Talk:Tartan Day/Archive 1

Archive 1

Too many links

There are way too many. Can I suggest trimming them down to the noteworthy ones, or else a separate page? Guinnog 01:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to implement this. As I lack the knowledge to select which ones, if any, may be noteworthy, I'm going to move them all to a new page. Please feel free to reinsert a reasonable number of noteworthy ones. Guinnog 10:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Tartan Day created by New York Caledonian Club

Before anyone jumps on me for changing this page, let me say that I am the Archivist of the NYCC, and do have in my possession the Proclamations described. We are trying to rectify the error in the history of this day.

We mean no disrespect to Canada or to Jean. I will attempt to contact her to discuss this further.

Please feel free to contact me through the NYCC Website, or through NYCC Archivist

Thank you.

Rick Stanley Scotsgeek 20:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting the article, Rick. However your addition does then raise the issue of the connection between the NYCC's initial creation and Jean's later work. In particular whether she took the concept from the NYCC and promoted it or whether she independently re-invented it. It seems to me that a little more detective work would be a good thing. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

How many?

On the Scottish-American page it says:

In the 2000 Census, 4.9 million Americans reported Scottish ancestry, 1.7% of the total US population. Given Scotland's population (just over 5 million), there are almost as many Scottish Americans as there are native Scots living in their home country. Another 4.3 million reported Ulster Scots ancestry, for a total of 9.2 million Americans of Scots descent.

But on this page it says:

Tartan Day celebrates the existing and historical links between Scotland and Scottish descendants overseas. In the United States there are over 20 million people who claim Scots descent

This needs to be checked out

Superdude99

That 20 million was derived from the Scottish government Tartan Day site. "In the USA there are over 20 million people who claim Scots descent," This link, and some others [1] and [2] That figure may well include Scots in more general things such as "Americans" and British American, (perhaps even Irish American from the Scotch-Irish).

--Revolt 11:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The article was changed since the source given for the "30 million" Scottish Americans doesn't even support that number. A more recent version of the source was added showing an estimate of at least 6 million. The 30 million statement was left in case a verifiable source can be found. ndyguy (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Unheard of in New Zealand?

The article states that '... whereas in Australia and New Zealand it is celebrated on 1st of July...'. I, for one, have never encountered such a celebration and it would be interesting to see if someone could come up with a reference for that. As someone involved in the Scottish Country Dancing scene in New Zealand (albeit 15 years ago) I would have expected to have encountered those celebrations as an excuse for some kind of party! Karora 08:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd second the comment, though from a little further west. I'm an Australian who is proud of his Scots heritage and have attended Highland events at various times. I've never heard of Tartan Day being celebrated in Australia ~ Brother William (talk) 13:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Sounds like the article needs correction, then. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure we should mention Australia at all. The refs used for that section aren't good enough IMO. One is to a letter, from a member of a clan society in Australia, only proposing a tartan day in Australia. The other just lists tartan day "events" around the world. This just seems to mean little get-togethers held by clan societies. Really non-notable stuff. Maybe we ought to remove the Aussie and international stuff for now, unless someone can find something showing governments, other than the American and Canadian, that recognise 'tartan day'.--Celtus (talk) 05:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree and have removed the section until better references can be found. --John (talk) 07:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Tartan as the First National Dress

I don't think this section belongs in the article at all. I have removed it twice. What do other editors think? --John (talk) 07:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The information added is interesting, particularly Macaulay's amusing opinion but it shouldn't be added to this article. I think that it would be more appropriate for something like the kilt article. But probably the best article for it is the one on the visit of King George IV to Scotland. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree I agree. Yes the information added is very opinionated, however the subjest is relevant. see the source of the reference at link. this reference clearly deals with what could be described as the origines and evolution of the tartan tradition that has culminated in tatan day. Accordingly, although I think the choice of quotes from the source is an unfortunate one, this section belongs in the article, it deals with the origines. These origines (even if they are dubious) are a part of the history of tartan day. Yours Czar Brodie (talk) 17:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That's the thing though. The origins of Tartan Day lie in the existence of people of Scottish heritage in North America as a result of emigration (voluntary and forced) to North America. The name chosen for it could as easily have been Scots Heritage Day or Caledonian Day as Tartan Day. So if we are to explain the reasons for celebration of the day we should be explaining the reasons for Scottish emigration and settlement in the New World not the reasons for the popularity of tartan. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I see your point- The origins of Tartan Day are not the origins of Tartan. going with Celtus's general idea, perhapes the section be removed and the article read:

About Tartan Day

for the history of tartan dress see Scottish dress

In 1982,.......

and the section be moved to Scottish dress. Yours, Czar Brodie (talk) 19:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the general idea of it should be fleshed out at the beginning of the article, like as part of an introduction. A bit on why tartan is popular to those of Scottish heritage, why it is used to promote Scottish heritage around the world, and why the day is named after it. Something like that. I don't really think the section fits in the article so well at the moment though. I noticed we've got an article on Scottish dress too.--Celtus (talk) 06:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Unheard of in Scotland?

Tartan Day is almost universally unheard of in Scotland: sounds to me like a ploy invented by people trying to coin it in. Adambisset 00:54, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Since it's a Canadian invention there's no reason why anyone in Scotland would have heard of it. It was intended for people who had emigrated from Scotland -- not for people who still live there. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:58, 2005 Feb 4 (UTC)

It is widely reported in the Scottish newspapers & on the TV, mainly because Scottish politicians & Sean Connery go over there. There was a big fuss caused in 2004 or 2005 when Jack McConnell wore a pinstripe kilt to the celebrations. AllanHainey 16:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

All the same, I would question the legitimacy of this being linked from the Scottish template as it is a colonial rather than a Scottish event. Guinnog 10:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Tartan day is fairly well known and well thought of inside Scotland and supported by the media and Parliament... some individuals may not know of it but they should be wary of assuming their ignorance is common.

'Ignorance'. Nice. I have lived in Scotland for several decades and I assure you it is neither well known nor well thought of. If it is in the news at all it is because of Sean Connery's antics in the US or the like. Guinnog 17:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

What I want to know is why it's not called 'Scotland Day'. That'd be a much better name.--Nydas 20:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course it would be, if it were anything to do with Scotland. As the article says, it was the work of mainly N Americans of Scots origin, for whom Tartan Day would sound OK. Most modern Scots in Scotland are not that excited by tartan. We have a couple of perfectly good national days in Hogmanay and Burns Night already, not to mention St Andrews Day. 'Tartan Day' is not held in high regard in Scotland, or indeed even much known outside of the occasional celeb-related news story. The fact it has different dates in different continents also says a lot! Yuck. Guinnog 22:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think its origin was more related to celebrating the Scottish heritage in Nova Scotia than in celebrating Scotland itself. It has come to mean that for North Americans (I think we'll avoid using the word colonial, okay), but I think it's supported by the Sc. parliament because it came about the same year as the parliament's repatriation and it keeps Scotland in the minds of tourists. I think most students of Scotland know that the whole tartan thing, Scottish games, etc., are relatively recent in the history of the country. CMacMillan 22:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I am scottish and I have never heard of tartan day 78.144.165.216 (talk) 18:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

That's about the size of it. Do you think it belongs on the template? Guinnog 23:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, you wanted a shorter answer ;) No, not really. CMacMillan 04:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually this year [2006] there were Tartan Day events all over Scotland. This is the first year it has really made it back across the pond. And April 6th is the anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Arbroath, making it important. Look for it to increase each year. MarkSutherland 14:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

As the article mentions, the April date is one of two different ones this is celebrated in different locales.

Google doesn't give me much on Scottish celebration of Tartan Day. Do you have a cite? Guinnog 06:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to source these claims. However, a link to the organiser's website isn't the most encyclopedic evidence for the success or popularity of an event! Would you have a better reference?

See Wikipedia:Reliable sources if that is any help.

Guinnog 23:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Failing a reliable source for this, I'll have to reedit this again. By reliable, I mean a source other than the organisers themselves. Thanks. Guinnog 14:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

"Look for it to increase each year [after 2006]" - 2007 update; no events in Scotland, no mention of it (in a domestic context) anywhere that I can find. It clashed with a late Easter this year, but even so, I'd attribute it more to funding and enthusiasm running out. Rogerborg 13:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC) It doesn't deserve a citation. Not only is it not well thought of in Scotland it is virtually unheard of in the US and is meaningless. There IS a Scottish holiday and anyone who would trying to supersede Burns Day which IS celebrated in Scotland and the US and Canada is idiotic at best..

JRScotia (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

It’s not idiotic. Scotland can't claim a cultural monopoly over Scottishness. Transatlantic Scots have an autonomous identity and have chosen to celebrate it with a unique holiday. Lachrie (talk) 11:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Why Tartan Day?

As a Scot I am aware of Tartan Day but I would question why it gained such a title.

As a supposed celebration of the Scottish contribution to life in North America the term Tartan Day is confusing. Tartan may be internationally linked to Scotland but it is not unique to it. Ireland, Wales and some parts of the north of England have Tartan designs that are as old as those in Scotland.

Am I surpised that it has taken off in North America as we in Scotland have no such national celebration. St. Andrew, William Wallace, Robert the Bruce and Robert Burns may be our national icons but there is no day to celebrate them in the "old country"

Holden 27

Well that's not quite true. St Andrew's Day -- November 30th is the day when we are supposed to celebrate. Whether we do or not is up to us, of course. In my experience Scots overseas make a bigger deal of it than Scots at home. However there are official celebrations in some council areas: Angus for one.

Oh, and the only reason that Irish, Welsh, English, corporate, sporting and fashion tartans exist is because the Scottish Tartan council has been busily inventing them for the past hundred years or so in order to expand the market. But don't let that confuse you. Tartan Is Scottish. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"The date commemorates the signing of the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320, the first known formal Declaration of independence."

I BEG your pardon! the Declaration of Arbroath was NOT a "declaration of independence" since Scotland WAS independent. It was an appeal to the pope to lift excommunication!

JRScotia (talk) 05:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The declaration of Scotland's continuing independence was included in the letter to the pope. Lachrie (talk) 11:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Changing the Intro

I recently came back to this article while looking for something else. Having read through the current information, which lists details from Canada as well as the New York Caledonian Club that precede the US Senate Resolution I am going to remove the part that claims Tartan Day derives from the Resolution. ~ Brother William (talk) 05:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Would someone care to come up with some EVIDENCE that the Declaration of Independence was based on the Declaration of Arbroath? A VERY suspect claim.

And what does the number of the Scottish Diaspora have to do with making up some holiday?

JRScotia (talk) 05:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Edward J. Cowan in his essay on Tartan Day notes: ‘In making its resolution the Senate adduced no evidence.’ The claim of a link is speculative. There are suggestive parallels, and there may have been an indirect influence at least. John Witherspoon and James Wilson were two signatories of the American declaration, and graduates respectively of St Andrews and Edinburgh. Their own individual writings appear to echo the language and sentiments of the Declaration of Arbroath, and both were steeped in traditions of Scottish patriotism and libertarian philosophy. Wilson in particular adapts language common to the Declaration of Arbroath and one of its literary influences, Sallust, and could have got it from either. Presumably the size of the diaspora is included because it underlines the scale of its contribution to Canadian and American life, and helps to explain why the Scots abroad have decided they should have a unique public day of their own. Lachrie (talk) 10:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Worth noting that H.Res.41 tones down the language, "in part modeled on..." Le Deluge (talk) 18:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)