I will be going through each of the criteria in order. I reserve the right to return to earlier comments/sections and revise/add to them until the review is finished. Unless otherwise indicated, maintain existing wikilinks and formatting. The review process should take about a week. I will allow an additional week for any requested changes to be made before making my decision.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MoS years_active= {{start date|1979}}–{{end date|1991}} Note: end date may also be 1994, 1997 or 1999 depending on source. See also discussion below.
for associated_acts you added The John Field Band: make sure the line-up has/had two or more former The Cockroaches not just John.
Add labels, according to singles discography: labels=R.D.S, [[EMI Records|EMI]], [[Phantom Records|Phantom]], [[Powderworks Records|Powderworks]], Possum, Regular, [[Festival Records|Festival]], Roach Note, I may have missed some.
If there is a dispute between reliable sources then this should be reflected in the article. McFarlane literally says "By the end of the year, however, The Cockroaches as a band concept had run its course." He then goes on to describe The Wiggles in the same entry (see archiveurl below at ref[6]&[9]). He does not mention their 1994 album, St Patrick's Day 10 a.m. Greg Page, in his autobiography, says "A misconception is that The Cockroaches disbanded before The Wiggles were formed. They in fact kept performing for a few years after that, and recorded albums in 1991 ... and 1994" (see url below) Mackie says he was still in the band until 1997 and that they issued another album (compilation) in 1999 (ref in article). Glenn A. Baker in his liner notes for St Patrick's Day 10 a.m. says that they were still performing to 1994, at least: "But the Cockroaches never went away, they just keep playing, very much in the mode of their earlier days...". Consequently you will need to modify the article to reflect these differences between reliable sources.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Shaidar, I asked on your talk page if you had access to the album's liner notes, but you said that you saw them online, and that they probably an illegal image. Doing a google search on the album, I see that it's on the Wiggles Wiki site. I still think we could use it as a source, but treat it like an off-line source. I've also noticed the discrepancies that arise from using McFarlane, but I went ahead and used it because it's a secondary source, and the most reliable I had at the time. My understanding about using sources that contradict is that the most reliable sources trump unreliable ones. Anthony, in his autobiography, is very clear that The Cockroaches disbanded before the formation of The Wiggles. It's strange that St. Patrick's came out in 1994, well after that, and that the liner notes lists Anthony as a part of The Cockroaches. Anthony, for whatever reason, glosses over that, and directly contradicts Greg. I think that Anthony's book trumps Greg's, since Greg was never a member of The Cockroaches and Anthony was. Wouldn't it also trump the liner notes? That's unclear to me. I have tried to find Greg's book, but wasn't able to do so. Amazon isn't selling it; I can't even access it through a library.
I think you can keep McFarlane's comment but add in a contradictory quote by Baker (both are equally reliable in this context). From Baker we can say they existed until March 1994. The dispute between Anthony and Page is not as easily resolved. Page was the talent manager of The Cockroaches at the time of St. Patrick's (credited on album cover). I got Page's comments about The Cockroaches from Google Books but it doesn't seem to supply page numbers in the views I get.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this one point is the breaking point for this little article. (To be honest, I was expecting a GA review; not a FA review, so the amount of issues you have with it is a little alarming to me.) I'm seriously considering withdrawing this article until this issue is resolved. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My advice is to have disbandment as 1994 (according to Baker) until further reliable evidence comes to light. As for the review, I'm sorry if you believe its an FA one, if you need help in resolving these issues I can jump in to make the changes I've suggested.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You can if you like; I may look at your suggestions sometime in the future. I've looked at the album liner notes from The Cockies' other albums on Wiggles Wiki, and it looks like I need to incorporate them here. Sometimes that happens; you submit an article and discover that more work needs to be done. In this case, I think that it's become obvious that I need to do some more research, and then resubmit it at GAN at another time. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 01:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Conflict between infobox, Lead and History: when were they active?
See above, fixed.
Conflict between the Lead and opening sentence of the main text/History: who and how many Field brothers founded this group? Also give main instrumentation.
Founded in Sydney by brothers Paul Field and John Field, > Founded in 1979 by brothers Paul (lead vocals), John (rhythm guitar, vocals) and Anthony Field (lead guitar, vocals), or Founded in 1979 by brothers Paul (lead vocals) and John Field (rhythm guitar, vocals), they were later joined by their younger brother Anthony on lead guitar and vocals; and by Jeff Fatt on keyboards. or other similar. Note Sydney as location of formation is not notable enough for the Lead.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd add In 1981 they were joined by Jeff Fatt on keyboards. or similar to the next sentence after introducing the brothers in the first paragraph. He is a notable member of The Cockroaches before The Wiggles were even conceived.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:14, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Words to watch: "one of the biggest crowd-drawing groups in the country". I hope you've got a very good ref for this; otherwise it is puffery.
Clarify: "They remained as independent as they could,"
Clarify "producing three albums," Instead of 'producing' consider 'releasing' or 'issuing' or similar. Also contradicts discography; which gives five albums.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
sold 100,000 copies > shipped 70,000 units The ref[2] does not give 100,000
became platinum > certified platinum by their label, Regular Records. Note this is before ARIA took over certifying recordings.
Clarify: "In 1988, Paul Field's infant daughter died of SIDS; although the band continued for a few years more, The Cockroaches were finally disbanded in 1991." Impact of the child's death and disbandment three years later is left hanging here. While there: once Paul, John and Anthony are introduced in the Lead they can be referred to by their first name. Likewise in the History section, after first introduction refer to them by their first name when differentiating between the various Field brothers.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 13:25, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Second paragraph mostly concentrates on The Cockroaches becoming The Wiggles. Can this be condensed more efficiently? Furthermore, do The Cockroaches have any other legacy? Did they reform in 1994 or is the infobox wrong?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 13:40, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fix Fellow band member Anthony Field, along with keyboardist Jeff Fatt, went on to found the successful children's music group The Wiggles in 1991. > Early in 1991 former band members, Anthony and Fatt, founded The Wiggles, a children's music group Precision on the date of formation of The Wiggles is required. From History I get the idea that both The Wiggles and The Cockroaches co-existed for most of 1991.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:49, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fix Individual Cockroaches members have gone on to pursue solo music careers. They are The Cockroaches not Cockroaches. Track this throughout the article, likewise The Wiggles (except in direct quotes) not Wiggles. Also does it need a possessive apostrophe?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Follow up problems from above. Make content consistent without loss of clarity.
at the prestigious boarding school St. Joseph's College in Sydney > at St. Joseph's College, a Sydney boarding school Reworded for brevity and removed 'prestigious' as puffery.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 14:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Précis: to allow them to demand a small charge for their lunchtime performance > to allow a charge for the performance Apply similar process to other wordy sentences/paragraphs.
many of the group's underage > some of the member's underage
Clarify because of lax licensing laws at the time. Were these laws lax or were they poorly enforced?
Now we have the line-up with instrumentation, but this should have been in ¶1.
Again we're told they're brothers: redundant.
Again we're told its a boarding school (or is it boarding-school?): redundant.
DAB or delink Tony Henry.
Without any time line, this gives the impression that these are the founders; however the Personnel list tells me otherwise: which is correct?
While there change bass to bass guitar unless you mean double bass.
"Their road manager was Graham Kennedy" If this is Graham Kennedy then wikilink to his article, and give some description of his wider role. If someone of same name and not notable then its unnecessary. If the person is notable, but not the former, then disambiguate and explain how long he was their roadie and what effect he had.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:35, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delink New South Wales.
even through alcohol and drug use was never part of the band's culture ahem!, methinks it should be even though alcohol and drug use was never part of the band's culture? If not you need a very good ref for the alcohol and drug use.
After first mention in History refer to Jeff Fatt as Fatt, likewise for other people (except the brothers who are referred to by their first name).
"they hired him and his brother to manage their sound system during gigs" Does this make them roadies too? Still no time as to when Fatt joined.
¶3 "In the heyday of The Cockroaches, they played" A bit hackneyed? When was their 'heyday'?
over 300 gigs/a year? Does anyone else say this? You need "According to Anthony" in front of all this rather than is second half of sentence.
Ian McFarland > [[Ian McFarlane]]
called The Cockroaches > described The Cockroaches as
"They began writing their own music" When? Does this mean they were initially a covers band, if so what did they play? While there who, exactly, wrote their stuff? Give a sample.
"issued their first seven singles" Name the very first one and when it was released. Give a time span for these singles. e.g. In June 1980 they issued their debut single, "I Want a Leather Jacket", which was followed by six singles to "Another Night Alone" in December 1985.[9]
"a variety of independent labels" Name some labels, put them in the infobox.
They were "shunned" Why?
"their first record went gold". Name it, is it a single or album?
Relationship to Festival Records? Latter should also be in infobox.
A Phil Carson is mentioned here, but where else should he be? Also check time spans.
Likewise for Peter Mackie.
B-sides are usually not notable enough to be mentioned.
"Top 40 hit in Australia" specify the charting authority being used, give a reliable source as ref. Also note use of a hard space between Top and 40, apply similar elsewhere.
reached #13 > reached No. 13 (includes hard space).
Was "Double Shot (Of My Baby's Love)" a cover version?
"sold over 100,000 copies, ..." see comments above. Source does not mention 100,000 sales.
Too much of this content is close paraphrasing of McFarlane's entry, it should be re-written in your own words.
¶5 "regretted giving over much of its sound to producers" Name them.
While the band was touring to promote the album in 1988, Paul Field's seven-and-a-half month old daughter Bernadette died of SIDS > In September, while touring to promote the album, Paul's eight-month-old daughter, Bernadette, died of SIDS.
Anthony left in 1988? Check time span in Personnel.
Paul continued with other members? Name them. Especially the line-up for Positive.
Don't like this sub-heading. Remember they're The Cockroaches, I'd prefer something like: Afterwards and The Wiggles.
While a student at Macquarie University, Anthony Field founded The Wiggles with fellow students Murray Cook and Greg Page and fellow Cockroaches bandmate Jeff Fatt. Should tie-in better e.g. Former member of The Cockroaches, Anthony Field attended Macquarie University, and in 1991 he founded The Wiggles, a children's music group, with fellow students, Murray Cook and Greg Page, and The Cockroaches' band mate, Jeff Fatt. Note Fatt is not wikilinked here as he was linked previously in History.
When in 1991, were The Wiggles actually formed? Was Fatt still with The Cockroaches or had he left before their disbandment?
When did The Wiggles' first material get released? Name/describe it.
"They produced their first album, which was" for 'produced' do you mean released/issued or do you literally mean produced? If the latter provide a ref, if the former reword.
Some more MoS work needed in this paragraph including: check for any missing 'The'. Ending of direct quotes e.g. matter, " > matter",
Who else is/was in The John Field Band or The Field Brothers?
The Lead had "Individual Cockroaches members have gone on to pursue solo music careers". Substantiate.
Follow up problems from above, especially missing members and time spans.
List members chronologically, then alphabetically.
Adjust each line per * [[Paul Field (musician)|Paul Field]] – lead vocals (1979–91) Note: there's a hard space in there.
Are Dunworth and Hallion founders? If so they should be given an introduction up in History.
I can't find a reliable source for Paul Dunworth (1979–81) as their founding bass guitarist. He was added to the article back in late November 2009 without any citation, but with a timeline of 1978 to early 1981 and the claim that he was replaced by Phil Robinson. According to singles' cover notes he was not present on "I Want a Leather Jacket" (July 1980 with bass guitar by Bruce Hatfield), "Bingo Bango" (June 1981, bass guitar: Geoff O'Reagan) or "Used to Be" (August 1981, bass guitar: Phil Robinson).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:28, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sax > saxophone
Discography
Wikitables?
Charting?
For singles, remove B-sides as unnecessary.
MoS "She's the One"
Works cited
For Field and Truman: wikilink: author, location, publisher; number of pages for entire book not needed.
Fix isbn for McFarlane ref; wikilink: author, title, publisher, location; number of pages for entire book not needed.
References
Most of these will be discussed under Criterion 2. For now I'd rather see Field and Truman, rather than Field alone per refs 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 13.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose);[2] and
I will be checking all the references and each numbered comment below is related to the ref's number as it existed at this time. The order in the article may change from this numbering as refs get moved, added or deleted.
Preliminary comments: For online refs, I suggest you reduce chance of future linkrot by using archived sources. Also consider changing {{Reflist|2|refs= to {{Reflist|25em|refs= (or similar).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How is YouTube a reliable source? When using a video as a source use Template:Cite AV media. Fill-in appropriately, especially the 'time=' parameter for each event being cited. Note "Mr Wiggles Is Back in Town" is a track by The Cockroaches. Format the date style to dmy (same for other refs, where applicable).
wikilink author, give publisher, e.g. {{cite web | url = http://from.ph/365504 |title=Platinum record award, The Cockroaches | last = Powerhouse Museum | authorlink = Powerhouse Museum | accessdate = 21 April 2013 | publisher = Powerhouse Museum, Australia }} or equivalent.
, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 13, 16: per above give both authors. Note: I don't have the book and will accept in good faith it being used to verify direct quotes attributed to Anthony. However this may be problematic at Criterion 4 for possible biased points of view.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Combine with ref [9], use the online archived version from former WHAMMO site. e.g. <ref name="McFarlane">McFarlane, [http://web.archive.org/web/20040419100602/www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=212 'The Cockroaches'] entry. Archived from [http://www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=212 the original] on 19 April 2004. Retrieved 22 April 2013. pp. 128–129.</ref>
Change note: According to Anthony Field, The Wiggles used many of the business practices developed earlier by The Cockroaches. (Field and Truman, p. 25)
Expand: publisher=Texas Radio and the Big Beat Official Website (Phillip McIntyre, Joe Velikovsky, Dave Carruthers)
wikilink newspaper, give publisher. Note Stapleton gives "Ten years ago, Anthony asked him to be manager of the Wiggles." which means ca 1998 not mid-1990s.
Wikilink publisher, add in its parent company in parentheses. Note the source is reliable for the direct quote but is not reliable for record sales, you'll need a better source than a band member. Note: it does support claim of mid-1990s for old manager leaving.
Wikilink newspaper, add in publisher, add in second author.
Expand publisher similar to [12]. Site is by John (and his band) so is reliable for the band, its members names but not reliable for his musicals: another source is needed.
When did they disband? Texas Radio and the Big Beat says "The band continued to record radio friendly singles and albums such as St Patrick’s Day 10am and a collection of hits was released in 1999. Peter had left the band by 1997." Were The Cockroaches still going after 1991? Contradicted by McFarlane. However in Now and Then: Greg Page, Page says they continued for a few years after The Wiggles had formed. (see here) This requires clarification.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:04, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have tackled many of these but I'm not sure of the following:
[7] Fatt and Anthony Field are both members of The Wiggles by early 1991 but also appear on later The Cockroaches albums. I'm not sure of their membership status continuing beyond 1991.
[8] I've gone with Baker's description that the band was still performing into 1994 including for the fourth album. More details have been provided for that album including the recording line-up.
[12] I can't find a reliable source for The Wiggles being named for The Cockroaches' song, "Mr Wiggles Back in Town". Nor can I find a reliable source for its songwriters.
[13] This is not clear, as indicated in the discussion above, different reliable sources give differing years. I've used Baker as giving their existence to, at least, 1994. He wrote the liner notes to the album released that year. McFarlane, however, suggests they disbanded in 1991. Both of these are mentioned in the article so readers can understand that the issue is not definitively settled by these alternate sources.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
The article relies heavily on Anthony Field & Greg Truman's How I Got My Wiggle Back: A Memoir of Healing. Some statements/claims from this source are not neutral.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:04, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Provide a neutral source for:
"allowed them to perform because of lax licensing laws at the time"
"built the Cockroaches' reputation for being a party-band"
"they played over 300 gigs a year all over Australia" (In the Lead without indication of it being a quote by Anthony)
"one of the biggest crowd-drawing groups in the country" (likewise)
John ... "wrote the musicals Evie And The Birdman and Who Loves Me."
A second, neutral opinion for:
Paul Field was "a picture of professional efficiency",[5]
John Field ... was the showman of the group
alcohol and drug use was never part of the band's culture (Given they played in pubs and clubs from when underage and that they were "an Australian pub band", then this claim is anomalous: I see the possibility of individual members eschewing the use of these substances but they are still part of the 'band's culture' if they play to audiences that do use them or in venues that actively promote such usage.)
the group was "shunned"[10] by the major record companies in Australia (see next point too)
They remained as independent as they could (in Lead, however in History we have them signing with Regular Records in 1986, about a year before their first studio album. Although an independent label it was distributed by Festival Records which was one of the major record companies in Australia.)
I've provided other sources and opinions on various facets of the band's history but I'm not sure I have addressed all of these adequately. Where possible I've tried to make it clear when an opinion from Anthony Field is being used to describe various issues. I have re-written some of the sentences above to give the article a more neutral tone.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've jumped in to make the suggested edits with the permission of the nominator. However, I would like a second opinion on its GA status. I'm confident of the article meeting Criteria 1, 2, 5 and 6 but I'm not sure of Criteria 3 and 4: see specific concerns above.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As the nominator, I'm good with either withdrawing the nomination or of it failing for now. This GAN has, I think, made it apparent that this article needs more research, something I'd rather not spend the time on now. That's why I stopped participating in this GAN. I might take improving it on later on down the road, and then I'll resubmit it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 13:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
^ Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style, or the Manual of Style mainpage or subpages of the guides listed, is not required for good articles.
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