Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Tonga

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Tonga has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: March 31, 2017. (Reviewed version).

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Page name

I realise this may have been simply translated from a different language wiki, but I've changed the name of the page. There is no "Mormon Church of Tonga". The Mormon Church (LDS Church) is monolithic — it merely branches out to new countries and is established in the country, but it's always established under the standard name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No country has it's "own" Mormon Church called the "Mormon Church of XXX". There are congregations and stakes of the church, but no separate national Mormon churches. Anyway, I've changed the name of the article to reflect similar categories and articles, like The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Canada and Category:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Oceania.

It occurred to me that perhaps this article was supposed to be about the pictured building; that building is the Nuku alofa Tonga Temple, which already has an article. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 09:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Difference between LDS Membership & LDS on Census Statistics

There is a contrast difference among the reported LDS membership as reported from the church and found from the 1996 census survey. For the most part, the difference comes in what the two statistics are measuring. LDS records are ALL Members on Record whether they attend or not. The 1996 Tongan census is all those who voluntarily state wheter they are members of which church. Reasons for the differences include:

1) Dissention among members that have not requested their LDS membership to be removed. The LDS church keeps membership records even when members aren’t attending. This way, the individual can choose to return to church - many times in the same standing and advancement (Membership, Temple, Priesthood) in which they left. ^[1] If the individual was excommunicated (which is rare^[2]), requests their membership records removed, or if the records gets lost, then if the individual wants to regain full status, he/she would have to be rebaptized, and advance in the church as if they were a nonmember just joining.

2) There may be some who have moved or died that are still on record.^[3]

Also sources of error that could occur through the survey.

1) Some may not want to be labeled as LDS even if they are active members - Even if the survey is only for statistical purposes.

2) The survey in Tonga was either or. Some may be members of multiple of churches, but list only one or none in the survey.

3) any other sources of error that may come from the survey.

Dmm1169 (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Growth since 1996

The church does not reveal how many are active or less active, but there has been a much greater increase in stakes and wards compared to population growth since the 1996 census. The growth in number of LDS wards and stakes far surpassed Tonga's population growth. Because there is a minumum attendance, priesthood, etc for a branch to be called a ward, manytimes this becomes a better indicator when comparing the number of active members are in an area.

Dmm1169 (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Even With differences, Tonga has World's Highest LDS Concentration

Even with Tonga having a significant number of those not attending, if only % of active members are taken into consideration against the population, It is probable that Tonga still has the highest LDS per capita concentration in the World. The significant difference in membership ration between Tonga & the countries 2nd or 3rd highest membership ratios are great enough to show that Tonga, by ratio its population, has more members than any other country in the world.

Dmm1169 (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

Unless you have a reference for the above speculations, it is WP:OR and should not be referenced in the article. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Membership, Retention on the Rise.“News of the Church,” Ensign, Jun 2007, 75–80. Church membership growth numbers are often interpreted inaccurately, which can lead to misconceptions in the media, Brother Buckner said. Therefore, it is important to clearly understand what these numbers signify. They represent the number of Church members, but they do not represent activity rates. The Church does not remove an individual’s name from its membership rolls based on inactivity.
^ Why is a Mormon Expommunicated. LDS Newsroom. 16 July 2008.
^ "Church Statistics Reflect Steady Growth". LDS Newsroom. 11 April 2007 it is a challenge for the Church to keep track of all of its members, especially if they do not regularly attend Sunday services. The Church does not remove an individual’s name from its membership rolls based on inactivity.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Tonga/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: HaEr48 (talk · contribs) 04:41, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take this on. Interesting topic, will read the article in detail soon. HaEr48 (talk) 04:41, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

*Preliminary feedback: As per WP:PAGENUM, please include page numbers in citations referring the Britsch (1986) book. See WP:CITEPAGE on how to do this. HaEr48 (talk) 04:47, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok here goes:

Feedback on body

~~“The LDS missionaries were removed from Tonga in 1897” => use active voice to show who/what removed them? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
~~“Missionaries began a school” => explain what kind of school? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
~~“in Ha'alaufuli”, explain what Ha'alaufuli is, e.g. “in the village of Ha'alaufuli” (if a village) HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
~~Same for Tongatapu HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
“while serving as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles” Please briefly explain what the Quorum .. is. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
~~The section title is “The Mormon Exclusion Law of 1921” but the article body says “passing of a law in 1922”.. Please reconcile HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
The “The Mormon Exclusion Law of 1921” section is written from the Church’s point of view, is there a non-mormon source explaining why the country did this? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
~~“George Albert Smith visited the church members in 1938” - describe what position Smith had at this time HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]

“Until 1935, the translation of church materials into the Tongan language was completed by the missionaries” Use active voice. Also, what do you mean that it was completed “until 1945” (as opposed to “in 1935”)? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

“Samuela Fakatou and other local leaders” => introduce Fakatou by a description, e.g. local LDS Church leader Samuela Fakatou. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

“The Tongan Mission had to create its own materials for distribution to members and investigators” => I don’t understand this part. Why is the scripture created locally? Who are the “investigators”? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~“Due to the difficulties surrounding translation work” => what difficulties? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
“the request of Tongan mission” is “Tongan mission” a proper noun or not? The capitalization seems different throughout the article. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

* “It was anticipated that copies of the new book would be prepared quickly” => who anticipated that? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC) [reply]

~~“ Taufa'ahau Tupou IV returned from a trip to Australia “ => what was the position of Taufa'ahau Tupou IV? It seems that he’s not king yet. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]~~

~~Dunn stated that the prophet was "inspired to call them back". => For those unfamiliar with the context, who is “the prophet” here? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
“The celebration was held from November 25 to December 1, 1968.” => Where? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

* “The king and prime minister of Tonga both “ => name the king and PM? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC) [reply]

“By 1968 the church had grown from just over 3,000 members to more than 12,000” when is the number “3,000” from?

Explain briefly what a “stake” is in the article HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~"a greater percentage than the Church could claim in any other nation in the world." -> You put this in quotes, so state who according to whom this is. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
“Missions” section is completely unreferenced, you need inline references for those dates. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

* Why is the section heading in plural when there’s only one? HaEr48 (talk) 04:08, 25 March 2017 (UTC) [reply]

“Temples” section => Explain in the article what a temple is in LDS context (e.g. how it is different from a regular place of worship) HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the section heading in plural when there’s only one? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

“it is tradition for temples in the islands to be adjacent to LDS Church schools” => what does “the islands” refer to? HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

describe who John Groberg is. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~The first two paragraph of the “Temples” section was not referenced. There are a lot of numbers, those need to be cited inline. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]

Feedback on lead

~~“ the LDS Church did not maintain stability in Tonga” => unclar what this means, please rephrase HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]

~~Explain the discrepancy on membership number in the 2nd paragraph of the lead. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]~~

~~church leaders published Tongan translations of the scriptures => add a year or year range to this. HaEr48 (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)~~[reply]
@HaEr48: Thank you for your patience as I have worked on editing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Tonga page. I have completed the edits you recommended in your initial review. Please let me know if there is anything else I can change or contribute to the page. Thanks! JAGrace (BYU) (talk) 18:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@JAGrace (BYU): Thanks for the response. Your updates look good, I've considered most of the recommendations addressed, but there are some remaining. Could you take a look on the unstruck bullet points above and act on them? HaEr48 (talk) 04:11, 25 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@HaEr48: I have gone through the four remaining recommendations listed above. The first unstruck point regarding the Quorum of the 12 was something I did add to the article in my first round of edits, but it was removed by another user. Second, I have changed the usage of the "Tongan Mission" to be capitalized as a proper noun when referring to the "Tongan Mission" on its own. However, when referring to a "Tongan mission president", this title is lowercase according to the MOS:LDS, to avoid the use of jargon regarding church leadership positions. I have edited the article's usage according to this guideline. Third, the point concerning the Golden Jubilee Celebration's time and location was also removed, but I have added the information in with a citation. Lastly, I went through the page's Mission section and added the citations that provided proper supporting evidence. I removed the information that I could not find any evidence for, despite scouring many resources. I hope that my explanation of these last edits was helpful, and please let me know if there is anything else I can do moving forward. Thank you again for your consideration! JAGrace (BYU) (talk) 22:16, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@JAGrace (BYU): Thank you for the update! We're nearly there, I added a "citation needed" and a "page needed" tag. Could you take a look at them? When that's done I think we're good to go. HaEr48 (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@HaEr48: I have added the citation and page number. Thanks! JAGrace (BYU) (talk) 16:16, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'm happy to pass the review. Congratulations! HaEr48 (talk) 19:39, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Membership, Retention on the Rise.“News of the Church,” Ensign, Jun 2007, 75–80. Church membership growth numbers are often interpreted inaccurately, which can lead to misconceptions in the media, Brother Buckner said. Therefore, it is important to clearly understand what these numbers signify. They represent the number of Church members, but they do not represent activity rates. The Church does not remove an individual’s name from its membership rolls based on inactivity.

[2] Why is a Mormon Expommunicated. LDS Newsroom. 16 July 2008.

[3] "Church Statistics Reflect Steady Growth". LDS Newsroom. 11 April 2007 it is a challenge for the Church to keep track of all of its members, especially if they do not regularly attend Sunday services. The Church does not remove an individual’s name from its membership rolls based on inactivity.

[1]

[2]

[3]