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First episode is a single episode

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As per Amazon here. Amaury • 22:33, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I assume also that the special event only had one set of credits which would indicate one episode. Amazon selling it that way pretty much confirms that is what happened. Two back to back will have beginning and end credits for each. The press release saying two episodes is talking about the future, what actually happened overrides that. Geraldo Perez (talk) 23:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Geraldo Perez:, @Amaury: - Futon Critic says The first two episodes, not one episode, but two. The other source says Countdown Season 1 , Episode 1 Aired Nov 13, 2020 and Day 1 Season 1 , Episode 2 Aired Nov 13, 2020 - Countdown was episode 1 and Day 1 was episode 2. We go by what reliable sources state and what aired. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What matters is when the episode aired, were there one set of credits for the whole hour, or two sets of credits (one for each 30-minute episode)? How the show was produced isn't what's important – how it was originally broadcast is what matters. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The Futon Critic has a single entry for the episode on November 13. The 101 and 102 are production codes, but we don't use production codes to determine number of episodes. It was two episodes merged for presentation into a single episode, as supported by Amazon. Also note a single set of ratings occupying a 60-minute slot. And Zap2it doesn't update for what actually happened. Again, what happens overrides what was planned or originally announced, and I suggest you knock it off, unless you want to face a block. Amaury • 00:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amazon is not a reliable source. We go by what reliable sources state and what aired. It was a two-part airing evidenced by the credits. Los Angeles Times - premieres tonight with back-to-back episodes, The first two episodes, airs its first two episodes on Friday, Nov. 13, even IMDb says two episodes. You will have to find reliable sources to support your argument that it was just one episode. The sources I presented say two episodes premiered back to back, and that is how it was aired when I watched it as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) See also iTunes shows it as one episode and it sold as such. What actually happens, supported by reports of what actually happened override what is sourced as planned. Once an episode is published/broadcast it becomes a reliable source for its own content. Futon listings do get updated after broadcast, other program guides generally don't. Futon shows one episode with two production codes as well and supports Amazon and iTunes. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:36, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To add: Amazon and iTunes reliably report what they sell so are reliable sources for that information. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:46, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Amazon is not a reliable source. How ridiculous are you? Amazon is a reliable source, as both it and iTunes are official outlets for Nickelodeon and other networks. We've already explained this. What is originally announced or planned gets overridden by what actually happens. There are some cases where two or more episodes premiere back-to-back as a single entity because of marketing or other purposes by the network, but are then sold as two separate episodes. This isn't one of those cases. So it's not always strictly how they are broadcast, it's more importantly how they're sold, and the premiere of this series is sold as a single episode. Add: IMDb, on the other hand, is WP:NOTRS. Amaury • 00:46, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:AMAZON and see also WP:RSP#Amazon where it's not listed as a reliable source. And it wasn't just one writer as it is currently presented in the episode list, episode 1 was written by Daniel Knauf and episode 2 was written by Johnny Richardson. And keep your snark to yourself, and cite your reliable sources that it was one episode, and not two episodes aired back to back. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:54, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RSP#Amazon Amazon is a reliable source for basic information about a work which is how it is being used here. Applies to iTunes as well. Both get a product from the distributor and reliably report what they have to sell. They got a single long episode, sell it for the single episode price. The broadcast is transient but iTunes and Amazon sell what was broadcast so that is the record we can use. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:01, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) If you are going to link to things, at least bother reading and understanding, as otherwise, your point is useless, especially when what you're linking to in this case does not support your argument. User reviews on Amazon are anonymous, self-published, and unverifiable, and should not be used at all. Amazon is a reliable source for basic information about a work (such as release date, ISBN, etc.)... Emphasis mine. The page linked to above in the OP is not user reviews, it is a link to the current season of this series, which falls under basic information. Amaury • 01:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's an advertisement for what they are selling to you. We go go by what Nickelodeon and reliable sources state, here is the Series Premiere "COUNTDOWN" on Nickolodeon's YouTube channel - one episode, not two. Imagine Entertainment who are the official producers of the show also say The first two episodes of The Astronauts premiere back-to-back. "Countdown" was episode 1 and "Day 1" was episode 2, they were aired back to back in a hour long premiere, that's what all the reliable sources state, two episodes aired back to back. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is not advertising. If you're just going to keep refusing or failing to understand how things work around here, then I think we're done here. The current way is correct, and that is the way it's staying. Further attempts to change it from you or anybody else will result in warnings and possibly blocks. Amaury • 01:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Look, all you have presented is an advertisement to purchase, while I have presented multiple reliable sources that say it was two episodes aired back to back. And your threats about changing it and blocks are meaningless. Since you refuse to WP:AGF, when I get time, I will start a formal RfC. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources that report what actually happened supersede every reliable source that accurately reports what was planned. We have that source in the episode as sold. It can be WP:verified beyond the descriptive summary at the sales sites by spending the $2.99 to buy the episode and watching it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:37, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which I just did, I bought the episode from iTunes and watched it. It is definitely one single long episode. It is not two episodes back to back there is only one set of credits, not two like there would be for two back to back episodes. The episode itself calls the two halves part 1 and part 2 for the writing credits. The episode itself is reliable primary source for its own contents and overrides any other reference that conflicts with what is actually in the episode. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I understand what you're saying about a paid streaming service, but I'm talking about the original broadcat on Friday, November 13, 2020, because two episodes aired back to back on Nickelodeon. And that is what multiple reliable sources reported. If you watch the Nickelodeon YouTube vid posted above of the premiere episode titled "Countdown", at 24:00, you see an ad for future episodes and the end credits for episode 1 begin at 24:36, which is how it was originally broadcast on November 13, 2020. Then in the original broadcast, the announcer says get ready for another episode, which is "Day 1", (written by Johnny Richardson), and episode 2 starts playing, and then at the end of episode 2, the end credits play again for that episode, that is how it was originally broadcast on Friday, November 13, 2020, two episodes aired back to back, which is what reliable sources say as well. And MOS:TVEPISODELIST advises that secondary sources are preferred (multiple sources listed above), and additionally, the broadcaster of the TV series - Nickelodeon, and the production company Imagine Entertainment, both state two episodes aired back to back, so they should be given preference, rather than how a paid streaming service advertises, sells, and airs it. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:00, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The references you listed came out before the show aired. Another source definitely published after the airing is for the viewing data which shows info for only one 48 minute Nicklodeon event titled Astronauts at 7PM that night. It looks like from the viewing data that it also aired on NickToons that night at 11PM as a 60 minute event which is more indicative of back to back episodes. On the iTunes episode both writers were listed in the opening credits, nothing was in the middle. Also iTunes and Amazon get series episodes and data about those episodes from Nickelodeon/Viacom, they are not creations by iTunes and Amazon. I find it unlikely that the network would create different video products for broadcast and streaming particularly with the embedded opening credits. More likely if it aired as two episodes it would be sold as two episodes as well. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What you are suggesting is that we source the episode list to a paid streaming service and how they market, advertise and sell it, and ignore how the original broadcaster Nickelodeon, the production company, and multiple sources describe how the show premiered on Nickelodeon - first two episodes of The Astronauts premiere back-to-back. This show was not an original production from Amazon, Apple, Hulu or Netflix, and did not originally premier on them, at least that's what the lead of the article states - The Astronauts is an American action-adventure television series that premiered on Nickelodeon on November 13, 2020. It was 60 minutes long (according to this article), not 48 minutes long, and the premier on Nickelodeon showed ads for future episodes, showed the end credits after episode 1 and showed dopey little kids commercials. This review of the show from a source from the day after it premiered (Nov. 14) says - At the end of the second episode, Charlie tells his brother he’ll help get control of Matilda back, even after Griffin says “name your price.” Nickelodeon's own upcoming TV schedule lists the next episode as Day 33 S1 E5, so does this source - episode 5 Day 33, and so do sources already used in the article, but yet the episode list currently says "Day 33" is episode 4, because of how a paid streaming service is marketing it. If you want to include how paid streaming services aired it, that's fine, include a note, but we shouldn't deviate from how Nickelodeon, the production company, and multiple sources describe how the show originally premiered. Isaidnoway (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is at least 2 streaming services doing the exact same thing indicated the video is from the network, not a creation of Apple or Amazon getting something from Nickelodeon and modifying what they got from them for presentation. What is on iTunes and Amazon is exactly as provided to them from Nickelodeon unmodified in any way. The only difference between what is sold for streaming and what was broadcast is lack of commercials including the announcer messages between the two halves of the episode that supposedly identified the second half as another episode. Also, still the viewing data reference shows viewing information for only one Nickelodeon episode that day, not two, which they would have done if two episodes actually did air then. Other sources given are pre airing, and the other review seems colored by the announcer message. Futon critic source for the production codes also shows a single episode and Futon does update to match what happened. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've watched both episodes. Both had separate openings for the title cards. Additionally XFinity/Comcast cable lists Countdown/Day 1 as episodes 1-2. --ACase0000 (talk) 17:37, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Episode 1 raiting

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it says 0.54, but the source shows 0.13

The last column is the correct one- which says "539" (which is then 0.54). The Nicktoons broadcast at 11pm is also listed, at "104" (which is then 0.10). However, we only go by the main channel. So yes, 0.54 is correct. Magitroopa (talk) 23:33, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Magitroopa: They were getting mixed up with the P18–49 rating, which was 0.13. However, we only report total viewers, which was 539,000, or 0.54 million. Amaury • 00:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RfC for episodes list in table Comment

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CLOSED
It's clear that the current way is the correct way. The series premiere is a single episode, based on how it premiered, but also, and more importantly, how it is sold on Amazon and iTunes, the latter of which is the determining factor. Amaury • 17:55, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Which of the following options should we use for the episodes list table:

  • Option A - Episode 1 ("Countdown") and Episode 2 ("Day 1") should be listed as a single episode in the table per how Amazon, iTunes, streaming services are airing it. - Option A
  • Option B - Episode 1 ("Countdown") and Episode 2 ("Day 1") should be listed separately in the table per how Nickelodeon aired it on November 13, 2020. - Option B

--- Isaidnoway (talk) 16:44, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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1) Episodes lists - The Astronauts Episodes Guide - "Countdown" Episode 1 and "Day 1" Episode 2 - TV schedule from TeenNick lists them as separate episodes Mon, Nov 30 5:00p The Astronauts "COUNTDOWN" and Tue, Dec 1 5:00p The Astronauts "Day 1".
2) "Countdown", episode 1, from Nickelodeon's YouTube channel, with ending credits after the episode - Series Premiere "COUNTDOWN" | Nickelodeon.
3) Reviews of the show - premieres tonight with back-to-back episodes...I have seen only the first two episodes and At the end of the second episode, Charlie tells his brother...
4) Additionally, the Ratings section states 2 episodes aired on November 13, 2020, and the Production section states it was an hourlong premiere on November 13, 2020.
5) External link (not a RS) used in article, Season 1 at IMDb. Another external link The Astronauts - Episode List
Follow the description in sources and also "Countdown" as uploaded by Nickelodeon to YouTube with ending credits, on how Nickelodeon originally aired it on November 13, 2020, Isaidnoway (talk) 17:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A Use reliable sources of what actually aired, not what was planned to air. Futon critic at episode list shows one episode aired and Futon does update with what happened. viewing data Archived 2020-12-25 at the Wayback Machine shows single episode aired as they give viewing data for only one episode on Nickelodeon for that night. This is supported with what Nickelodeon provided for streaming to both Amazon and iTunes which is a copy of what they aired minus commercials and announcements. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A per what has been stated and Geraldo Perez above. On my phone, so can't formulate a full response; however, this shouldn't even be an RFC and is just an abuse of the process. Amaury • 18:04, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option B - Nicktoons reairs the episodes, and it clearly says they're two episodes. [1] (Beginning 3:30 PM). The only reason people seem to want to consider them one episode is because it is sold as one episode, regardless of how it is aired or produced. 72.85.48.246 (talk) 13:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Only original airings matter for this, not reairings. That has been long established. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:35, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • @IJBall: Reflecting on the same discussion we had over at Talk:Best Friends Whenever#Episode count and based on one of the things you said—to quote, I'm... uncomfortable with the idea that the "premiere" airing is the only thing that counts when determining this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:40, 23 March 2016 (UTC)—I would say that by itself, the original airing doesn't matter quite as much and that the determining factor is more in how an episode originally airs and is sold or even just strictly how it is sold. Andi Mack is a series that premiered as an hour special and the ratings were for one 60-minute slot. However, as seen by how it is sold on Amazon and iTunes, unlike with this series, Best Friends Whenever, or other series, it was an actual case of two episodes airing back-to-back since that's how they are sold (and also because subsequent repeats after the original airing have the episodes split apart). That isn't the case here. Amaury • 23:35, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • The way we've generally done this is what I said – you look at the original broadcast: if it has two sets of credits, it's "back-to-back" episodes; if it has one set of credits (as the season #4 premiere of "SEAL Team" did), it should be listed as a single (double-length) episode. Despite this, most articles on Wikipedia get this wrong – for example List of SEAL Team episodes#Season 4 (2020) is listing those as two separate episodes when it should only be listing one as per the original broadcast. So then you start looking to see what the streamers and Amazon and iTunes do to figure this all out, and sometimes they are different than what was broadcast (see, again: SEAL Team). At some point, the question has to be asked whether this is a battle worth fighting, as most editors just straight up ignoring all of this, and going purely off production codes anyway. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:26, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning towards Option A – I haven't been very active here lately but I was invited to comment. I haven't seen the original broadcast myself either, but based on what the others said, this seems to be the right choice to me. It's actually quite common that Disney and Nickelodeon repackage combined episodes as two separate ones for re-runs and syndication, and even for Netflix (or the other way around, sometimes they repackage separate episodes as a combined episode), so IMO we should rather trust the original broadcast and how they're sold on Amazon/iTunes. That's the common practice we've been following for a while on these networks. It may be different for other networks, it's not always clear cut. But you wouldn't suddenly change the episode list every time a re-run airs the episode(s) in a different format. nyuszika7h (talk) 13:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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What was planned to air on Nickelodeon, is what actually aired on Nickelodeon. We have two sources for reviews of the premier, and after watching it, they both say it was two episodes. Nickelodeon says "Countdown" was ep. 1, and the fact that Nick is now airing "Day 1" as a 30 minute episode, verifies they are separate and distinct from one another. Just because Amazon/iTunes is marketing/selling it as one episode, doesn't necessarily mean that is how Nickelodeon marketed and originally aired it. Nickelodeon is the authoritative source for how they originally broadcast it, and future episodes that will air, and past episodes airing in reruns. When paid streaming services contradict what the original network provider states, and sources verify it, WP should be using the original network, not the other way around. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nickelodeon is selling the show through Amazon and iTunes and that is as much a Nick outlet as Youtube is. Nick says there that it is a 47 minute single episode. What is sold is exactly what was originally broadcast minus commercials and announcer commentary. That the parts are separable and will be broadcast and shown separately in the future is not the issue, what is key is what was originally broadcast and what Nickelodeon provided for streaming reflects that. If they had broadcast 2 episodes instead of 1 they would have sold it as two episodes instead of one. The one review after the broadcast conflicts with the viewing info site which is official viewing numbers collected and that is a superior reference to a passing comment on a review. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
According to the way Nick advertised it all week long and what was stated on the night of the premier on Nickelodeon - they said it was two episodes airing back to back. The sources used in the table reflect that as well - first two episodes of The Astronauts premiere back-to-back. And then you have the other source used in the table for subsequent episodes which verify the episode numbers - Day 3 Episode 3, Day 21 Episode 4, Day 33 Episode 5. Nickelodeon sold them two episodes that aired back to back, and Amazon etc. is streaming/advertising it as one 47 minute episode, which is not how Nickelodeon advertised it and not how it premiered and and was originally broadcast on Nick - two episodes airing back to back. What streaming services do is less important than how Nick advertised and broadcast it. And more importantly, how Nick is listing the subsequent episodes, their own TV schedule says the next show, "Day 33" is episode 5. Are you suggesting we completely ignore how Nickelodeon lists the episode numbers for a show they are producing and broadcasting, and just completely rely on how it's streamed, and how they list the episode numbers? Clearly, there is a contradiction here between the two. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Futon Critic table shows an episode with two production codes aired on the 13th on the 7PM time slot. Viewing data was captured for a single episode. Amazon/iTunes sell what was aired, if Nick had sold them 2 episodes, both streaming services would have sold them as two episodes which they didn't, they sell what is provided to them by Nickelodeon. How they advertised the airing is overridden with what they actually did broadcast, a single long episode which the article currently accurately reflects. We can ignore that Nick chooses to consider them two episodes now in their listings as that isn't how they actually originally broadcast it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Policy states that we must represent all significant viewpoints, which is determined by a viewpoint's prevalence in reliably published sources. Policy states content must be verifiable and is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs of editors. Articles must present what the sources say. Policy states we don't give undue weight to one particular viewpoint over another. Previously published information from multiple reliable sources verifies that two episodes were broadcast by Nickelodeon on Nov 13, 2020, and therefore is a prevalent and prominent viewpoint. There is no policy that says we must give preference to a paid streaming service, and ignore or override what is published and verified by reliable sources about the same subject.

Sources

Additionally, MOS:TV advises that Home media and streaming services be in it's own subsection and should be used to detail their information there (paid streaming services presented the premier as a single episode titled "Countdown" / "Day1"). MOS:TV advises that secondary sources are preferred for episode numbers. There are two primary sources from Nickelodeon and Imagine Entertainment that make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts - two episodes of The Astronauts premiere back-to-back on Friday, Nov. 13. Specific facts may be taken from primary sources, although secondary sources that present the same material are preferred (there are multiple secondary sources that present the same material). "Countdown" is ep. 1 and "Day 1" is ep.2 which premiered back-to-back on 13 Nov 2020. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nickelodeon released what they original aired through iTunes and Amazon. Nickelodeon didn't make a different version beyond not including ads. That version can be examined and verified. When a primary source of what happened directly contradicts what was planned, with no interpretation needed to make that determination, the primary source is authoritative for its own content. Nickelodeon, through reliable sources you listed above, said they planned to release two episodes back to back – they didn't actually do that. The two production codes listed in Futon just shows that two production codes were used to make the episode. Futon still shows a single episode aired in their listing. Zap2it shows it both ways in their listing. Other references used and listed above are reliably reporting what was planned, not what was done. Viewing data reference in article did show what was done and it also shows one episode. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amazon and iTunes did release what Nickelodeon originally aired. That is not the issue. The issue is the list of episode numbers. Amazon and iTunes say Countdown and Day 1 are episode one. Nickelodeon says Countdown is ep 1 and Day 1 is ep 2, and they are correct. And like you said, the primary source is authoritative for its own content, it can be watched, examined and verified, and upon examination by watching the show, it clearly verifies that it is two episodes. It's also verified by sources to be two episodes, it's verified by episode production numbers to be two episodes, and it's verified by subsequent episode numbers as well. The viewing data reference doesn't list the episode number for the show, or any other show on that list, it shows the viewing data for a designated time slot (hour-long premiere). Like I said, there is no policy that says we must give preference to a paid streaming service episode numbers, and just completely ignore what is published and verified by reliable sources about the same subject, especially when those sources are the prevailing viewpoint. And like you said, the primary source is authoritative for its own content, and it verifies two episodes. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, Amazon and iTunes are not selling what Nickelodeon originally aired, they are selling what Nickelodeon has provided to them and is telling them to sell. In this case, a single 47-minute episode. If it were two separate episodes, Amazon and iTunes would be selling two separate episodes, but they're not. There are cases where a series premiere, or even a season premiere, is two episodes aired back-to-back. That is not the case here. Amaury • 09:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What Nickelodeon provided to them is the episode they originally aired minus commercials - I think we have an agreement on that. That means it is a reliable primary source. This is key to why we look to the selling sites as a record of what happened. Now we are at the point of viewing that and disagree on whether or not that is one or two episodes provided. To me it is obviously one episode after I bought it (single episode price too) and viewed it. Given that it is one episode it is listed in this article as one episode. That may not match the way other episode list sites decide to count the episode but we are not obliged to follow what they do. Amazon/iTunes just keep a counter. Wikipedia episode lists do that too. Other sites count number of production codes. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So basically your argument in a nutshell, is that the list of episode numbers should be sourced to selling sites, rather than Nickelodeon, the production company, and the prevailing viewpoint on the subject in multiple reliable sources. Yes, we disagree on that. And yes, we also disagree on viewing it, because I have watched it as well, and to me it is obviously two episodes aired back to back, (you can clearly see where episode 1 ends and episode 2 begins) - This argument is supported by reliable sources by those who watched it too and then wrote reviews. Subsequent episodes that have aired on Nickelodeon (3, 4 and 5), that are reliably sourced, also support my argument. And the reason I started this RfC is because there was an obvious disagreement on how to list the episode numbers, and WP:CONSENSUS is policy. It also appears this could be a recurring issue as two other editors who agree that they are listed wrong, changed it to the correct episode numbers and were promptly reverted - diff 1 and diff 2. I do thank you though for having a civil and good-faithed discussion with me. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 12:42, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do have to say, this result is highly disappointing as I saw the airing as well, but original research doesn't work for Wikipedia. Despite the clear evidence that these are two separate episodes, as shown by production codes and reruns, the decision was made on the unverifiable idea that they're one episode because it is unverifiable that they aired as one episode therefore they aired as one episode. I know, doesn't make sense to me either. 72.85.48.246 (talk) 17:34, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's time to WP:DROPTHESTICK already. Amazon and iTunes are official outlets for networks like Nickelodeon. They sell episodes how networks tell them to and have no choice in the matter. Either understand this or don't. We are done here. Amaury • 17:21, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is an RfC, the target of the discussion comments is other people who may wish to comment on this issue and to give a convincing argument to the closer. We have gone well past the point of changing each others minds now, both sides are certain they are right. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Geraldo Perez: Personally, it's not an RFC that should have ever been started. It's a silly thing to start an RFC over. Amaury • 16:58, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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