Talk:Tbilisi/Archives/2015/December

Crowding

I attempted to clear a number of crowded items to make the article more readable and was reversed. Some paragraph-sized sections have 2-3 different multimedia on all sides, with text squeezed in between, which does not look right. How essential are these items and why are they thrown together like this.--Damianmx (talk) 11:11, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

Welcome to Wikipedia, Damianmx. I am not necessarily against your edits, just wanted them discussed (you know, if an editor with 6 hr tenure comes and makes large-scale edits, it is sometimes suspicious). Let us wait a couple of days and allow users to discuss.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

My own 2 cents. First, from the demographics you deleted the historical data. I have no opinion on whether they are appropriate there (rather yes than no, but this is debatable), but my problem is that now the section is completely unsourced. May by even if the data does not go back, it might be good to bring the references back. Second, pictures are usually very sensitive, and people often do not like when their photos get removed and replaced. It should be only done if the quality of a new photo is clearly superior. Another issue to take into account is that Georgia currently has no freedom of panorama - all pictures of modern buildings and monuments will eventually be deleted. I did not check the pictures, but if you want to proceed, please mind these things.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

There's only so much space in an article and crowding it out of concern that a photographer will be offended seems like a silly reason. Same for the chart, if its historical data as you say, why can't it just go to History of Tbilisi, instead of being squeezed in an already tight place.--Damianmx (talk) 11:32, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

This is fine, move them to the History of Tbilisi and keep the refs here, we do not want to have unreferenced sections. For the photo, this is a matter of taste. You may think it is silly to have many photo, and other people would say it is silly to remove their photo which was illustrating the article. There is no policy which can be strictly applied at this point, and it is always better to be careful.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:50, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

@Ymblanter:, giving him a full pack of WP:GF as were supposed to, in the few edits he's made so far, he's pushing for several clear agenda-loaded povs, such as posing Georgia as a de facto European nation, even though the concensus on Wikipedia does not follow such a thing. Second, he tried to hide Georgia's abundant historical ties with various Near Eastern nations (deletion of pictures or crucial information). Not though a consensus or sourcing, but clear removing.[1] I think it's important to keep for others in mind while observing the edits. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:13, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not think he is a PoV pusher, just an unexperienced user.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:20, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

LouisAragon, I'm sorry if I somehow hurt your feelings, I removed a number of crowded items, including a church and a classical-era building, so I don't see how I'm picking on or oppressing near eastern cultures. Not to mention, these items are already displayed on the history page, where there is ample space.--Damianmx (talk) 12:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, right. I wonder then why only the picture of Agha Mohammad Khan is removed out of all pictures, while all other pictures on the Tbilisi page are also represented on the History of Tbilisi page (going by your own reasoning) This in line with your previous edits I've linked above, your statement does not really hold much credibility. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what chip you have on your shoulder but it is telling that your very first edit on this website was a complaint against Eurocentrism and you seem to have have been sticking middle eastern this or that at every opportunity. Whether that Khan was Persian or not, he was just one page in Georgia's 2000 year history, so tell me why does he deserve a huge painting in a section that's only several lines long itself? Are there photos of Georgia on Iran/Persia pages?--Damianmx (talk) 12:32, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

Agha Mohammad Khans invasion is of huge significance to Tbilisi's history. Not did it only devastate it completely of which the city didn't recover for decades, it also was the direct reason as for the Russians to annex Georgia, after which it came under Russian rule for some 200 years. It's one of the most noteworthy events, though tragic, in Tbilisi's and Georgian history, with huge century-long consequences. And that's backed up with numerous sources by the most reliable scholars. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Neighboring empires pillaged and massacred Georgia countless times, and each event led to something, should we hang up their paintings too? Mongols were there for hundreds of years, so were the Arabs and the Turks, we'll never see the end of it here, that's why there's a separate page just for history, where that painting already resided.--Damianmx (talk) 12:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

The thing is, Georgia =/= Tbilisi and vice versa. This article is about Tbilisi; a part (capital) of the country Georgia. The fact that Turks/Mongols/X invaded the country of Georgia doesn't hold ground here. Were talking about Tbilisi. If any of those invasions had immense lasting effects as well on Tbilisi and if we had a picture (speculations) there should be a possibility to include them here as well, if the voice of the majority would theoretically want that. Also, I think you see it as some kind of glorification of the victor, which it is absolutely not meant to represent. It depicts the capture of the city this very article is about; an event of huge, I stipulate again, huge significance to the history of this city and on top of that Georgia as a whole, which had lasting events for centuries afterwards on the city and in turn the entire country. As a direct result of that invasion/sack, Georgia became part of Russia for some 180 years. Thus, it has to be kept. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:58, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Krtsanisi by Valerian Sidamon-Eristavi

Mongols and Arabs were indeed in Tbilisi for a long time and massacred countless people, so they are very much part of the storyline. That aside, the Iranian painting itself, which depicts the aftermath of the Battle of Krtsanisi is not contemporary of those events in any case and was created many years after. So what is its value? Why is it that you favor that image and not something painted by a local Georgian author? Because this is not just about illustrating events is it?, its about pinning victory trophies, promoting Persia and its culture with spam-like copy and paste jobs.--Damianmx (talk) 13:16, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

I won't comment on certain points of thought of yours, which clearly present your rather hostile point of view/tunnel vision, but sure I have absolutely no objections against using a picture by a Georgian artist either. I don't think anyone would have. We can replace it with that one you linked here. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

That would be a step in the right direction, I can just place it to the right so it does not mess up the title page. But what about removing all the other extraneous material (Aghmashenebeli avenue classical building, cathedral, chart etc). I fail to see why you keep reversing them, what is your issue with those items?--Damianmx (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

As long as it shows at the section where it's supposed to be, it doesn't matter whether it's on the left or right. Aghmashemebeli I think is one of the most prominent avenues of the city, why should that be removed? Is it not well-known enough? If there are better alternatives for city lay-out pictures (churches, avenues, etc etc) it's no issue changing them ofc.(@Jaqeli:, just pinging Jaqeli here as he's Georgian and lives in Georgia, and would probably have a valuable opinion regarding the lay-out pictures of the city itself) - LouisAragon (talk) 13:39, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

It is a very pretty street, I've been there plenty of times, but there are many pretty streets, we can't include them all. The street has its own page so perhaps it should go there. In the meantime, I will give this painting a try.--Damianmx (talk) 13:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

I've updated the demographics section with a neat photo collage to deal with crowding. Let me know if this works.--Damianmx (talk) 14:50, 7 December 2015 (UTC) <-- CU blocked sock of User:Satt 2

Pls have in mind that Sameba is an unfree building; it is safer to replace it with one of the free ones (e.g. Sioni, Metekhi, or Anchiskhati).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)