Talk:The Aeronauts (film)

Amelia Wren

The fictional character played by Felicity Jones is called Amelia Wren.

Wren as in the small bird, not as in Rennes a city in France.

Reliable sources such as BBC and Variety have used this spelling. Also sources such as the promotional website. Please change the name back to Wren if anyone changes it again without discussing it here first. -- 109.79.182.66 (talk) 13:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I disagree of course which is why I made the edit. There are other reliable sources which agree with me. I made the edit because I saw the film and in the flashback in which her husband dies the balloon is labelled Rennes. I am quite happy for this to stay here until you are happy that I am right or otherwise. I should have said of course, to support my case that Pierre Rennes, Amelia's husband was French. Wren is an unusual surname in France. Confusingly IMDb even manages to give us Amelia Wren for our lady protagonist and Pierre Rennes for her husband. Clearly some confusion here but the name on the balloon in the film is the proof you need I think. So perhaps we will have to wait for its release. Tina Cordon (talk) 16:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The references from BBC and Variety already in the article say Wren. The promotional website as I linked above says Wren, that seems pretty solid to me. Please avoid original research, please show the other sources you mention, and show that they are more correct than the promotional website or other sources. Until then we revert back to WP:STATUSQUO. I'd be more concerned except it is a fictional composite character and Felicity Jones is awesome anyway, so people will just think of her.

If a change is necessary please make sure to change all instances in one edit, there have been several failed attempts already, in both directions. I stepped in because I wanted to fix the inconsistency and Wren seemed to be what the reliable sources were indicating. -- 109.77.232.82 (talk) 18:07, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Film posters for The Aeronauts are available, I don't see any indication of her name being on the balloon. -- 109.77.232.82 (talk) 18:09, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

These are various sources already included in the article:

• BBC - Wren [1]
• Variety - Wren [2]
• The Hollywood Reporter - Wren [3]
• Screen International - Wren [4]
• The Guardian - Wren [5]
• IndieWire - Wren [6]

... all of which say her name is Amelia Wren. -- 109.77.232.82 (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I also spotted the flashback alluded to above, also thought that Pierre Rennes was french and spelt his and Amelia's name accordingly. I agree that most of the sources use "Wren" but I think that could be just fake news spread by everyone copying some original trusted source. But see

• inews - [7]
• Esquire - [8]
• Independent - [9]
• Little White Lies - [10]
• BT - [11]
• Screen Daily - [12]

All of which use Rennes. Touché!

The only way to nail this is watch the film again and pay attention to the credits! Its a good film (IMHO) if anyone wants to take it on. Mountainwalker (talk) 15:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Lets just wait until us Americans see the film. Who ever can prove in the end credits of the film which last name is correct, than this discussion will close. For now, lets not continue an edit war, constantly changing the last name on the page. Deal? Cardei012597 (talk) 18:31, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, I'm not going to thrash this any more. Didn't realise that it wasn't released in the US yet. Cheers. Mountainwalker (talk) 18:43, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Checking the film credits would be ideal, it will be on Amazon soon enough and then we will have a definitive source. Variety and Hollywood Reporter are film trade publications, I would be very surprised if they got it wrong but stranger things have happened. (We both pointed to the site ScreenDaily.com which seems to have used both names, doesn't inspire confidence in their fact checking does it.) There are plenty of films that have made changes between script and screen and resulted in inconsistencies, maybe this is another one of those. If the article stays consistent I'm happy to go along with the local consensus. -- 109.77.255.9 (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

If outside editors come, I can defer them to our discussion: to wait until December 20, its Amazon Prime release date, to know for sure which last name is correct. Cardei012597 (talk) 21:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Has something changed? Do we have reliable conclusive sources now? This discussion had not been updated or concluded but somehow the article was changed and not reverted. -- 109.76.197.95 (talk) 20:34, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Far too many editors have made that change. Is it possible for you to request a protection tag for the page? Or do we have to revert the same 5 editors per day who make this same edit? Cardei012597 (talk) 21:14, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. I don't want to put unfair burden on User:Cardei012597 who is doing a good job maintaining the article. I thought maybe I'd missed some new facts, and also I thought reverting edits was very easy for registered users. Reverts happen so often that I frequently have to explain repeatedly when I am following the rules that the registered editors don't seem to be familiar with or haven't properly read the differences between edits and just revert me because I choose to be Anon. So it also surprises me when things that should be reverted are not reverted. I prefer to remain an anonymous editor so long as Wikipedia does not require registration (WP:WNCAA). We could ask for the page to be locked, it is not particularly difficult when you know how but I prefer not to if I can avoid it. Locking the page would lock me out too so I'm not pushing for it (although I've no problem with flagged edits that require confirmation). If you think it is necessary and I will support you or go through the process myself if I have time. Ultimately I thought by now, after the US release we would have all the necessary facts. -- 109.76.197.95 (talk) 02:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Its just annoying to keep returning to this page ever couple of hours to revert the same edits. Cardei012597 (talk) 02:43, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I can appreciate the frustration of having to undo the change, and even imdb clearly says Amelia Wren. The problem is, in the movie is CLEARLY is spelled Rennes. Maybe it would be worthwhile to include a note on the article acknowledging the discrepancy? I made these changes myself assuming it was a simple typo and not part of an ongoing struggle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.46.48.88 (talk) 01:19, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, if you can, we at Wikipedia would like to see a recent post-film release news source that says this. It may be on the credits, but we need physical proof of this fact. Cardei012597 (talk) 02:52, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Did any of you actually SEE the film? There is a scene where Amelia visits her husband's grave and the headstone CLEARLY says, "Rennes". Just because there is a multitude of unobservant writers does NOT change what the camera shows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:C080:2280:F84A:F022:5B9D:1840 (talk) 20:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Why do you believe IMDb is a reliable source? It is extremely unreliable. Why can't you fond a news source to prove your claims? Hollywood Reporter, Variety, a real news source, NOT what random people edit on IMDb. I can easily randomly edit IMDb. Why do you trust IMDb? Cardei012597 (talk) 20:54, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I actually saw the movie. In the graveyard scene, Amelia visits Pierre's grave which bears the headstone labelled, "Rennes". In addition to this should-be definitive source, that is what the film shows, are shots showing the handbill for the Rennes-Glaisher flight with her name prominently shown as "Rennes". Re IMDb's accuracy, I see that they have mistakenly listed Felicity Jones as playing "Wren" regardless of what the film actually shows, but they still show Vincent Perez as playing "Rennes". At least they're partly correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:C080:2280:F84A:F022:5B9D:1840 (talk) 21:29, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I know, I saw the film too, BUT we can NOT just rely on what we saw in the film. We NEED a post-film news source that states this change. We need this because there has been dozens pre-release articles that listed BOTH last names Wren and Rennes. The only confirmation we have on the official name is "its listed on the credits", that isn't reported on by a news source. Do you understand what I am saying? We shouldn't change the last name until a RELIABLE news source states this fact post-film release. If you can find this news source online, a Google search, and present it as evidence of the credits list, THEN we change the name. Can we do this? Cardei012597 (talk) 21:35, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

At 45'45" of the film, Amelia is shown looking at a handbill that shows "The aeronaut and his bride, Pierre and Amelia Rennes, 14th September 1856", and at 1*01'18", we see Amelia at her husband's graveside and "In loving memory Pierre Rennes". The the credits show Felicity Jones as "Amelia Wren". Go figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:C080:2280:390B:DEB0:5005:5F23 (talk) 03:45, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

If a recent post-film news source can't be found, can we just keep the last name consistent as Wren. Edit warring should never take place, as some editors have been changing the last name often. I hope we can agree on this. Cardei012597 (talk) 04:06, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

IMDB sources most things from press releases but it allows user edits which is why it is often correct but we are not supposed to trust it.

I think according to Wikipedia precedent we are supposed to go with the credited name, but there are some exceptions (see the ongoing saga about the Wachowskis) but feel free to check with WT:MOSFILM for discussion and clarification. As a compromise and to discourage edit warring, we might add footnotes {{tl:efn}} indicating/explaining that although the name Rennes is shown on screen the characters are credited as "Wren". (I wonder if the writers purposely used a different spelling as her "stage name" or if it was all a mistake, but I doubt we will find out for sure.) -- 109.76.155.125 (talk) 12:20, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Rennes seems to be Amelia's dead husband's last name. Wren is probably her maiden name. I believe this is the issue that confuses these editors, as both last names for Amelia are used in the film and both are technically true. Thoughts? Cardei012597 (talk) 17:50, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter as the whole thing is fake history.Arglebargle79 (talk) 15:12, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

This isn't about the history, its about the inconsistent last name of a fictional character. My theory is that Rennes was the name Amelia married into (Pierre's last name), while Wren is her maiden name (her childhood family name). Cardei012597 (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, two of the bills shown at 45 min clearly say "Mr P. Rennes / Miss A. Wren." Drmab (talk) 02:42, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I know, the note is settle this dispute on this talk page. Reread through this and you'll know that many editors have edit warred over this topic. The note is for the editors who do not know about the film or its lead character's name. Please, understand, this note is necessary for the many editors who are unsure of what name is in the film. Cardei012597 (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I have modified the note because the scene part of it is based on clearly shows the two names. Drmab (talk) 02:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, let's not have an edit war. But all through the movie she is refered to as Miss, showing that she had reverted to her maiden name, which is shown to be Wren. Drmab (talk) 02:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Fine, I repaired your change. I am just trying to appease every editor with this unusual last name choice. Cardei012597 (talk) 02:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The choice of last name can not maintain a consensus, so to end this long edit war, Amelia's last name will be removed from this page. The last names will only be on the required note. Cardei012597 (talk) 05:39, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that decision is the best way to do things (but I'm not going to go trying to dig up whatever Wikipedia guidelines are applicable but) more importantly as the person most active in maintaining this I think it is appropriate to let Cardei012597 decide.

To make maintenance easier, if you want to request the article be locked or require flagged edits, I would support that too (even though it would potentially prevent me from editing the page). -- 109.76.201.43 (talk) 15:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I am just tired of constantly trying to explain to every editor who shows up that the issues with the last name is complicated. Like, literally every day someone changes the last name. Removing the last name was just my attempt to stop this long edit war. I don't think a lock or require flagged edits will be a long lasting solution to the problem. Once its lifted after a certain amount of time later, the same editors will return to continue the edit war. Cardei012597 (talk) 20:49, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Just a question though, shouldn't way also add that the name Wren appears on handbills? Because the note makes it sound like that name only occurs in the credits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmab (talk • contribs) 13:49, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I only removed Wren from the page, except in the tag, to end the long standing edit war. You must not be aware of the time when several editors constantly clashed on the last name. I came to the conclusion recently that both last names are technically correct, Reenes was the last name Amelia wed into when she married Pierre, Wren is Amelia's maiden name she reverted to in order to seperate herself from Pierre, as she grieves over his death throughout the film. The editors who started this edit war could not settle on a consensus or agree on which name, so to end the edit war, the last name needed to be removed. Please read this, along with the rest of the discussion. Cardei012597 (talk) 18:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware, and I've read all the discussion. But I don't see how adding, in the footnote, that Wren also appears in the movie goes against the concensus. As it stands, the note gives the impression that only the name "Rennes" is used, which is factually wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmab (talk • contribs) 23:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Wren and Rennes are used. Should I tweak the note to state this more clearly, Cardei012597 (talk) 23:35, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Based on precedence (of Wikipedia film articles) I think the credited name (Wren) is what we should be using, and although I disagree with your approach (deleting both names) but I'm willing to defer to you because of your fine work actively maintaining this article.

I think Drmab is incorrect to suggest the name shown onscreen takes precedence over the name given in the credits, but by all means take it to WT:FILM for clarification and consensus. -- 109.78.212.25 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

My approach is just to end the edit war, thats all. Cardei012597 (talk) 00:08, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Cardei, and I'm sorry if I came of as pushy. 109.78.212.25, I never said the name shown onscreen takes precedence over the name given in the credits, I only said that both were shown on screen. Drmab (talk) 00:40, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Its ok, I just hope the refined note is more clear and concise to all editors. Cardei012597 (talk) 00:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Hey, Cardei012597, it is surprising that editors would argue that the full final onscreen credits of the film itself are not the authoritative source. Given what you’ve been through (having now read this talk history), I agree with your rollback of my wording suggesting that Wren is simply an anglicized homonym of Rennes (no source, so should not have said it) and support your use of the note to shed light on the issue in the article itself. Nice work. Jmg38 (talk) 05:47, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I would argue that the full final onscreen credits of the film itself are the authoritative source (and I did gently suggest taking that question to WT:FILM for clarification) but I defer to Cardei012597. I think it fairer to give discretion to those who show up and put in the work. -- 109.76.205.105 (talk) 21:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. There have been efforts to include either one of Amelia's last names, but consensus would never be achieved or even respected, so thats why Wren and Rennes must only be mentioned in the note to end the long lasting edit war. Cardei012597 (talk) 05:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Like I said, the edit was done to end the edit war. Cardei012597 (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Hypoxia, not "apoxia"

About hypoxia and its medical and behavioral signs and symptoms: I am a long-time pilot, sailplane and power, and have many hours in the Flight Level realm. I also have numerous sessions in USAF altitude chambers wherein flight crew are trained to recognise and "cope" with high altitude/low pressure exposure. I am therefore quite familiar with hypoxia in flight.

The Glaisher character shows several key signs and symptoms of hypoxic cognitive impairment: judgment, alertness, coordination, drowsiness, and euphoria. Glaisher's clearly headed for death or long-term disability, and it's not from the cold. (Hypothermia aggravates hypoxia). I refer to the Aeronautical Information Manual, AIM 8-1-2 Effects of Altitude, a. Hypoxia, sections 1, 2, 4, and 5. <ref>https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/aim.pdf<ref>

Glaisher would not "go mad" because of cold, he would be cognitively impaired by the low oxygen pressure of high altitude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:C080:2280:F84A:F022:5B9D:1840 (talk) 21:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Fine, the hypoxia can stay. Cardei012597 (talk) 21:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I also noticed the use of the word anoxia and found it a strange choice, but then I looked up the term anoxia and it appeared to be technically correct, as anoxia is a result of hypoxia and left it alone.

Claiming that his own experience somehow matters is a failure to understand the Wikipedia policies against original research.

The anonymous ipv6 was wrong to edit war, and utterly failed to follow WP:3RR, the three revert rule. Again I must commiserate with Cardei012597 having to deal with so much hassle to maintain this article.

Finally it isn't even important why James falls unconscious (and the previous sentence already said James was hypoxic) only that he does and on the basis of brevity and WP:FILMPLOT I'm going to shorten the sentence and remove this pedantic detail. -- 109.76.155.125 (talk) 12:10, 21 December 2019 (UTC)