Talk:The Darkest Hour

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Coining v. Popularizing

The first line states "The Darkest Hour is a phrase coined by British prime minister Winston Churchill" ... however, the disambig points out that the phrase was the title of a film that was released in 1919.[1][2]

Now, granted it doesn't appear to have been a popular nor particularly noteworthy film, so it's quite likely that Winston Churchill had no knowledge of the prior use of the phrase. But, given the prior use, wouldn't it be more accurate to state that the phrase was popularized by Winston Churchill rather than coined by him? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 05:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, but I think we would still say Churchill coined the phrase "to describe the period of World War II between the fall of France in 1940 and the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941". He was not the first person to ever use the words "the darkest hour" in that sequence (nor was the film the first, I'm sure) but he was (ostensibly) the first person to use those words as a label for that time period, and the article is discussing that label, not the generic words "the darkest hour." Theoldsparkle (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But when did Churchill coin the phrase?

The phrase is the title of a film to be released tomorrow. I know his speech "their finest hour", but when and under what circumstances did Winston Churchill actually "coin" the phrase "the darkest hour"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terry Thorgaard (talk • contribs) 00:49, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence Churchill ever used the phrase

There is no mention in Wikiquotes of Churchill ever using the phase 'darkest hour' in reference to British experience as distinct from French, nor is any reference given in the article. The claim that Churchill originated this phrase to refer to this period of British history apparently has no basis.101.190.140.52 (talk) 03:08, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

I've made a first stab at reworking this. I've tried to emphasize that Churchill wasn't the origin, as noted a few times above - while he did use the term, it was originally in reference to France, and there were plenty of other contemporary uses that are independent of him. The two examples given are deliberately very far apart in location and context...

Churchill - or association with Churchill - almost certainly helped popularise it, but I don't know when that came about. It was a section heading in Gilbert's biography (1966) so I suspect it was solidly established by then.

The historical context section of the article also needs a look over, but haven't tried reworking that yet. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]