause of the crashes (I got this second hand so i don't know the source) is something to do with running the sound at 5.1, there are plenty of bugs as well but there always are with new releases. Eurogamer is a RS and the other three there reinforce each others statements, two of them are RS (possible botchweed gaming, but not sure). He's Gone Mental 08:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I too own the PC version, and haven't had that many crashes (maybe 1/2 in ≈20 hours that couldn't be traced to other things) either, with one exception - I have experienced the sound issue. I don't know if it's 5.1 is related but it's certainly related to the bit depth and sample rate - if I don't have it set to 96 kHz or lower I can't even use the menu without it CTDing and at anything other than 16-bit/44.1 kHz there are issues with garbled sound. I'm pretty sure though that either 16-bit/44.1 kHz or 16-bit/48 kHz is the Windows default, so many people who haven't experienced that issue may be for that reason. I have also had some occasional, rather arbitrary slowdown, a few texture issues (random objects being untextured) and very poor quality shadows (which I think has been traced to a specific group of AMD graphics cards (6900 series) I think).

All this however is just anecdote. It is fairly hard to gauge how widespread these issues are, but they have been pretty widely reported on in the gaming press, as have workarounds for many of them. Incidentally, the Botchweed Gaming source should probably be substituted for this article on Next-Gen.biz, as it is Botchweed's source, is a confirmed reliable source and is a little more thorough.

Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 16:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Steam

Do need to put Steam in the list of distributors? As far as I know, Steam is not the only platform that sells it. --190.221.111.220 (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes we do need it there. If anyone wants to play it on the PC, then they either must install it through Steam or purchase then install it through Steam. The only other distributors are Bethesda. Also, platforms don't sell games (and Steam isn't a platform anyway). He's Gone Mental 08:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, a Steam account and login are required to install or run the game, even if you buy the retail box. Basically, the boxed version just means you don't have to copy the original files off the web. You still MUST have AND USE steam to play the game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.161.55.218 (talk) 01:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

plot details

plot seems fine now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.41.139 (talk) 13:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I feel that like the Oblivion article, the plot should be condensed significantly. But from a copyediting viewpoint, I have no problems with the plot. He's Gone Mental 14:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The plot is rather lengthy, although it was as brief as i could make it without leaving out any major details. Someone kept reverting my edits to the plot, i was just making sure it was alright, haha. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.41.139 (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll probably try and shrink it a bit, so don't take any offence. Just trying to follow guidelines. I would advise you make an account as well, as there seems to be a considerable amount of vandalism originating from your IP and it will help distinguish the vandalism from your constructive edits. He's Gone Mental 14:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

vandalism? hmm, none of it was intentional. but fair enough, i'll probably make an account anyway at some point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.41.139 (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Plot got a bit longer since yesterday. It's about a hundred words too long, roughly, IMO. If someone can get to it soon, then please do, otherwise maybe I'll pop in and see what I can do—not until I actually finish the game, though, due to spoilers and such. Gary King (talk · scripts) 19:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I've rewritten parts of it and trimmed out 132 words. There were many things that had already been stated in the setting and did not need to be said again. Once I finish the story (possibly tonight) I will copyedit the rest of it. He's Gone Mental 09:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a long plot in general, omitting details because they're already stated in the setting detracts from what a plot description is intended to do? Describe the plot? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.173.119.59 (talk) 11:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

What I removed was background information not directly pertaining to the plot which had already been explained in the previous section. The only place I know of where redundancy is useful is in IT, not Wikipedia. He's Gone Mental 12:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I've noticed there;s no mention of the Thalmor embassy quest in the plot outline, should that be added? Bobfordsgun (talk) 13:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The Thalmor embassy quest, although it was difficult (without being OP), only tells the player where Esbern is. Nothing else developed along the plot due to it, so it doesn't need to be in there. He's Gone Mental 13:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

True. The plot seems a bit more respectable now anyway, and i can't think of any other details needing added? perhaps just shortened slightly more and it should be fine? Bobfordsgun (talk) 14:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay so when I made the last comment I had actually completed the Main Quest a while ago already, and thought there was more when I posted that last comment. Since the Plot section is ONLY focused on the Main Quest, as it probably should be considering that including Side Quests would make the section epically large, then the section can definitely be shortened considering how short the Main Quest itself is. Gary King (talk · scripts) 05:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Spelling of Dovahkiin

I believe spelling Dovahkiin with the 'h' is the correct spelling - this is the way it is spelt in the official game guide, on every single piece of media I read before the game was released and also the fact the games Draconic Language translates it to have an 'h' backs this up too.

MkeCr (talk) 18:20, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

IGNORE MY FOLLOWING MESSAGE: An in-game book refers to the player as the last dragonborn.

Oh and also, it states in the article the player is "The Last Dovahkiin" as if he comes from a long line of Dragonborn, whereas in reality the Dragonborn come around randomly and could be anyone, it's just that this doesn't happen very often. Also, who's to say future Elder Scrolls games won't include other Dragonborn. MkeCr (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree with "Dovahkiin". Done. Gary King (talk · scripts) 05:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Grammatical error

A sentence in the last paragraph of the "Gameplay" section reads, "Early in the main quest, the player character learns that they are Dragonborn, which allows the player to use powerful spells called dragon shouts."

"Character" is the singular subject of the sentence, so the pronoun referring to it should be "s/he is Dragonborn." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.174.110.7 (talk) 20:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Y Done CityOfSilver 20:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

N Un-done; "they" can also be used as gender neutral singular pronoun. I'm not sure, but I think "(s)he" and similar forms are supposed to be avoided (I'm sure it's in the the MoS somewhere, but I can't find the link at the moment). Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 20:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

That said, it may be better to reword it anyway to avoid having to use either. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 20:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

There we go. I've changed it to "Early in the main quest, it is discovered that the player character is Dragonborn… ". It isn't simply revealed, and the player character isn't the only one who learns it, so it may be better this way regardless. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 21:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe you were looking for WP:GENDER, though it doesn't actually say anything about they. He's Gone Mental 08:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually, it does mention "singular they" under pronouns, but says that there is no consensus on its use - it is accurate but may be considered informal. It doesn't mention (s)he (or "s/he" as the OP put it) though, which is what I thought wasn't "allowed". Perhaps there is another page somewhere that deals with (s)he. Alphathon /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 14:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Generally in games where the player can be male or female, I think it's acceptable to use "they" instead of "he or she" every time. "He or she" really breaks the flow of the article, whereas "they" gets the same point across without stopping the flow every time just to be absolutely perfect. Gary King (talk · scripts) 20:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Typo

Under Synopsis\Setting, a typo has been made. "beginnning" in the sentence: "...Oblivion crisis, this heralded the beginnning of the Fourth Era." has to be beginning, obviously. RonnieDouma (talk) 18:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Then why not quit whining and change it? Seriously, was this really worthy of creating a discussion section for?

Bugs section?

Given the nature of the bugs I thought maybe they deserved their own section, or at least some "corrections.

For instance in the article I was it was written "the technology afforded wind to affect the flow of water in channels such as rivers and streams" and yet this is not true as demonstrated from this video filmed using the retail versione: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzBQJmflx-g That water use physics that are not of this world.

Second, in an interview it was mentioned a bug related to a chicken, this bug still hunts the game, killing a chicken will trigger an entire city to hunt and kill you, they will put a 1000 gold coins reward on your head and ban you from the city.

Giants are unkillable and deal one-hit-kill blows.

Dynamics lights, which have been promessed by Todd Howard in 2005 at the E3 demo of Oblivion (a little trivia) seem to go on and off time to time, as the character in the introduction at least in the XBOX version have no shadow.

Not all mountains can be climbed even if Todd said you could, well you can, but only using a bug.

And that is as far as I know, this is Wikipedia and as an encyclopedia arguments should have as much info as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.116.192.147 (talk) 03:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

There are at least a thousand of npc script-event bugs I've run into in my first playthrough, as well amongst similar bugs (massive amounts in comparison to other games I played). Of course it must be assumed though that this is just a personal opinion, not notable, not a verifiable source, not neutral point of view, not good faith assuming, non-constructive, topic-irrelevant, non-encyclopedic information so there won't ever exist any form of bug section by request of an wikipedia ip user right? Although "Giants are unkillable" is not true. I'm just adding so much detail to my rant as to state my point, and well err... kind of hope to be taken seriously to some degree. Maybe there'll be some sort of news article in some sort of major media organization about bugs in skyrim, will that be then notable enough to finally bring up a bug section?213.33.11.240 (talk) 04:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

On my first playthrough I too have encountere bugs, however since the list is so large (And thats with only 24 hours of gameplay) it would be meaningless to put them all in. If however a RS does mention the bugs, then we could include this. I do believe that Bethesda will be releasing content updates (Can't remember where I heard this) and it is most likely that they will be able to fix most of the bugs then. Thus, we will eventually have a new section indirectly mentioning the bugs, but mostly that they have been fixed.

The bug about the chicken is not in the game as you said it, it is possible that there is a bug where killing a chicken will put a 1000g bounty on you, but that would not alter the crime physics, The standard bounty for chicken killing is 40g. Dynamic lights only work properly with the right graphics settings, and that is hard to do on a console. Giants only deal one hit blows if you have weak armour and are on the hardest difficulty (My friend made a video of this, he got launched about 20m in the air). They are also perfectly killable, the only reason why they wouldn't be would be because you would die too fast. I don't recall Todd saying that you can climb 'all' the mountains, however you can climb the 'highest' of mountains without using a glitch. Finally, while that video does show that water doesn't act how we expect it would, it does work with the wind. The easiest way to tell wind direction is to jump in a river, the side you are pushed towards is the direction the wind is heading to.

I hope that answers all questions. He's Gone Mental 08:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Giants are not and never have been unkillable - I'm still using prepatch and have killed plenty of giants. They are very difficult at lower levels howeverAuto98uk (talk) 13:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request: Plot

Plot reads "According to leaked gameplay, as your character is about to be beheaded, a dragon comes, destroying the town where your execution is taking place." It is no longer necessary for leaked gameplay to be specified, as the game has been released.

Ssa3512 (talk) 14:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done There we go, And welcome to wikipedia. He's Gone Mental 14:41, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Whilst I understand it is within the remit of a wikipedia article to show as much information about a subject as possible, all of the information following the mandatory first dragon attack should at least have a 'spoiler alert' notice. Plus much of the plot information shown is based on a specific order of play. i.e. it is perfectly likely that the civil war subplot may be over and done with before the much of the main storyline has been started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.55.34 (talk) 14:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:SW, there should be no spoilers on Wikipedia. This is an encyclopedia, not a game guide. Jklharris (talk) 09:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)