Talk:Tarot of Marseilles

A fact from Tarot of Marseilles appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 July 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Tarot of Marseilles is the source of most contemporary designs of tarot cards?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2005/July.

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Michael's Tarot Notebook

SmiloidI've added a link to the website of Michael J. Hurst ~~

Removed

The arcanes of Tarot of Marseilles are near from antic egyptian tarot. gypsies (meaning coming from Egypt), spread it around Mediteranean sea. The gypsies originated from India, then it could come from India as another gypsy art : circus.

This needs references before it is added again. --Error 01:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright infringement?

Why do these card images all seem to have copyright warnings in them? They're too small to read, but along the upper end of the left border of each card is something that looks like a copyright notice. Not a good sign.

Has whoever added these images checked that they're actually old cards (with original colourings)? If not, we're likely infringing someone's copyright. There are a number of decks that either use old Marseilles Tarot linework with altered colouring (which is a sufficient change to allow a modern copyright on the images) or else use modern images drawn in the style of the old Marseilles cards.

The source information given for these images is rather scanty and hardly reassuring. We need better information on where these images originate and why we can treat them as being in the public domain. Otherwise they need to be deleted. Thanks for your help. Fuzzypeg ★ 00:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A little more research reveals that this deck is the Tarot of Marseilles published since 1970 by the French company Grimaud. Grimaud have cleaned up the images from the original woodcuts printed in primary red, yellow and blue. That little copyright notice probably says "© Grimaud 1970". Start looking for new images, guys! Fuzzypeg ★ 05:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think cleaning up public-domain images does not make copyrightable images. Am I right? Dicklyon (talk) 18:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Papessa

The article text conflicts with La Papessa#Manfreda. -- 88.112.53.195 (talk) 15:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

grammar

VI. L'Amoureux (The Lovers)

XVI. La Maison Dieu (The House of God, or The Tower)

Shouldn't that be Les Amoureux and La Maison-Dieu? —Tamfang (talk) 03:41, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mediaeval Symbolism

Tarot cards contain pictures that are full of symbols. Although symbols may change their significance over time, the clothes of the people in the Tarot de Marseille to date the images to southern Europe in the early fifteenth century. This suggests that the designs of the woodblocks that created the cards are significantly older than the oldest extant cards. It is unsurprising that the wood blocks would survive rather longer than the prints they originally made, and the missing top and bottom of each card suggests that the ends of the blocks became worn or even rotten before the printing of the deck that survived at the Grimaud company.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has researched the original purpose of the cards very deeply, although many writers refer to the popularity of various devices for improving retention. Carruthers and Ziolkowski (The Medieval Craft of Memory, 2002) emphasize that retention was seen as the basis of creation. Much of what is known of this period and topic relates to those people who could read (a rapidly burgeoning group throughout the period) even if they were not always able to write, for lack of skill or materials. However, people who could neither read nor write would face an equally pressing need, perhaps a more pressing need, for memory development. The use of symbols to improve recall is a well-documented phenomenon. Tarot cards as a tool for illiterates seems a very plausible theory of their origin.Grae Baker (talk) 05:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)Grae Baker[reply]

Seeking source

Does anyone have a copy of this ref they can share? Depaulis, Thierry (2013). "The Tarot de Marseille – Facts and Fallacies part I". The Playing-Card. 42 (1): 23–43. Dicklyon (talk) 18:05, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling and capitalisation

@Dicklyon: I'm afraid I've had to revert your latest edits because they do not follow the source being cited - the International Playing Card Society who are the authority on playing card patterns - which clearly capitalises both the French name of the pattern as well as the English name and the word "Tarot". And please do not translate words back into French simply to try and get rid of capitalisation. Also note that the word Tarot is capitalised in the majority of sources according to Ngram Viewer. Please be aware that continuing to pursue an anti-capitalisation campaign without regard to the actual sources could constitute disruptive editing. ~~ Bermicourt (talk) 07:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Most sources don't cap tarot nor the French terms. I didn't do any translating back to French, just de-capped what they're called. The n-grams verify that tarot is frequently lowercase; see MOS:CAPS for the relevant criterion for capping. Dicklyon (talk) 00:19, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See these in particular, reflecting the changes we're discussing:

If there are any changes I made that are not consistent with sources, let us know. As for the i-p-c-s source, following that when most sources use lowercase would be an example of WP:SSF. Dicklyon (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, you should have followed WP:BRD. Please revert your edits until a consensus is reached on the talk page.

Secondly, WP:SSF has no standing and is simply an essay by an anti-capitalisation editor to conveniently override WP:RELIABLE SOURCES with self-created Wikipedia style rules based on North American practice. The fact that it allows you to glibly dismiss the international authority on card patterns just proves the point. And your Ngram examples are always carefully crafted to support your case, but if you just type in "Tarot" and "tarot", you'll find Tarot is, if anything, more common. Either way "Tarot" is so widely used that there is absolutely no justification for banning it as if it's wrong. Bermicourt (talk) 08:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing you say here refutes the clear evidence from sources, nor overrides the guidelines of MOS:CAPS. You just don't like it. If there's some context in which caps are needed, find it, and we'll see if I made any mistakes. Dicklyon (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for the context "Tarot de Marseilles", yes, I'll grant you that in English sources the Tarot is capped, though in French it's not. So since you changed the text to say that's the preferred name in English according to the IPCS, I'm OK with it. Thanks for leaving the other case fixes. Dicklyon (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Name of Tarot I

Just checked the name of this card and its correct name appears to be Le Bateleur - this is often written on the card itself - and in English either "The Mountebank" (see Dummett (1980), p. 108) or "The Juggler" (see the International Playing Card Pattern Sheet for this card pack). The pack emerged in the 17th century probably in Lyon, but AFAICS the name "Magician" was not coined until Etteilla the occultist used it for the Tarot 15 of his bespoke Egyptian pack around 1845. This lines up with the cited table in the Major Arcana article. It may well be that occultists who use this pack call it the Magician, but that is back-borrowing and not its original or correct name. Bermicourt (talk) 19:11, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]