Talk:Tenants and Owners Development Corporation

This is a biased article - and not worth keeping.

For instance "The organization has used these resources to lobby against housing construction" is not supported by the citation he gives. Also: "Elberling lives rent-free in one of TODCO's affordable housing units" should mention that he's doing it as a building manager. (Which is in the citation listed). Personally, I'd suggest just getting rid of this article. Dancingsnails (talk) 18:12, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Disagree. This organization is a major player in the politics in one of the world's most important urban economies.

We should fix, and do so by finding well-sourced coverage from a variety of sources. Ctbeiser (talk) 05:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Add early history content

Hello,

My name is Andres, I work for TODCO and would like to help editors on Wikipedia in making this article more robust. For the near future, I will be making requests on this Talk page with suggestions for content to be added. Feel free to tag me here if you want to chat.

For my first suggestion, I propose adding some early history of TODCO to the very top of the History section. Please consider the following:

TODCO was founded in 1971 as a coalition of South of Market tenants and building owners. It was formed in response to redevelopment of the Yerba Buena corridor.

John Elberling took over TODCO in 1978, when it had started construction on the first of its senior housing buildings. Elberling lives rent-free in one of TODCO's affordable housing units.

After joining TODCO, Elberling worked on the 1980s Prop. M campaign that limited office development.

References

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Encoded  Talk 💬 07:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

More history content

Hello,

This is TODCO employee Andres again. Thanks to Encoded for the updates above. Here are a few more possible updates to History section for editors to consider:

• After the sentence, "In the 1980s and 1990s, TODCO built a set of low-income apartment buildings, concentrated on Sixth Street", consider adding, "Following this, TODCO redeveloped single-room-occupancy hotels on the street. In 1998, it completed a 24 unit development called The Leland Apartments for people with disabilities."
• In the sentence that reads, "Since the early 2000s, the organization has not built more housing, but remains active in local politics", consider changing "local politics" to "advocacy". I think this is a better description of what TODCO does and is also supported by this San Francisco Chronicle source already in the article.
• In the sentence, "The organization has used these resources to lobby against housing construction, as well as fund various other propositions", consider adding the phrase "market-rate" so that it reads: "The organization has used these resources to lobby against market-rate housing construction, as well as fund various other propositions." This is also supported by the above source and adds more specificity to the sentence.
• After the sentence that reads, "The organization has been criticized for using the windfalls of its operation on political advocacy rather than on its properties and resident services", consider adding, "According to author Chester Hartman, TODCO offers social services for its residents including a community clinic, case management and shopping transportation." for additional information of TODCO's functions.

References

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 22:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Encoded  Talk 💬 21:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Encoded! TODCOAM (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Business Practice and Complaints section

Hello editors,

I would like to discuss a recent addition to this article, which is the new Business Practice and Complaints section. It is a three-paragraph section that I think editors will find to be redundant, as some of the content is already discussed within the article; not written in encyclopedic tone; and potentially gives too much weight to one specific source.

I would like to suggest that it be removed, rewritten, and re-incorporated into the current History section.

Please see this list for a more detailed proposal:

1: The first paragraph of "Business Practice and Complaints" should be added to the History section.

2: The second paragraph should be rewritten to be more neutral with due weight, and reincorporated into the History section. Much of the information in this paragraph is synthesized and draws conclusions. Please see this proposal:

The San Francisco Standard published an article where tenants living in buildings operated by TODCO complained of conditions in the units. The Standard article wrote that TODCO used funds for political causes. The article reported that annual revenue for the organization's main nonprofit entity had doubled over the last decade while the amount of revenue spent on residents was reduced. The organization cited inflation for the reduction in maintenance funding, citing wages as an example. TODCO tripled the amount spent on employee salaries, which TODCO attributed to adding administrative and program staffing because it was "understaffed".

3: The third paragraph is redundant, as the Wikipedia article already discusses this criticism of TODCO in the fifth paragraph of the History section. The History section covers the same points as this new paragraph does. Because of that, I believe this paragraph could be removed in its entirety.

Thank you to editors for their review. Perhaps Encoded this new request may interest you? TODCOAM (talk) 20:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

(Comment) @TODCOAM, Could you give me a version of proposal 2 with the citations? ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 04:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi AlphaBetaGamma!

Of course, here you go:

The San Francisco Standard published an article where tenants living in buildings operated by TODCO complained of conditions in the units. The Standard article wrote that TODCO used funds for political causes. The article reported that annual revenue for the organization's main nonprofit entity had doubled over the last decade while the amount of revenue spent on residents was reduced. The organization cited inflation for the reduction in maintenance funding, citing wages as an example. TODCO tripled the amount spent on employee salaries, which TODCO attributed to adding administrative and program staffing because it was "understaffed".

Please let me know if I can assist in any other ways. Eagerly awaiting your review TODCOAM (talk) 22:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: Proposal 2 implemented, 1st paragraph removed due to lack of references. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Thanks AlphaBetaGamma! What are your thoughts on the third bullet point? I believe this is redundant and falls under the redundancy rules: "Also, redundancy within an article should be kept to a minimum (except in the lead, which is meant to be a summary of the entire article, and so is intentionally duplicative)."

Specifically, the idea presented in the second sentence of this paragraph that TODCO is trying to "suppress new housing development" is better covered in Controversies with the information on TODCO's opposition of the construction of as apartment complex on a Nordstrom valet parking lot. The information on Dean Preston mentioned in the last sentence of this paragraph is covered already in Controversies.

Additionally, the first sentence is not actually supported by the source that is referenced, as that source does not mention anything about or related to "campaign funding and endorsement".

Finally, a section titled "Business practice and complaints" in an article that also contains a "Controversies" section does not seem very neutral.

Eagerly awaiting your thoughts. TODCOAM (talk) 21:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Give me a bit of time please, I recently answered over 80 edit requests in 3 days (I was even awarded!) and I'm burned out. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done I just took a look and yes that seems like a NPOV issue. Section removed. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 11:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks AlphaBetaGamma TODCOAM (talk) 18:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Functions of TODCO

Hi Wikipedia, it's Andres from TODCO. I would like to make suggestions for the very end of the History section. The following content adds some information on the functions of TODCO and its financial information. Please consider the following:

TODCO maintains an advocacy subsidiary. It donates to progressive campaigns related to community development and affordable housing-related initiatives. Since 2016, one focus has been to limit office space and market rate housing in favor of housing for lower and middle class.

In the 2018 fiscal year, it generated nearly $5 million in revenue. As of 2019, TODCO oversaw eight affordable housing buildings comprising about 1,000 units. In 2021, this included three residential hotels on Sixth Street and five senior buildings near Yerba Buena Gardens. The John Stewart Company has a management contract to manage TODCO properties.

References

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 18:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: History sections usually aren't "add everything" areas. Informations like that might be better off in different subsections. I also feel that "In the 2018 fiscal year..." statement isn't really notable unless it was special. (ex. highest, lowest, etc...) It's also worth noting that listing too much on what something does can be seen as promotion by some editors. Although the first paragraph seems to be fine (Assuming good faith for sources since the sources aren't deprecated or are blogs), You don't need to rapid fire citations, and you only need 1 citation at the end of the supported claims. So you just need the SFC citation at the end of each paragraphs. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 07:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you AlphaBetaGamma for the in-depth review. I'd like to work with you to make this request the best it can be for Wikipedia.

• I see what you mean about History not being a catch all section. The problem currently is that there are only two sections: History and Controversies. Putting this information in a different section, per your suggestion, would require making a new section entirely. May I suggest an "Operations" section?

• Regarding the "In the 2018 fiscal year..." statement: I see what you mean here, I will remove it in my next request.

• I am glad to hear you think the first paragraph is good. Regarding the source, it is the San Francisco Chronicle, so it does meet Wikipedia standards. I can add an archive link if you would like to make sure it is always accessible. I can remove the rapid fire citations as well.

Looking forward to your feedback. I can submit a cleaned-up COI request based on your thoughts. TODCOAM (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Try looking at pages of corporates (without any "maintenance tags") on Wikipedia. Maybe you'll find an idea for a new section there? ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

New section: Operations

Based on feedback from AlphaBetaGamma I would like to propose an Operations section to this article. It was suggested that previous content I requested would be better housed in a section other than the History section, but right now an appropriate alternative does not exist. So I have taken the time to draft an Operations section, which seems to be a common section name for the type of information I am proposing.

This includes new information and additionally reorganizes currently existing information in order to make the section robust. If approved, the sentence, "According to author Chester Hartman, TODCO offers social services for its residents including a community clinic, case management and shopping transportation." should be deleted from the History section to reduce redundancy.

Here is that draft:

Operations

John Elberling is the president of TODCO. There are 37 employees, as of 2023. TODCO provides affordable housing, resident services, and community advocacy for the South of Market neighborhood. According to author Chester Hartman, TODCO offers social services for its residents including a community clinic, case management and shopping transportation.

TODCO maintains an advocacy subsidiary. It donates to progressive campaigns related to community development and affordable housing-related initiatives. Since 2016, one focus has been to limit office space and market rate housing in favor of housing for lower and middle class.

As of 2019, TODCO oversaw eight affordable housing buildings comprising about 1,000 units. In 2021, this included three residential hotels on Sixth Street and five senior buildings near Yerba Buena Gardens. The John Stewart Company has a management contract to manage TODCO properties.

References

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 23:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Unable to do edit requests for this month, as I am too busy to work on the backlogs for August due to personal reasons. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 13:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Reviewing, proper response will be made within the next 24 hours. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 04:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:24, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you AlphaBetaGamma for the review and implementation! I wanted to flag two things for you:

1) Looks like you pasted the colons into the article so it is indenting on the main page

2) The following sentence now appears twice and should be deleted from the History section: "According to author Chester Hartman, TODCO offers social services for its residents including a community clinic, case management and shopping transportation."

Thanks! TODCOAM (talk) 18:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Controversies section

Andres here!

I would like editors to consider the Controversies section and the appropriate-ness of a section named this on Wikipedia. From my understanding, pages should stay away from sections named this. "In most cases separate sections devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like should be avoided in an article because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints."

Instead, I think it would work to just incorporate this information into the current History section. Everything appears to be already in chronological order, so just removing the coding for the section name seems like it would work.

Additionally, please consider changing the sentence, "In 2021, TODCO took a leading role in opposing the construction of a 495-unit apartment complex (25% of which would have been affordable housing) on a Nordstrom valet parking lot." to "TODCO spent four years advocating against the construction of a 495-unit apartment complex (25% of which would have been affordable housing) on a Nordstrom valet parking lot." as this would help make the language more neutral.

After that sentence, consider adding the sentence, "In October 2021, the Board of Supervisors voted to delay the development. Elbering called these units gentry housing." (which is supported by the source already there) to add needed context to the previous sentence.

Finally, please consider removing the sentence, "As of 2022, that campaign is implicated in an ethics complaint about whether former Supervisor Jane Kim violated the law by not registering as a lobbyist for work opposing it." because this is not about TODCO itself.

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 20:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: I merged controversies into history as you suggested. Since I don't think your other wording changes improve neutrality, I have not applied them. McYeee (talk) 07:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks McYeee for reviewing this. Do you have any additional thoughts on the three proposed additions? I do think some added context and changed wording would help neutrality. Curious if AlphaBetaGamma has an opinion here as well. Of course, these are just suggestions and if Wikipedia editors don't think they are necessary, I understand. Thanks! TODCOAM (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll elaborate. The phrase "advocating against" is not more neutral. It's just poor writing. I oppose many things and don't see that as a bad thing.

Gentrification sounds like a pejorative here, so it could be worded more neutrally. It's also not sufficient for something to not be "about TODCO itself" it also needs to be not relevant. You haven't argued why that's the case here.

By the way, per WP:ORGNAME you should probably look into changing your username. McYeee (talk) 21:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

+1 this suggestion to change usernames. I've been partly concerned about it, but couldn't find a reason to boldly point that out. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 05:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks McYeee and AlphaBetaGamma My username is actually the name of the company "TODCO" and my initials "AM" to show this is my account! I appreciate all the feedback TODCOAM (talk) 23:49, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I got into the habit of just ignoring the last two letters when they're AM, FM, or XM. That was a mistake on my part here because TODCO is obviously not a radio station. McYeee (talk) 23:58, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Infobox and Intro

Andres here!

For my final request for the time being, I would like to tackle an infobox and introduction.

As you can see, there is no infobox here! Please consider the following infobox:

Tenants and Owners Development Corporation

Formation	1971
Type	Nonprofit
Headquarters	San Francisco, California
Key people	John Elberling (President)

Additionally for the Introduction, please consider removing the following:

John Elberling, the president of TODCO, joined the group in 1978. In 2021, the San Francisco Chronicle wrote that Eberling's "power to shape what does and does not get built in the South of Market has grown in recent years as he has spent freely on propositions, polling, lobbying and lawsuits." Elberling lives rent-free in one of TODCO's affordable housing units, despite the fact that his salary is four times higher than the income he would need to qualify for the building. He also owns a 2,938-square-foot house in Sebastopol, in Sonoma County, California.

This is more about Elberling than it is about TODCO itself and based on what I have read on Wikipedia's rules, means it does not fit here.

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 20:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Weren't you the one who suggested adding "John Elberling took over TODCO in 1978, when it had started construction on the first of its senior housing buildings. Elberling lives rent-free in one of TODCO's affordable housing units."? What changed your mind on whether that content fits here? McYeee (talk) 21:11, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

McYeee Thanks for the reply! Previously I did request that content be added to the History section because I understand the importance of Wikipedia and that it shouldn't be a reflection of TODCO's PR, so I requested it in an effort to reflect what is in reliable sources.

This specific request is for the Introduction and while I understand the importance of this content appearing in the article, I do not think the Introduction is the best place for it. I wanted to show I am not trying to erase this information, just have it housed in the most appropriate spot. To my understanding, the Introduction is meant for information regarding why a topic is notable but this does not contribute to TODCO's notability. Please let me know if you have any other questions! TODCOAM (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I see. In that case, I'll bow out and someone else can review this. McYeee (talk) 21:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Reply 21-NOV-2024

  Edit request implemented  

1. The infobox was added.
2. The information from the lead section, as well as other info concerning Elberling, has been moved to a new "Leadership" section.

Regards,  Spintendo  11:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)