Talk:Tetrakis(3,5-bis(trifluoromethyl)phenyl)borate

Thanks, good article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Testem (talk • contribs)

J(Argon)

@EdChem: Sorry to rain on your parade but I just looked at this following its DYK appearance and consider that there is too much unexplained jargon for a general encyclopedia. For example, consider the headline BARF abbreviation. I never studied organic chemistry and so it took me some minutes to guess that the "Ar" component in this was not argon but was aryl – an abbreviation which I was quite unfamiliar with. Most readers won't get that far. For more guidance, please see MOS:INTRO.

Other issues: Who is Kobayashi? What is Gibbs energy? What's with the brackets in the name? Tetrahedral in shape? Is it a crystal, liquid or what? What does it actually look like?

Andrew D. (talk) 13:37, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Andrew, I'm not precious about my contributions and welcome constructive feedback, so thanks. Let me take those points in order:

• Ar = aryl rather than argon – fair point, I can add an explanation
• Kobayashi – he doesn't have a wiki article (or didn't when I last checked) but I'll look. To explain, he is the academic who supervised the work to prepare BARF for the first time, which is why he is last author on the reference. I'll try to make that clearer.
• Gibbs energy in the migratory insertion – I wondered about including the catalytic cycle, which on reflection I should have.
• Brackets – the tradition in chemistry is not to nest parentheses but rather to use parentheses for inner then square brackets then braces, so we get xxxx{xxx[xxx(xxx)xxx]xxx}xxx and you can see the pairing. The page name does not include the square brackets due to a limitation of the wiki software. Not sure how / whether to explain that, that hat note is to avoid surprise when clicking a link that has square brackets and ending at a page that doesn't.
• Shape – the geometry about the boron atom is tetrahedral. I don't have a crystal structure diagram to include.
• what's it like? – it is an ion, so it can be in an aqueous solution in which case there will be a cation also, sodium in the case of the sodium salt and the oxonium etherate in the case of Brookhart's acid. The sodium salt is known as a solid.

I'll ping you for comments and further suggestions when I've made some changes. Regards, EdChem (talk) 13:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson: What do you think now? EdChem (talk) 15:32, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

• It's still quite heavy going but better, thanks. I was puzzling over the phrase "ethereal solution" but some googling indicates that this means a solution of something in ether. That makes sense in context but I'm not used to seeing "ethereal" used in this way. The only other issue I had is the practical use of this stuff. I get the impression that it is used to catalyze the production of plastics, right? If so, the lead should say something of this please, so that the casual reader gets a feel for the point of it all. Andrew D. (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks, I'm glad it is an improvement. Regarding the use in the catalytic case, it is chosen because the catalyst (which is the palladium bit) needs to have space around it to work but also have +ve charge, so an anion has to be there (to balance the charge) and the anion needs to not move into the space the catalyst needs to work. Imagine the catalyst as like a person with two arms. In its left hand is the growing polymer. It uses its right to pick up an alkene, then transfers it into the left hand, inserting it between the hand and the existing polymer chain. The empty right hand then picks up a CO, and then inserts it into the growing chain, again leaving the right hand empty. And so on. Many anions would bind to the right hand and stop the cycle of growth, so a non-coordinating ion is needed to do the helpful thing and hang around to balance charge but not block the catalytic site. Does this make sense? In any event, I've added something to the lede. EdChem (talk) 16:20, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

• I see – like an editor who facilitates at DYK but doesn't get too involved, eh? It's a deep and interesting topic this. Thanks for the good work. Andrew D. (talk) 17:02, 11 July 2016 (UTC)