Talk:The Bhoys from Seville

The Bhoys from Seville has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 18, 2007	Articles for deletion	Kept
April 16, 2008	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
April 19, 2016	Good article nominee	Not listed
May 3, 2017	Good article nominee	Listed
Current status: Good article

Scotland Mid‑importance

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Football: Scotland / Celtic Mid‑importance

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Relevence and possible merging

Surely this article could be mearged with an article on the uefa cup of that year or into a celtic history one. It seems slightly needless and fanistic to have a separate article based solely on a self pronounced nickname, barely used even among Celtic fans

No, I think this should stay as a seperate article, it represents a different part of the fanbase. Nol888_(Talk)^{(Review me please)} 02:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems slightly odd to have this information placed in multiple places based on a nickname, info can also be found on the uefa cup page and the celtic history page (as well as the celtic main page) It might be a suggestion to merge this with the history page adding a reference to the nickname within the main body of text or as a header.

Moreover the article needs serious attention anyway as it contains unvarified sources and personal opinion.

The Bhoys from Seville is the only nickname I know them by. I don't think there were any other names --202.47.49.216 10:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Travel from Glas-going to Seville

Can anyone find a source for the fact that on the day of the game, Glasgow to Seville flights accounted for 10% of international air travel? (or something) Astrotrain 16:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Try Google!--Vintagekits 16:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are something like 3 million air travellers a day (according to Ntional geographic) which would amke soemthing like 300,000 people, a ludicrous figure as it would imply approx a thousand flights, which is about one every 90 seconds. Siounds like Celtic propaganda to me, SqueakBox 19:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually you're showing your POV here Squeak - where is this in the article or where is any Celtic source claiming this?--Vintagekits 13:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bhoys

Thisn is not a word in the English language and the article neds to move to a title that includes solely English words. If it survives its afd I am happy to move it, SqueakBox 18:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its supposed to be spelt like that!--Vintagekits 18:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See - Glengarry Bhoys, Danny Bhoy, Charlie and The Bhoys.--Vintagekits 18:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think a less tabloid name should be used- perhaps Celtic FC 2003 UEFA Cup Campaign? Astrotrain 18:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should change the Lisbon Lions to [[Celtic FC 1967 European Cup Campaign?--Vintagekits 18:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If the bhoys remains it should at least be explained what it means, and in the opening. I was looking for this, SqueakBox 19:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, an explantion of Bhoys would be appropiate. I do not think this is an appropiate name as the article is about the whole campaign, and surley this name was only applied for the final? Lisbon Lions article is about the team not the campaign. Astrotrain 19:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well I would be happy with your suggestion to rename to Celtic FC 2003 UEFA Cup Campaign. Does anyone else object? SqueakBox 19:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

considering we have over 100 registered supporters clubs in north america and can get 25k or more to a game in the US. The name bhoys matters to a lot of people. conservatively there are 5 million Celtic supporters worldwide. check out various cletic sites and find out for yourself such as www.nafcsc.comMaplecelt 04:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A renaming doesnt make sense because the artile isnt about the 2002/3 campaign.--Vintagekits 13:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean "it isn't about the 2002/03 campaign"? It obviously is! - PeeJay 11:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

The seven successive references in the lead section is a little much. We're not going for nine-in-a-row, I hope. - Dudesleeper · Talk 18:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WATP wants them to justify that the BfS where being compared and contrasted with the LL.--Vintagekits 18:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

considering we have over 100 registered supporters clubs in north america and can get 25k or more to a game in the US. The name bhoys matters to a lot of people. conservatively there are 5 million Celtic supporters worldwide.Maplecelt 04:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree with Maplecelt.--Vintagekits 13:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DVD cover

The image is currently being used in breach of fair use. I've already removed it once. Would someone else mind doing it this time? --John 19:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the image is being used under fair use and can be used in the articleMaplecelt 13:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it can't as the article is not about this DVD. Please remove. Astrotrain 13:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've now removed it three times, something I hate to do, but we cannot use this image unless the article discusses it. As it does not at present, I will continue to remove it. --John 14:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The dvd cover is used under fair use and complies with that - and the dvd is discussed in the article. Yours instance on pushing the term British into the Celtic article, trying to get Torbett into it and trying to delete Celtic's highest moment in 30 years really removes your mask.--Vintagekits 14:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We could only use the image under fair use if we were talking about the dvd itself in the article and even then the dvd image would have to be placed beside the text about the dvd. The version Vintage is reverting to is clearly not fair use, and if it gets put on the article again the image will have to be speedied (as it isnt anywhere else), SqueakBox 21:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the image beside the text about dvds where I believe it is fair use, SqueakBox 21:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

There is absolutely no point in this article at all, I feel it should be merged with 2003 UEFA Cup Final, as almost all of the article can be transported there were it will be relevant, NapHit 14:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Appearance

Jackie McNamara is said to have played in the article but there is not mention of who he substituted for. 13:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

He went on for Paul Lambert 14:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent reverts

Hippo. I strongly urge you to stop reverting the addition of reliable sources. The citations demonstrate that the name is used to refer to the team by multiple sources. If you don't consider these as sufficient support for the use of the term, then there is no justification for this entire article. Please either propose a merge or a deletion of the article of notability, or else leave the citations there, because these are as good as we are going to get. Thanks. Rockpocket 20:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lead and definition

Currently the lead says "The Bhoys from Seville is a nickname for the Celtic football team that participated in the club's 2002–03 UEFA Cup campaign." However, none of the four sources which I just removed state that this is what "the Bhoys from Seville" means.

In particular, the Evening Times source [1] discusses just the team that played in the final, not the whole campaign, and the Daily Mail source [2] refers to the Celtic team from 2004. The STV source [3] doesn't make any reference to what it means, and in fact the STV production is only about the fans, not the team at all. Currently there is no secondary source confirming the meaning of the term itself, and examples of use show that it is used with various meanings, so I think we need to rethink the article title or the focus of the article. --hippo43 (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which is fine, but adding a {{cn}} tag doesn't do either of those things. A title is but a description, and those sources are the best we have for that particular description. If you think there is a better one or that the focus should change (to what exactly?) then lets have that discussion. What are you proposing instead? Rockpocket 21:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and by the way, the Evening Times source explicitly mentions "..the team that reached the Uefa Cup Final in Seville in 2003." (my bold). How do you interpret that as "just the team that played in the final." ? Rockpocket 21:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That alone is an appropriate source for the sentence as it stands, so again, I strongly urge you to stop removing appropriate citations which support the sentence as is. You might also want to consider WP:3RR at this stage. Instead of removing citations, please deal with the real issue that you appear to have: what exactly are you proposing to do with the title or the content of this article if you do not consider the current title appropriate? Rockpocket 21:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the title is fine. As RP says the Evening Times says "..the team that reached the Uefa Cup Final in Seville in 2003." not just "..the team that played in the Uefa Cup Final in Seville in 2003." Reached infer the team that got them there in the run.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

RP, good point - it does say "team that reached the final" (so, presumably, the team that won the semi-final?) but it goes on to discuss the team and players that played in Seville. In any case, if this article is to be about Celtic's UEFA Cup campaign in 2002-2003, if that is notable enough for its own article, then it should be titled something like "Celtic FC UEFA Cup campaign, 2002-2003" (though that is a pretty ugly title). There is apparently no consensus on what 'the Bhoys from Seville' means, and no discussion of the term and its meaning in secondary sources. We have one source using it primarily about the team from the final, one using it for that 'generation' of Celtic players, and one using it of the fans. --hippo43 (talk) 21:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldnt argee with that statement. So are you saying if you scored the winner in the last minute of the first round and didnt play in the semis then you didnt help Celtic "reach the finals"?--Vintagekits (talk) 21:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its seems pretty obvious to me that the sources, collectively, are using it to describe the team (or, in a wider sense, the squad) of players who played in that campaign. I'm not sure of the merit in forensically dissecting the precise limits of the term, since it is clearly open to interpretation. Lets cut to the chase, hippo. If you wish to propose a rename, then lets propose one and we can see if there is consensus. Rockpocket 22:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may be obvious to you what it means, but the sources you provided don't support your view. I'm not surprised you don't see the "merit in forensically dissecting the precise limits of the term", as you supplied the sources which disagree. None of them actually say what the name refers to, so they're not of much use as references for its meaning. In particular, that STV made a documentary about the fans with that title shows it doesn't only refer to the squad. I've updated the article accordingly. If there is merit in an article on 'the Bhoys from Seville', then it needs a broader definition, but I'd prefer the title I suggested above. --hippo43 (talk) 23:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Bhoys from Seville is a nickname used to refer to Celtic F.C.'s team during Celtic's 2002–03 UEFA Cup campaign.

The Evening Standard writes, "What happened to the Bhoys from Seville?...The departure of [Neil Lennon] will leave Bobo Balde as the sole survivor of the team that reached the Uefa Cup Final in Seville in 2003.... Regarded as the best side produced by Celtic in some amount of years, the men who went down 3-2 to Porto in extra-time... Yet, just four years later, there will only be one member of the team still at the club."

To my mind, it is patently obvious what Bhoys from Seville is referring to in that source. It is the the team that reached the Uefa Cup Final in Seville in 2003. Therefore this is a perfectly acceptable source for the statement, The Bhoys from Seville is a nickname used to refer to Celtic F.C.'s team during Celtic's 2002–03 UEFA Cup campaign. You disagree on this - I get it - you also disputethe other articles that use the nickname. If you are correct, then there is clearly no justification for keeping the entire article. So rather than continue to fanny about with a {{cn}} in the opening sentence - which serves zero constructive purpose - please get to the point and either nominate this for deletion or merge or whatever else it is you intend to do. Because if you continue to revert over a {{cn}}, when a number have already been provided - then I will report you for the 3RR violation you have already incurred. You might also be interested in this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Bhoys from Seville. Rockpocket 00:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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