Talk:The Dating Guy/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Plagiarism dispute

I work for TELETOON so it would be a COI to edit this page myself, but I'd like to recommend that the reference to Least I Could Do be removed. That allegation is false and has no basis in fact.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heather labonte (talk • contribs) — Heather labonte (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Right. And I'm the Queen of England.Oneiros42 (talk) 00:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

While the statements that it is a theft are conclusions that do not belong in the article, the fact that a dispute exists is relevant. As long as the page remains neutral and merely factual (as opposed to the statements of plagiarism that were appearing earlier), the references to LICD belong on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.124.86.129 (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2011 (UTC) — 165.124.86.129 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

While you may think that the dispute is relevant, that has no bearing on inclusion in Wikipedia. The dispute must have coverage in reliable secondary sources before it can be mentioned here. Forums are not reliable sources and do not meet the standard for this kind of assertion. Furthermore, I have reverted some paragraphs which clearly contained original research, or putting the facts together for yourself, which is strictly forbidden in any Wikipedia article. Please search Google News or other up-to-date news source for citations, include them with your edits, and then they can be accepted. Elizium23 (talk) 03:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

While I agree that forums are generally not good sources, in this particular case the first post in that forum post was from the creator of LICD itself outlining his side of the story in its entirety--that particular link was to a primary source, not to forum comments in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.161.88.61 (talk) 16:46, 25 May 2011 (UTC) — 173.161.88.61 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I agree with the anonymous user. His change should not have been reverted. The citation was to a direct primary source, published in a manner which was not anonymous making the direct accusation cited. It was not a "forums" cite, but a citation to the direct controversy. I recommend reinstatement of the dispute section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawals25 (talk • contribs) 20:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC) — Dawals25 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I agree with the above; there was no reason to remove the section, it is indeed relevant knowledge that there is a dispute over this property. Besides citations on websites owned by Ryan Sohmer (eg. Looking for Group notification, the Least I Could Do notification) of the issue, there are discussions of the matter on numerous websties and YouTube videos (the 'The Dating Guy' Webisodes specifically). This is clearly a matter relevant to people, and thus relevant to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.13.185 (talk) 10:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I concur with those who wish to add the section. The reference cited the author himself making these plagiarism allegations, which is as primary a source as you get. And I don't think I'm alone in being someone who wouldn't have even heard of the show if it weren't for the plagiarism controversy. Ryan Sohmer's own words on the issue are here: http://forums.leasticoulddo.com/index.php?showtopic=3388271.179.248.42 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2011 (UTC)— 71.179.248.42 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/537261515/least-i-could-do-the-pilot is a primary source directly written (and verified by the kickstarter project) to be the author of LiCD. That there is a dispute is clear, and sourced. Whether it is true or not is of course not for Wikipedia to judge, and so it should be included. If there is a lawsuit for slander or for copyright infringement that is eventually resolved, then that lawsuit will be relevant at well. Until then, there is a clearly sourced dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.61.245 (talk) 21:49, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — 24.9.61.245 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I already explained this below. Here it is again. WP:SELFPUB states, in part: Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: ... 2. it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);

Let me explain the concept of 'third-party'. I am speaking to you in first person - I am the party of the first part. I refer to you in the second-person - you are a party of the second part. When I refer to Barack Obama, or the King of Spain, I use "they" in the third person, because they are third parties to our conversation. When Ryan Sohmer speaks of himself using "I" or his project The Least I Could Do using "we" pronouns in a self-published source, he is the first party. When he speaks of Teletoons or The Dating Guy using "they", that is - guess what - a third party. You cannot use self-published sources that make claims about a third party as a reliable source for those claims.

When a reliable, trustworthy news outlet interviews Sohmer, gets the story about his series and this one, and publishes it in a public place, then you can pick it up and use it as a reference for the plagiarism claim. Blogs, forums, and two-bit fundraising site builders and their ilk are not acceptable now, and will not suddenly become acceptable no matter how much you plead with us. Elizium23 (talk) 22:23, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

However, as I pointed out below, within the context of a business arrangement and plagiarism accusations The relationship between Blind Ferret Entertainment and Teletoons is first and second party, not third.Kyphis (talk) 01:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, self-published sources are only reliable sources about themselves, and cannot be used to support claims about 'second' or 'third' parties. Using the example above, one can make statements such as "According to Ryan Sohmer, my company did ..." and source it to Sohmer's verified blog. LK (talk) 09:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 92.68.32.188, 25 May 2011

On 25 May 2011, comic writer Ryan Sohmer announced a financing project for an LICD animated series, announcing that his previous ventures to do so in cooperation with Teletoon had been cancelled because of his unwillingness to compromise the integrity of his artistic works.

He proceeded to post that artwork and intellectual property from the original project had been used in a Teletoon series. Community members of the Least I Could Do website pointed out that the name of this series was "The Dating Guy".

It remains unclear whether Sohmer will take legal action against the makers of "The Dating Guy".

92.68.32.188 (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)— 92.68.32.188 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Elizium23 (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Page should just be deleted.

No, seriously.

Obviously some stooge from Teletoon just pasted in the marketing boilerplate on this crapass show made from stolen ideas.

The whole page is non-notable just like the crappy show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.234.242 (talk) 21:29, 25 May 2011 (UTC) — 98.196.234.242 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

–Nominated for this, and many other legitimate reasons. 99.250.132.95 (talk) 17:09, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

wtf?????????

Ok wtf happened? There is a discussion but the only page history is for the incompetent, lying "teletoon social media specialist" moron creating the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.249.151.183 (talk) 23:53, 25 May 2011 (UTC) — 184.249.151.183 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Edit request from 78.72.43.241, 26 May 2011

EDIT: Apparently there's no use, in even trying to get some justice when companies refuse to tell the truth that they obviously taken the concept idea behind the series from Least I could do... You'd have to be blind to not see the similarities.

78.72.43.241 (talk) 08:50, 26 May 2011 (UTC)— 78.72.43.241 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Sorry, I don't understand what this means. Whatever connection you're asserting, anyway, you need to provide a reliable source--Wikipedia never includes the opinions of its editors, no matter how "obvious" it is. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Request.

The issue here is not a plagiarism issue, but one of intellectual property rights. From what I have been able to ascertain, all links and citations have been to Ryan Sohmer's initial "blog" or "forums" post about the issue, which is valid. This brings into question the intellectual property rights of the accused, Teletoon. Unless they are directly taking portions of the comic strip Least I Can Do's written dialogue and attempting to pass it off as their own, it's not plagiarism.

Second, Ms. Iafonte has been told by Ryan Sohmer to contact him to talk about the issue. While it may be that the information hasn't been posted publicly, it is probably safe to say that Teletoon has not tried to contact Mr. Sohmer directly as requested, but has instead attempted to stifle controversy and any attempt at debate towards the originality of the program. I will be attempting to re-write the page - linking to all relevant locations, of course - to show this controversy. It would behoove Teletoon to remember that Wikipedia, while an international site, still falls under United States law and if it is found to be violating it and attempting to hide impropriety, it can be held accountable under not just the Sarbannes-Oxley act, but others as well.

If Teletoon has a problem with any revisions made in the future, I would suggest they attempt to fix the problem with the complainant, Ryan Sohmer of Blind Ferret Productions and creator of the Least I Could Do webcomic. Just because you say it didn't happen that way doesn't mean it's the truth. As Mr. Sohmer has not backtracked on his claims, it is safe to say that those claims should be made public in any form. If you believe this to be libelous, you are free to take it up with the originator.

Thank you.

EDIT:

As an edit, if TELETOON has an issue with me being this attentive and/or wishes to contact me in any way, shape, or form, please feel free to contact me at patrick.m.fahey@live.com. Please send any comments - to include bitches, moans, and complaints - there.— Preceding unsigned comment added by FaheyUSMC (talk • contribs) 20:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request

Controversy Surrounding the Series On 25 May 2011, comic writer Ryan Sohmer announced a financing project for an LICD animated series, announcing that his previous ventures to do so in cooperation with Teletoon had been cancelled because of his unwillingness to comply with the changes Teletoon wanted to make to the series, as he felt the suggested changes would compromise the integrity of his artistic works.

He proceeded to allege that artwork and intellectual property from the original project had been used in a Teletoon series. Community members of the Least I Could Do website pointed out that the name of this series was "The Dating Guy".

Teletoons Social Media Specialist Heather has made a statement to clarify the situation, saying that the program "The Dating Guy" had been pitched to Teletoons for production in 2006, a year prior to being approached about producing an animated series based on Ryan Sohmer's internet based comic "Least I Could Do" in 2007.

Ryan Sohmer has made further assertions that the dates Heather stated in her statement are inaccurate, saying that he has time stamped documents showing that "The Dating Guy" was pitched to Teletoons two years after he pitched the animated "Least I Could Do" series to Teletoons.

It remains unclear whether Sohmer will take legal action against the makers of "The Dating Guy", however Sohmer has indicated that litigation may be pending. Kyphis (talk) 03:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — Kyphis (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Not done: your request was not specific. Furthermore, blogs and forums are not reliable sources for such a contentious claim. Please cite reputable news outlet coverage to establish verifiability and notability of the controversy. Elizium23 (talk) 03:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Statement post by Ryan Sohmer on official Forums

Statement post by Ryan Sohmer on official Forums

Statement posted on Demographically appropriate news site

Statement posted on Demographicaly appropriate site with fundraising information

News Article from the Webcomic News website The Webcomic Overlook

News Article from the Webcomic News website The Webcomic Overlook— Kyphis (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 04:22, 31 May 2011 (UTC).

References

You claim these are news sites and 'demographically appropriate' when all these sources are merely blogs that are regurgitating the original forum post, which doesn't even mention The Dating Guy by name! Get a life, and come back when you have something reliable. Hint: read that link. Elizium23 (talk) 04:37, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

"Get a life". Bit rude, don't you think? Each of those sources is relevant to the argument, re Ryan Sohmers claims. You rejected the edit on the basis of a lack of reliable sources, so I provided additional ones. As per the linked guidlines they are not unduly self serving; only mention the three relevant subjects (Teletoons, Blind ferret Entertainment, and "The Dating Guy"); all claims are directly related to the subject re Ryan Sohmer and Teletoons claims; and having two official statements the authenticity should not be in question. Also, I included the statement from Heather of Teletoons which does in fact mention "The Dating Guy" by name, no less than 6 times. Please check citations before making erroneous claims. As the appropriate demographics are Digital Entertainment and Internet Publications (Webcomics), these are indeed demographically appropriate sites, as this is their primary focus. Kyphis (talk) 05:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah! I am so proud of you for proving that you are capable of understanding Wikipedia policy, namely WP:NPA. My comment is withdrawn, on the condition that you read another policy. Let me link you to it. WP:RS. It states, in part, Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: ... 2. it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);. All your sources are disqualified because the entire crux of this matter is a claim against a third party. Thanks for playing. Have a nice day. Elizium23 (talk) 08:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

To which I assert that the entities Blind Ferret Entertainment, Ryan Sohmer, and Teletoons are all First Party in this instance, as defined by wikipedias own dictionary, wiktionary. First Party (see point two one) as opposed to Third Party (again, point two). Also, a condescending attitude such as the statement "Thanks for playing. Have a nice day" asserts is rather rude. Kyphis (talk) 12:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — Kyphis (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Wait, so you're seriously saying that both Sohmer and Teletoons are on the same side here? That they are both first-party? That's hilarious. Elizium23 (talk) 19:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously not. However, they do not need to be on the same side to fulfill the definition of first party as per a Business contract (yes, I know I was highlighting the law side of things, thankyou for that inaccuracy, I have modified my prior comment so that they both highlight the business definition, as per my original intent).Kyphis (talk) 22:48, 31 May 2011 (UTC)— Kyphis (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I think you're implying that Teletoons is a second party in a "transaction" with Sohmer, given that he pitched his series to them several years back. Let me see if I've got this straight. I went to McDonald's today for lunch. I had a burger, fries and a drink - a business transaction with the restaurant. You're saying that if I went on my blog, and I claim that McDonald's served me a wormy burger, human fingers in my fries, and my drink was 50% sulfuric acid, then we can update the McDonald's article "Controversy" section and insert that claim, using my blog as a source? Because according to you, that isn't a claim about a third party? Because that is what you're claiming here. Elizium23 (talk) 23:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ignoring the reductio ad absurdum of that example, the primary difference in this case would be that I provided two links to statements from the official websites of the registered business entity, Blind Ferret Entertainment, both made by one of the founders of that company. The blogs I have provided are supportive. I also provide information from a demographically widely accepted news website, The Webcomic Overlook. In such a case, the authenticity of the claims is harder to question. Your story is a singular self published blog, with no evidential backing, and hence highly questionable authenticity. In addition, Heather Laponte's response is widely available on the internet (an example of which I have cited above), and her presence is even here on this talk page. So my claim has backing evidence from both parties involved on an official level. Lastly, my edit was presented in a Neutral tone, highlighting that all statements are alleged and not proven fact (The allegations themselves are fact, hence why they ought to be included in the wiki), as per the the guidelines of Wikipedia. Not having seen what you would put into your edit I can't say if it would be Neutral or not, however as you are yourself a party involved in the details of the edit it would be almost impossible for your edit to be considered unbiased.Kyphis (talk) 01:04, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above. By using a trollish tone, you are violating the rules of conduct and etiquette you have used against others in the past. Not that this is new, as your own user talk page takes a very combative tone almost right off the bat.

What would Jesus do?

Now, my trolling comment aside, I would recommend you familiarize yourself with your own source works - namely, Wikipedia's rules and governance - and proceed to respond to any criticism or debate with some form of professionalism. I will, of course, be monitoring your actions on this from here-on-out, and will respond as necessary, to include filing a formal complaint and have you censured, if it comes to that.

Thank you.

31-May-11

Patrick M. Fahey (FaheyUSMC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.54.98 (talk) 18:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — 24.34.54.98 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Sure dude, knock yourself out and monitor away. I look forward to working with you. Elizium23 (talk) 19:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 50.53.69.194, 31 May 2011

Please add the fact that it was plagiarized from a web comic local to the area, Least I Could Do by Ryan Sohmer and Lar DeSouza

50.53.69.194 (talk) 05:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)— 50.53.69.194 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I would suggest changing this to say that it is alleged to have been plagiarized, as there is no factual evidence proving it was in fact plagiarized. As incredibly similar as the two may be, Wikipedia is a place for stating fact, not opinion.Kyphis (talk) 06:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)— Kyphis (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Elizium23 (talk) 08:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Sypoth, 7 June 2011

I wish to update the Dating Guy article with information about it's production. Production started when Blind Ferret media producers Ryan Sohmer, creator of the Least I Could Do webcomic approached Teletoon for assistance in production of a Least i Could Do tv series. Over the course of several years worth of negotiations and several disputes over changes Teletoon wanted to make to the material Ryan Sohmer pulled his support from Teletoon for production of the series. Teletoon then proceeded to use the scripts, several character outlines, art, and intelectual property from Blind Ferret without permission from Ryan Sohmer to produce The Dating Guy, a version of the Least i Could Do animated tv series while making the changes that the producers wanted to produce The Dating Guy.

The comparisons are easy to make visually. http://sharetv.org/images/the_dating_guy_ca-show.jpg and http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Least-I-Could-Do-Wallpapers-web-comics-249181_1600_1200.jpg

Sources are also as follows http://webcomicoverlook.com/2011/05/25/teletoon-responds-to-the-licd-discussion/ http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=95083 under the description side http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/159180-so-apparently-dating-guy-cartoon-really-rip-off-least-i-could-do.html http://forums.leasticoulddo.com/index.php?showtopic=33882

Sypoth (talk) 07:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)— Sypoth (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Elizium23 (talk) 07:49, 7 June 2011 (UTC)