Talk:Tbilisi/Archives/2010/June

Name of city

Tbilisi [tbilisi] T as tea, B-bee, I-ill, L-luck, I-ill, S-sea, I-ill. There are two most common lines of formation of the name as a continuation of a famous legend with sulfur geysers and boiled birds. 1. In Georgian “Tbili” means warm, Tbilisi - warm place. Suffix ‘si’ is quite common in Georgian geographical names describing belonging to the particular place. Names of many villages and regions follow this pattern. For example Kutaisi, Dmanisi, Bolnisi, Tsavkisi, Tadzrisi, etc. This is similar to suffices like ‘eti’, ‘eni’, ‘ani’, ‘ati’ etc. So name Tbilisi means ‘warm place’ of ‘of a warn place’. 2. Another theory/legend, which I personally believe to be closer to reality, suggests that name comes from two words ‘tbili’ (warm) and ‘lisi’ (water). ‘Lisi’ means water in old Georgian and nowadays this word is not used in this context. Modern Georgian uses ‘tskali’ for water. Word ‘lisi’, however, is not uncommon today, as a famous lake in Tbilisi is called ‘Lisi’, exactly serving its “aquatic” purpose. So, ‘warm water’ (tbili+lisi) formed Tbilisi.

Hopefully sometime we will know the true story of this mane or some ancient living expert from neighboring country will persuade us that everything Georgian [and non Georgian] was created by them.

As for the name ‘Tiflis’… ‘tbili’ always meant warm in Georgian and city was always named Tbilisi. Tiflis is just distorted version of Tbilisi which was used in times of Russian empire and is sill used by some world countries in our times. All in all Tiflis, Tifflis, Tiblisi are all mistakes.85.132.14.38 09:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC) July 2007

Turkish-oriented writings (in the English language, anyway) write the name of the city as "Tiflis". Is this just Turkish usage, or do other languages use this alternate spelling? Ellsworth 22:52, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Actually this is the real name of the city. It has never been called Tbilisi. Even armenians who formed the majority of the city before the Bolshevik takeover, used to call and still do call the city Tiflis. After 1921 it was renamed Tbilisi to justify the inclusion of Tbilisi into Georgian SSR. Prior to Russian dominance in the city since 1800s during which the city was mostly populated by Armenians and Turks the city belonged to Persian EMpire and its name Tiflis had the similar meaning and origin as Tebriz in Iran. Therefore Tiflis is modified Tebriz. Tbilisi is an artificial and made up name which means warm in Georgian. As if king Gorgasali was a balneologist and discovered thermal sources in the city and called them Warm-Tbilisi. This hypothesis is very inconsistent and non-convincing. Very naive. Armenian_nj I signed under my words and it was not my fault that it did not appear. Yo have no business to delete my words. Whatever I wrote here is not a POW. There are hundred of internet materials proving that Tiflis consisted mostly of Armenians until 1930. I will find also the links towards to version that Tiflis is the modified version of Tebrize. If you disagree then insist on your points of view but do not dare delete my postings. ANd where is the nationalism or chauvinism in my posting. So what, Azeris were the majority of Erivan before Russian takeover in 1828. Armenians were the majority o Tiflis and it is stated in beloved by you Georgians Pushkin's Puteshestvie v Arzrum. All the mayors of Tiflis were Armenian until Noy Jordania"s menshevik takeover and German occupation of Tiflis. Tell me your version, if you delete means you are just angry. It is a sign of weakness. Armenian_nj

The above paragraph was inserted unsigned by ArmenianNY on 16 September 2006, but placed above Ellsworth's signature from 2004, as explained by Kober below. I have moved the original signature back to Ellsworth's contribution. ColinFine 10:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Kober removed the paragraph above today (and marked the change as 'minor'). I have reinstated it, as this is not the best way to conduct arguments on a talk page. Kober: it appears you disagree with what Ellsworth says. Please argue the case rather than just deleting what he says. (I don't have knowledge or opinion on the issue: I just think that deleting a comment from a talk page is not appropriate. ColinFine 23:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I had removed it because it looked very much like vandalism. It was written today by a POV-pusher User:ArmenianNY who posted his comment under the name of another Wikipedian, namely User:Ellsworth and inserted a false date [1]. The comment itself is a blatant POV and full of nationalistic fantasies. It doesn't even deserve to be commented upon. Thanks, Kober 04:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the paragraph is highly POV, and does read like an unsupported nationalistic diatribe. I also agree that it had been inserted above another user's signature, and I have corrected that. But I still believe that on a Talk page the way to deal with such things is by challenging them, not by removing them. ColinFine 10:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't deny that at one point Armenians constituted the majority in the city in the 19th-20th centuries, but Tbilisi has always been a historic Georgian capital with great ethnic diversity. Your theory of the etomology of Tbilisi's name is very inconsistent, and your comment that the "inclusion of Tiflis" within Georgia needed justification is ridiculous. The 11th-century Georgian king David IV founded Gori and settled there Armenian merchants, but this doesn't mean that Gori was not a city of Georgia with its purely Georgian name, meaning 'a hill'. --Kober 04:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, but as a city as a big industrial city or a governmental residence, Tbilisi has never been a Georgian capital until the Soviet times. May be there was a settlement, may be a Georgian village or whatsoever named Tbilisi since Gorgasali times. As a big city Tiflis has always been under Russian rule. It has always been called Tiflis even prior to Russian takeover by Georgievsky Treaty, when it was a part of Persian Empire ruled by Azeri speaking Safavid and Qajar dinasties. When Tiflis became a part of Russian Empire, it never became a Georgian capital, since there was no political entitiy named Georgia. There did exist Tiflis Gubernia. As an administrative center of Tiflis Gubernia and a residence of vice-roy Tiflis was an all armenian populated city, the center of Armenian business, trade and merchants. Moreover, Tiflis was the cultural capital of Eastern or Russian Armenians. I am more than sure that Georgians cinstituted the majority of Tiflis Gubernia, but not within the city, in the villages and other settlements of historical kingdom of Qartly, partly Kakhetia etc although there was no and still there is a single place southern of Tbilisi that is Georgian populated: historically Borchaly was Azeri and Armenian populated, places like Marneuli or Dmanisi or Bolnisi can be called Georgian only conditionally. Javakheti and Ajara are even out of question.When Russian Empire collapsed whatever was Tiflis gubernia became a part of menshevik Georgian Republic. And the city could not stay as an Armenian enclave withing independent Georgia, therefore it became the capital of Georgia. Let's not forget that Mtskheta and Kutaisi can be claimed as Georgian historical capitals more than Tbilisi.The independence of the Republic of Armenia was declared by Armenian National Council in Tiflis, not in Yerevan since Armenians were not able to believe that the city where they were absolute majority, and the mayor Aleksandr Khatisyan was Armenian as well, could become a center of Georgian statehood. Even after the establishment of Georgian SSR Armenians were still the majority of the city. There were ethnic clashes over where to built the politechnical university in Tbilisi in early 20s: in Armenian Havlabar or in Georgian Vera even if Tbilisi was the capital of Georgian SSR and not Armenian SSR. You can call Tbilisi multi ethnic you can call Tbilisi multi cultural etc, it is up to you, of you are still in a denial of the role of Armenians in Tiflis or if you want to sound politically correct. Whatever is gone is gone and nothing can be returned. But if I were you I wouldn't be so ignorant towards historical and political data available in non Georgian sources.And this would help you not to be so paranoic and judgemental towards others who do not think through your paradigm. Instead of labeling others' postings or deleting them, it would be nice of you not to be so culturally blind. Be aware of your own worldviews, beliefs. If you think that you are nationalistic or chauvinistic then do not go into wikipedia editing pages and judge people since instead of helping people here you can actually make detremential comments.Thats what we all saw in your treating of my posting. Thats the reason of instead of having a good and healthy discussion with me you started nationalistic demagogia here , first by calling me a nationalist, projecting your views and beliefs onto me, and then by deleting my postings. Making a comment about the majority of Tiflis population before the revolution does not make me nationalistic or chauvinistic. Everybody knows that Georgians used to be the majority of population in Abkhazia. But that didn't stop the rest of the world to call the region Abkhazia and finally it did not stop the minority from taking the political and military control of the region. From the moral point of view I can condemn Abkhaz people for establishing the rule of minority and disregarding the rights of Georgian majority in Abkhazia. This does not make me any nationalistic or chauvinistic. This also does not mean that I do not support the rights of Abkhaz people for liberation or national self determination. I am just constating the facts without judgement or passion. Armenian NY

Guy, stop making personal attacks. Calling others culturally blind and ignorant is not civil. If you continue your insults you'll be reported and blocked from editing Wikipedia. I have no time and energy to engage in this useless discussion with you. I'd suggest to look through "Making of the Georgian People" by RG Suny (American-Armenian, btw), an Encyclopaedia of Islam article "Tiflis" by Vladimir Minorsky [2], and a number of Georgia-related articles from the Encyclopaedia Iranica, also works by Cyril Toumanoff, David Marshall Lang, and WED Allen to get more info about the history of Georgia and its capital. As you can see I'm not "so ignorant towards historical and political data available in non Georgian sources" as you speculate in your posts. --Kober 05:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

From the sources suggested by me, one can easily draw the basic outline of the city's history. "Tiflis" is a foreign transliteration of the Georgian "Tfilisi" (hence, the modern-day Tbilisi), literally meaning "warm". The city was the capital of Caucasian Iberia, a Georgian kingdom until being absorbed by the Sassanid empire in the 580s. The Arabs established their emirate here in the 8th century, but the Georgians fought back in the 11th century. Since then it was a capital of the Georgian kingdom, and its successor kingdom of Kartli. The 1783 Treaty of Georgievsk was concluded between the Georgian king Erekle II (who ruled as an independent monarch with his capital in Tbilisi) and Russia. The city was sacked by the Qajar khan Agha Muhhamed after the Georgians lost the Battle of Krtsanisi at the outskirts of Tbilisi in 1795, but the Persians did not establish their permanent control over Tbilisi. Erekle II, and his successor, George XII, started to rebuild the city. The Russian annexation took place in 1801, and Tbilisi became a center of the Military Governorate of Georgia, later expanded into Armenia and Azerbaijan and renamed into the Viceroyalty of Transcaucasia. The city always had a historic Armenian community which indeed played a prominent role in Tbilisi's economic and cultural life, but it increased significantly after the Russian wars with Turkey followed by a large tide of Armenians into Georgia. Georgians were traditionally bound to agricultural activities and stayed in rural areas while Armenians, skilled in commerce in urban setting, gradually became majority not only in Tbilisi, but Kutaisi, Gori, Telavi, and even Tskhinvali (see 1911 Britannica ans other contemporary sources for the demographics of the cities of Georgia). FYI, the independence of all three Transcaucasian nations - Georgia (May 26 1918), Azerbaijan (May 27), and Armenia (May 28) - were declared in Tbilisi because these events occured in the immediate afthermath of the dissolution of the Transcaucasian Federation (May 26 1918) whose government was headquartered in Tbilisi.--Kober 08:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all nobody is attacking you personally. Second, you are not the one who will decide who has to be blocked and who not. I have no time to go into the details of some pseudo historical data that you are arguing about. We were discussing the name of the city. You mentioned here about king Erecle 2, the battle of Krtsanisi etc etc etc . Even if supposingly we all agree, at least one of the Armenians will say- you guy, I do not believe in what is written in your history books or in ROnald Suny's books (by the way, Suny does not see the history of Tiflis in his dreams in USA or in his sexual fantasies- he just takes the same Georgian sources and translates them into English to bullshit as if he is doing something, the same way he falsificated all Armenian history as well, but thats a different topic),so that single armenian with a common sense will say I believe in what is obvious in folk culture or what is preserved today. The folk culture of Tbilisi did preserve some of the songs of the great trubadour of that time, a real " Tifliser" Sayat Nova, who was one of Erecle the 2's diplomats and was in love with king Erecle's sister Anna. Being a witness of all you described above- Battle of Krtsanisi near " Tbilisi", Georgievsky treaty etc etc Sayat Nova himself never called the city Tbilisi. He calls it Tiflis. Never ever he mentioned even in a single poem or a song or an idiom the word Tbilisi. Remember, he was killed by the same Qajar dinasty's Agha Khan who sacked Tbilisi and demanded the denounciation of the treaty of Georgievsk. Therefore, all whatever is written about the time of Georgievksiy dogovor or Battle of Krtsanisi or Erecle's time is a pure product of Georgian fantasy. There is no way to find a single document of that time when Tbilisi would be named Tbilisi. It is impossible since the real singer of the city who was in love with that city, in love with the sister of the king of Georgia calls it Tiflis. WHy shoud he use the Persian Tiurkic version of the name instead of Georgian name Tbilisi if he was the patriot of Georgia? This means that during the period under Persian rule and much before that period, today's capital of Georgia was really known as Tiflis and not Tbilisi. YOurs. ArmenianNY

Calling one of the most tragic pages in the history of Georgia "fabtasies" is highly offending. You have probably overlooked that I refer not only to Suny, but many other authorities (Minorsky, Lang, Allen). I can give you direct citations from myriads of contemporary and modern accounts (European, Russian, Armenian, Georgian) about the late 18th century history of Tbilisi, but I see no point in arguing with you. Btw, Sayat-Nova also used Tpilisi rather than Tiflis in his Georgian lyrics. Kind regards, --Kober 04:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Russian language used Tiflis before the October revolution.

I am not Georgian, but I live in Georgia. I read Georgian (Kartuli) and I am 100% certain that the name of the city is Tbilisi. Kartuli is a language where every letter is pronounced as it is written, and it translates directly to Tbilisi. If it was a different name in the past, whoever was running the place (this nationalistic stuff above I find mystifing), is makes no difference now, as current people call the place, and write it down as Tbilisi. Dobbs 08:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC) The inhabitants of Istanbul call the city Istanbul, armenians of Istanbul call that city KOstandnupolis or simply K.Polis, Russians call that city Stambul, some muslim nations call it Astambul but we all now that the name of the city is Kostantinopolis as it was found by Constantine and for 1000 years it was the capital of Byzantine EMpire by the name Kostantinopolis. Leningrad was Petrograd, Peter, Peterburg, Saint Petersburg but initially and finally it was and is Sankt Peterburg.SO my dear Dobbs, may be you read Kartuli and now that Georgians call their capital Tbilisi it is Tbilisi de fact and problably will always be. But 200 years ago that city was not called Tbilisi. And even 80 years ago,the majority of the inhabitants of the city, who were not Georgian but in fact Armenian, kept calling the city Tiflis. That city was very well known in the Russian Empire as the biggest industrial political and transportation center of Transcaucasia under the name Tiflis, the residence of Vice Royal of Caucasus. You can open any map of Russian Empire and you will never see any single mention of the name Tbilisi in any map published in that period. So nobody is arguing that at the moment the city is called Tbilisi but you also should not have any guts to call the nationalistic past of Tbilisi mistifying. The generation who used to live in the city named Tiflis is still alive.--armenianNY 23:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Moreover, I read in today's news that Tbilisi mayor Ubilava wants to bring back all the named of Tbilisi streets of 19th century. Thats a very good idea. In that case probably former Shahumyan street in Havlabar will be renamed and will not be Ketevan Samebuli street. Lots of other kartulocized streets will lose their names as well. They will have Russian and Armenian names. But will Ubilava rename Tbilisi as well, back to the version of 19th century?

though there is clearly nationalistic overtones to ArmenianNY's comments, he raises some interesting questions. surely they can be answered adequately and then the fuss will be over. can anyone tell us when the name tbilisi was first used. georgian is an ancient literary language and tbilisi is an ancient city--there must be sources with its name spelled the georgian way from hundreds of years ago, why can noo ne cite them? also, does Tabriz really come from the persian for warm, if so maybe T'b in georgian is a persian borrowing (like many others), though my linguist friends assure me that T'b is a uniquely georgian root. finally, as a resident of this fair city, it might interst ArmenianNY to know that there are a fair few gerogians here who call tbilisi tiflis, albeit with a slight affectation. it is easier to pronounce for foreigners (who usually say tiblisi) and evokes the city's 19th century charm...

We are talking about the toponim Tiflis that came from Tebriz and not Tbilisi. Therefore, Tebriz can not come from Georgian warm since Tiflis is not warm in Georgian, it is Tbilisi that means warm.I do not also think that Georgian language could have such a tremendous influence in Persian life that some cities in Persia could have taken their names from Georgian language. It was Georgia under Persian rule and not Persia under Georgian and so far there are hundred of Persian borrowings in Georgian language and not vise-versa. I got your point about Tbilisi's ancient name. Can you site any medieval or ancient historian or geographer who mentioned somehow, somewhere in his works the name Tbilisi? For example Ptolomeus or Marco Polo or whoever...Please do not cite Georgian mythological works, or Rustaveli's epical works or legends or other colloquial ethnographic remains. --armenianNY 18:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, actually Tiflis is the Turkish version of the name Tbilisi. Tiflis as a name was used by other cultures / languages as well, when referring to Tbilisi. However, the proper Georgian name for the capital is Tbilisi. Hope this helps!

Oh yeah, of course it helps. I wish it was so easy to explain everything. We call it Tbilisi the other cultures call it Tiflis. The same way Russians will say we call it Kaliningrad but some Germanic cultures call it Konigsberg. And everybody is happy and satisfied.... Guy, this is an encyclopedic site, so please, go and express your thoughts in the children's version of wikipedia if it exists. Or you try editing some junior encyclopedia's such as "When, who and where" or " I want to know everything" or "Pochemuchka" in Russian etc. ArmenianNY

`Voyage du ChevalierChardin en Pers.` vol. 2. p. 73. : `This city is called Tibilis Kalaki (Warm city) or simply Tbilis or Tvilis, warm, because of the warm springs that are found inside the city and outside of its walls.` See the same volume, p. 86-87. `They say that it`s the Persians who gave the name Tifflis to the city, but Georgians do not call it Tifliss. They call it Cala which means city or the forteress(Cala is of Arabic origin).... Some Georgians call it Tebilé-Cala, that is warm city, because of the warm water bath or because it is not as cold there as in other parts of Georgia.` I have read read that some believe there were more Armenians in Tbilisi that Georgians. Maybe, but I found something very interesting that I want to share with you. In 1901 edition of Brockhous and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary the page 264 of the voulue 33 reads: the population of Tbilisi district: Russians- 4,4%, Greeks- 2,7%, Ossetians- 8,9%, Armenians- 23,9%, Georgians- 45%, Tushetians- 0,7%, Pshavelians- 1,1%, Khevsurians- 0,8%, Imeretians-1,1%. If you know a little bit of Georgia, you must know that Imeretians (Imerlebi), Tushetians (Tushebi), Pshavelians (Pshavelebi - you must have heard of Vazha Pshavela, at least), Khevsurians (Khevsurebi), Kakhetians (Kakhelebi), Megrelians (Megrelebi), Svanetians (Svanebi), ets. ARE GEORGIANS. So, how come an encyclopedia made such a mistake as to divide Georgians into tribes. Maybe because Kartveli has two meanings: 1) Kartleli (from the region of Kartili) and Geogian. One way or another, if the population of Tbilis district was not counted properly, I have a doubt that we`ve got the correct information about Tbilisi population, which has been diverse. Besides, in 19th century and at the begining of the 20th century people`s nationality was determined by their religion. E.G. 19th century Georgian publisist, Niko Nikoladze wrote in his memoirs about three traders: Armenina Petré Mgebrovi, a French from Gori, Gabriel Endronikashvili and the third Nikoladze, his father. Mgebrovi is in fact a Russian version of Mgebrishivli, a Georgian family name (Mgebavi means painter). He was just Monophysit and that`s why he was concidered to be an Armenian. As for Endronikashvili - he was a Georgian but Katholic but because of his religion considered to be French. Ha-ha-ha! I plan to learn as much as possible about the population of Tbilisi before and after Russia conquered it. Your help will be appreciated. Nina Iberi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.243.254.224 (talk) 20:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)