Talk:Taras Shevchenko

Zapovit'

The translation that stood until 25 November seemed to scan and rhyme. The one we have since doesn't, nor is it very good English. As a word-for-word, it's fine, but to me half the appeal of Shevchenko is the elegant, understated way he uses the common language in the common rhythms of folk poetry. How would everyone feel about changing back to the versified version? As an alternative, would anyone like to collaborate on a new, made-to-order verse translation? Comments from User:Shrooms546 are especially welcomed, if unlikely. eritain 06:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that the new translation present now is sliughtly incorrect. It talks about "tyrant's blood" while original talks about "enemies' blood". This kind of narrows Shevchenko's protest to some single person of Russian tzar or Polish king or any other ruler, while he actually refered to freedom from all kind of enemies, without being narrowly specific. 176.195.106.197 (talk) 01:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

No, it's "tyrants' blood", which is the plural, not the singular, in English. This is the best translation I've ever found in that it does justice to the mood and tone of Shevchenko's poem. There are a few wishy-washy attempts by other translators who have some status, but they don't capture the overall understated power and sense to any degree. We can't change a couple of words from the official translations to satisfy what we'd consider to be a better translation as that would be original research. Just compare this version against the other on this page and tell me I'm wrong. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Trivia

Added Trivia, I thought it was cute (new order is one of my fave bands). Mariah-Yulia 04:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Brotherhood of Sts Cyril & Methodius

Subtelny says he and Kulish were only loosely associated. Magocsi says there is some doubt whether they were members. I can pull out the references and quotes if you like, but for now, I'll just remove the fact tag. —Michael Z. 2006-04-02 19:26 Z

Shevchenko Park claim

According to maps of Kharkiv (Google Map of Kharkiv), the Shevchenko Park is less than 1 km², which doesn't beat the 20 or so parks listed in Urban park, and these are only some of the largest park in North America only. I've removed the invalid claim that it's one of the largest urban parks in the world. --Romanski 13:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Precentor?

Was he taught by a dyak? If so, I just realized that we don't even have an article for such a position. Dyak doesn't even mention the position at all, and cantor is woefully inadequate.--tufkaa 22:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup, you are fully correct. I just did not want to create a one sentence article about dyak. If you can, please do so. Regards, --Riurik 15:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Monuments and Memorials

There is an interesting statue of Shevchenko in a toga in Rome (at the Ukrainian Catholic University/seminary there). If anyone had a photo, this might make an interesting addition.

What sort of citation is needed for the note that many cities in Ukraine were replacing statues of Lenin with Shevchenko? It is quite common in western Ukraine; the statue of Lenin was pulled down in Lviv, and a new statue of Shevchenko placed in the main central square. Most towns I have visited in western Ukraine no longer have Lenin statues, and have replaced them with Shevchenko statues. --lubap 2 February 2007

Winnipeg Monument

If memory serves me correctly, there is a statue of him at the Winnipeg Legislature? Anyone confirm?

... Manitoba Historical Society has info at the following: http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/pageant/07/newmonument.shtml Okinasevych (talk) 06:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Stolen Monument

I suggest to move information on the accident with the monument in Oakville, Ontario to the article Oakville, Ontario. There is info on the monument already (Was. Somebody nicely removed it. Will restore.). I find in a bit inappropriate to keep it here - the main article on poet where only a general type information should be kept. Any objections?--Bryndza 19:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure this accident even belongs to Oakville, Ontario article but not this one for sure. If someone ever writes a separate article about the monument, that would be the place for the info. --Irpen 23:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This is true. It's rather curiosity. BTW, I have my own photo of the stolen monument. I would upload it and contribute to the article shall anybody start it. I wonder how it can be called?--Bryndza 23:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Taras Shevchenko monument in Oakville, Ontario could be used for the article's title should anyone be interested to write an article. If a better title pops up later, the article could be moved. If we have this article, the monument is definitely worthy of its own article. --Irpen 00:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC) IM IN HIS FAMILY!

Difference between English version and Russian version

Hi I'm now responsible in translating the article in ZH version and mainly rely on EN version. I know chuchu Russian and learn something quite strange that the RU article doesn't mention about the freedom bought by Karl Briullov in 1838 but studying in Vilnius University. I stop reading farther and just want to know what makes the difference. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

"Nationality" in English means practically the same as "Citizenship". So Shevchenko was citizen of Russian Empire. This is also consistent with Russian version of this article. Making correction. Chelentano (talk) 00:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

"Nationality" here obviously means "ethnic group", not "citizenship". The 1897 census of the Russian Empire included Ukrainian as a distinct "nationality" (ethnic group in our terminology). Ivan Franko's nationality is also listed as Ukrainian. The Russian article for Shevchenko uses specifically the term "grazhdanstvo" (citizenship), not "natsional'nost'" (nationality). I am therefore restoring Ukrainian for Shevchenko's nationality. --Zlerman (talk) 02:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree with Zlerman. Chelentano, nationality does not mean citizenship; have a look at a good dictionary (unfortunately the Wiktionary entry is lacking at the moment). —Michael Z. 2009-01-08 03:10 z

Ivan Franko's nationality is also incorrectly listed as Ukrainian. Again, Nationality in English usually means "Citizenship". Quote from Wikipedia: "Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person... The legal sense of nationality, particularly in the English speaking world, may often mean citizenship". Another link from Wiktionary dictionary translates "nationality" exactly as "citizenship" and nothing else: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nationality . "Nationality" in English could mean in some cases ethnicity, but it's not a typical meaning. Another proper use of the word "nationality" could be found in these Wikipedia articles Hitler, Wilhelm Röntgen, Niels Bohr, Marie Curie... Yes, the Russian meaning of nationality is in fact "ethnicity", but this is an English-language article and we must use this word the English way, otherwise we would confuse English reader who does not know/care what it means in other languages. Restoring my edit. Chelentano (talk) 04:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's wrong. You quote a line and base your argument on it, while ignoring the lead sentence which immediately precedes it, and also ignoring what the article says about citizenship.

Nationality denotes belong to a nation, a people, which may also be strongly tied to a country, a nation-state. But an empire is not a nation. Sometimes nation is used as a synonym for country, and, confusingly, in the USA this is sometimes treated as the only meaning of the word. You'll note that the United Kingdom is a country comprising four nations: English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish.

The Ukrainians are a nation, and so are the Russians. An empire is not a nation.

Fortunately, {{Infobox writer}} has fields for citizenship, ethnicity, and nationality. Unfortunately, it doesn't say what these mean. I'm going to apply the first two, which should be uncontroversial. —Michael Z. 2009-01-08 05:43 z

• You are making the same mistake again: it sounds like according to you, nation should always be mono-ethnic. It does not always have to be mono-ethnic. To According to Wikipedia, "A nation is a cultural and social community." That's the key. In that case both UK and Russian Empire could definitely be qualified as a nation. Pretty much any mature state qualifies as a cultural and social community or nation. Anyway, like it or not, but the primary English meaning of Nationality is Citizenship. You could replace it with Ethnicity and Citizenship: works for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chelentano (talk • contribs) 06:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• I've improved the Wiktionary definition at d:nationality. I used six respectable dictionaries as reference, and although their collective definitions had a lot of breadth, they all included ethnicity, race, or a people among them, and birth, origin, traditions and language were common themes. Three mentioned naturalization and two allegiance, but citizenship was absent. —Michael Z. 2009-01-10 20:23 z

• [The Wiktionary entry may be reverted over a dispute about template use. Please refer to this version. —Michael Z. 2009-01-10 20:32 z]

• thanks Chelentano (talk) 07:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

He was a serf of Russian aristocrat lord Pavel Engelhardt all his live?

According to the article he was... Was he never bought free? And if so by who? This need to be corrected IMO cause the way the article is now it looks he was a serf of Russian aristocrat lord Pavel Engelhardt all his live. — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 13:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

There used to be info about it in the article. Is this info still corect? I surley hope it wasn't removed becuase he was freed by Russians and not by Ukrainians.... If that was the reason then that is truly said... — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 13:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Russian name

There is no reason to have the Russian spelling of his name in an English language encyclopedia. The rationale given is nonsense. I ask user:Glebchik (apparently his only purpose on wikipedia is to add Russian spellings in places it doesn't belong) to stop. Thanks. By the way, when I said "nationalist disruption" I was not referring to user:Zlerman rather to the original edit. sorry Ostap 05:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I too don't really find the Russian name appropriate. Yeah, he wrote in Russian. And I bet all those people from post-Soviet countries also wrote in Russian, spoke Russian and maybe even knew it as their mother tounge.. Adding Russian names on all those articles is just clutterfull. If its an established name like Kiev (Киев) IMO it shall stay. But elsewhere, its unneeded. Just add a footnote or something if it really makes that big a deal, its all minor details. ddima.talk 05:38, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

On a simuliar note: there are still lots of English wiki articles out there about Ukrianians where only the Russian spelling of the person's name is given. Like Tamara Yerofeeva who was 9 years old when the USSR desolved!!! I try to change them articles as much as possible of course. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 07:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. It is often useful as a good starting point when trying to find out about something. Knowing the Russian spelling of names of people can be very helpful, because it makes it easier to look up more information on them.

There is a problem that some Ukrainian nationalists want to airbrush out the fact that half the country speaks Russian as their first language. This is why Russian language TV stations in Kiev have Ukrainian subtitles.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:11, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Not sure your first point is a valid argument... Most users of this wikipedia speak neither Russian or Ukrainian (of course they can use Google Translate). I think the Ukr + Rus version should be given if a person lived in the Russian Empire or is from a part of Ukraine where Russian is the dominate language (if it is likley this person used and was adressed to in the Russian version of her/his name).

— Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 08:28, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want to search on Google and want hits on Russian language sites, you need to know how his name is in Russian. Similarly, you need to know how his name is in Ukrainian, to find him on Ukrainian language sites. You can use machine translation, to cope with sites if you can find them. The person who does not speak Russian, therefore has more need for the name to be given in Russian script, not less.

As for Taras Shevchenko, of course he used and was addressed to in the Russian version of his name some of the time. He lived in the Russian Empire, and wrote in both Russian and Ukrainian languages.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh please. This is an encyclopedia, not a collection of ways to spell names in other languages. If someone wants the Russian version they are free to use the interwiki links on the left side of the page to go to the Russian wikipedia. Your claim that "Ukrainian nationalists want to airbrush out the fact that half the country speaks Russian as their first language. " has nothing to do with this article at all. Ostap 17:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Taras Shevchenko's wikipedia page

Hello! There may be an error in Taras Shevchenko's wikipedia page. That page contains specimen of 1,000,000 karbovanets banknote with T.Shevchenko's image. The underwritten statement is then referring to that specimen of a banknote as 'Taras Shevchenko on the current 1000000 karbovanets banknote'. I've got trouble about that 'current' thing. Karbovanets has been replaced with hryvnias a long time ago. Thank you for your attention and consideration.46.202.233.69 (talk) 10:55, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

This entry for Taras Shevchenko is in desperate need of blue pencilling!

I started to clean this entry up, only to discover that it is in desperate need of some serious reworking simply to give it a semblance of coherency in the English language.

My apologies for sounding brusque about the state of this entry but, considering that Shevchenko is a pivotal presence in the history of the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian identity, it reads as an amateurish cleanup of a bot translation. Not only is it awkward to read, but it doesn't even retain any tense, merely jumping from the past to the present tense from one sentence to the next.

I don't want to tread on anyone's toes by overhauling it without consulting with anyone, but it truly is in a shocking state. Could someone please direct me to a senior editor who could assist me with this process? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I can try and help. I am actually Ukrainian and I can speak English so I might be able to help.I'm always ready to help. NataliyaKlymko (talk) 17:46, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Entire article needs cleanup

The entire article appears to have been written by somebody whose first language is not English. While in some sense this is commendable, in another is hints that it desperately needs cleanup for reasons of language and style. I am shocked how bad this article is given the importance of Shevchenko.

In the current article:

"On February 10 [O.S. January 29] 1823 his older sister and nany Kateryna married Anton Krasytsky, a peasant from Zelena Dibrova. On September 1 [O.S. August 20] 1823 Taras' mother died due to hard work and misery.[14][15][16] A month later on October 19 [O.S. October 7] 1823 his father married a widow Oksana Tereshchenko, a native of Moryntsi village, who already had own three children.[Note d][17][18] She cruelly treated foster children, in particular little Taras."

Honestly this sounds like it was written by a 7-year old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.245.96 (talk) 18:39, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you NataliyaKlymko and IP 86.30.245.96. Due to a backlog in my work on Wikipedia, this article has even fallen off my backburner list. I really can't find the time to copyedit, check citations and everything else this article needs to bring it up to scratch... which is why we need motivated contributors to rescue important articles! NataliyaKlymko, I've left a Teahouse invitation on your page. Any questions about Wikipedia styles, policy, etc. can be directed there and will be answered promptly. 86.30.245.96, it would be wonderful if you'd create a user account (I've left a message on your page regarding the benefits), however your participation without creating an account would still be more than welcome.

As this article and corresponding talk page are on my watchlist, I'm happy to assist with general tidying and formatting. I'll check in on any changes as they occur, but you're welcome to leave a message on my talk page or call out should you need assistance. Happy editing! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian or Russian? Or Russian-Ukranian? May be Ukranian-Russian?..

Ukrainian or Russian? Or Russian-Ukranian? May be Ukranian-Russian?..

The most of his arts and private (intimate) diary this man wrote in Russian language. May we exclude his creativity from the Russian culture? I think he was both Russian and Ukrainian great writer. --= APh =-- (talk) 09:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, yes. We've heard the 'diary written in Russian' argument before. Indeed, we do exclude him from Russian culture. Have you actually read his seminal works (written in Ukrainian). Had you read "Kobzar'" pre-dating the redacted and reworked version published in the Soviet Union, you'd be aware of how many references made to his hatred of the Moskal'. Would that suggest to you that he considered himself to be Russian? Follow reliable sources, not your own original research. Growing up and having to find patronage in the Russian Empire did not, under any stretch of the imagination, make him Russian. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Shevchenko was Russian, working in Moscow and wrote in Malorossian (Small Russian). Even Kobzar was spelled with Russian (Ъ aka 'ER'). "Ukraine" formed in Austro-Hungary since 1880 by indoctrination and physical termination of Russians, who refused to take side of Franz Joseph (Thalerhof, Teresin). The 'Ъ' never was added to it, but 'Ь' ('ER’ ') was changed to 'soft sound' by Poles (Poland) in 1890 on the territory of Austro-Hungary. Russian language was in contrast reformed in 1920. Shevchenko's works were translated(!) into Ukrainian only during USSR around 1927+, as the "mutated Russians" (Ukrainians) were physically pushed out by Poles after Russo-Polish war 1920-1922 into Russian territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.1.158.183 (talk) 12:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

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Current monument in Moscow

I visited Moscow in 2019. I happened to walk by a monument to Taras Shevchenko and got a picture. It was about a block from the Hotel Ukraina (also called the Radisson Collection Hotel). I suppose Google Maps would tell me what street the monument is on, but of course I don't know when it was put up or anything else. Does anyone have more information on this monument? Never mind, a look on Google Maps shows that I photographed a different (and much smaller) monument than the main one, which is across from the front of the Hotel Ukraina/Radisson Collection Hotel. The monument I photographed is of an angel riding a horse with a mermaid's tail. RobDuch (talk·contribs) 01:10, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Taras Shevchenko wrote in Ukrainian and Russian.

Since Taras Shevchenko wrote in Ukrainian and Russian, both languages should be mentioned. But someone keeps deleting this sourced reference. --2001:718:1E03:5128:D512:F42F:E7B1:AEFD (talk) 19:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

pronunciation

Is [tɐˈrɑz ɦrɪˈɦɔrowɪtʃ ʃeu̯ˈtʃɛnko] correct? Why isn't Тарас tɐˈrɑs? And how is Леся Українка pronounced? Espoo (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian poet, Russian writer born in Russian Empire

@Lute88 stop vandalism! He was born in Russian Empire, not Ukraine (that was created in 1991). And he wrote mostly in Russian and create poetry in Ukrainian. So no controversy here, you are trying to discuss with well known facts and try to bring your POV ultra nationalism anti Russia propaganda. Yes there is war, but it have nothing to to with writer born in Russian Empire 200 years ago, your propaganda is not necessarily! Joaziela (talk) 14:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

and another vandal @194.44.253.74 doing the same Joaziela (talk) 17:49, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

and another one @93.75.254.213. Maybe its better to protect the page from vandalism Joaziela (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

probably those are IPs of @Lute88 who is not only not stopping vandalism, but also removed it from his discussion page Joaziela (talk) 20:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@Neptune777 you are making edition war and dont participate in discussion page. Already @Freerow2 and @Surveyor Mount were doing the same vandalism as you and also claiming that he wasnt born in Russian Empire. Really i understand that you have war, but stop with this antirussian propaganga, removing Russian art history. Shevchenko was born in Russian Empire, work in Russian language (nine novellas, a diary, and an AUTOBIOGRAPHY), only poetry in Ukrainian, so Russian language wirter and Ukrainian language poet as it was standing before you start with your propaganda Joaziela (talk) 14:26, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

You ignoring sources, in article. Read sources. Neptune777 (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

What sources??? He wrote most, including autobiography in Russian language, and yes sure he create poetry in Ukrainian language... He was born in Russian Empire, Ukraine was created in 1991. This are the facts in all sources. You and your Ukrainian buddies are making antiRussia propaganda in art and creating edition wars... stop it rally annoying. I understand there is a war, but why this dumb propaganda. Really facts don't care about your feelings. War is awful, but stop making art facts its victims. Its art, let it be art. With more and more lies and dumb obvious propaganda, people finally going to be tired of you

What next? If there going to be a Poland-Russia war, are you propagandist going to try to made Andrei Tarkovsky, Igor Stravinsky, or Dmitri Shostakovich more and more Polish that they were? I am even not trying to see the history of edits and Ukrainian propaganda are at Kazimierz Malewicz. Really stop dumb propaganda Joaziela (talk) 15:07, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Joaziela: Unless you want to be blocked you need to cease your personal attacks on other editors.  // Timothy :: talk  15:33, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@TimothyBlue I don't criticize person, but actions. And @Neptune777 is not the first one, there were also @Lute88 and his accounts, and later @Freerow2 and others. What exactly was personal attack? Just pointing out facts and also address my boredom with this propaganda actions. And mostly, lets not personally focused on me, but on facts. So the facts are again: most, including autobiography in Russian language, poetry in Ukrainian language and he was born at Russian Empire Joaziela (talk) 15:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Frederic Chopin was also born in the Russian empire. Would you call him a Russian composer?--Aristophile (talk) 20:53, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Lute88 (with his another alias "Aristophile", are you also @Neptune777 this account also start to get active after years of silence only to attack this article again), Chopin compose music, if he was writing songs (with lyrics) in Russian language than maybe, but he compose, it not as easy as with writers. From Chopin letters written in Polish (as in French) we know his political stance and for sure he was Polish. Joseph Conrad also was born in then Russian Empire, but because he create in Polish and English he is known as "Polish-British writer". Would you also call his Ukrainian writer? Because he was born in Berdychiv, now for 30 years on territory of Ukraine, but for most of history few centuries Polish.

Ukraine for most of history mean border region between Poland and Russia (its even in its name), and Ukraine it self was created in 1991, so don't go to far naming anybody born at its modern terrain Ukrainian. And for very hypothetical situation even if someone is born after 1991 (to make it easy he wasn't Soviet) on Ukrainian territory and going to create poetry in Ukrainian, literature in Russian and songs in Polish, he is going to be Ukraine language poet, Russian language writer and Polish language songwriter. Joaziela (talk) 23:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Stop trying to claim anything you can as russian. This is a form of aggression and perpetuates crimes of the past. Freerow2 (talk) 01:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Let's keep it to facts not emotions, don't make art political. The facts are that only his poetry is in Ukrainian language and he born on territory that for 32 years its known as Ukraine country. All his writing including autobiography was in Russian language and he was born on terrain of Russian Empire (previously west (right) bank of Dniepr was known as Poland). Those are historical facts, what kind of aggression and crime had he done because he speaks and write Russian? What crime are committing Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Nabokov, Zamyatin, Solzhenitsyn? Is just reading Russian authors is now a hate speech and "perpetuates crimes"? Or maybe even speaking Russian is already aggression? (Bad and sad news for you: almost half of people living in Ukraine on east Dniepro bank only speak Russian not Ukrainian). Stop this emotional bs, calling it a personal attacks or aggression. Those are facts, and its pity that simple facts are making you sad, but this doesn't change facts. Joaziela (talk) 09:45, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

His Russian writings are not that sighnificant. His Ukrainian writings are ICONIC. You'll never get WP:CONSENSUS for your position.

Also - Belgian writers who write in French are always Belgian. --Aristophile (talk) 14:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Try to call Chopin a Russian composer. He was a Russian national/citizen/subject. See where that would take you.--Aristophile (talk) 18:09, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

you missed it because Chopin was born in Napoleonic Poland, so French, but there are some his letters in Polish, witnesses etc that he identify Polish, but if he Chopin except compose write novel in Russian, he would be "Russian language writer from Poland", Shevchenko write his own AUTObiography in Russian, so he sefidentifiyng as Russian language writter. His poetry was in Ukrainian so he "Ukrainian language poet", and because right national term for that time is Ruthenian because you could not use 20century terms for historical figures. Nobody (at least me) is saying he was Russian, he just write all except poetry in Russian. So he was "Ruthenian Ukrainian-language poet and Russian-language writter ~~

in Belgium there are also 2 languages, in north Flanders- Flemish/Dutch and south Wallonia: Walloon/French, but there is no Belgian language. Same as Ukrainian on west and Russian in east of Ukraine.

So if Belgian made poetry in French and write novel in Dutch he would be "Belgian French language poet and Flemish writer". Shevchenko create poetry in Ukrainian, all writing in Russian including autobiography. Subject of Russian Empire and because Ukrainian is 20century term also Ruthenian, i hope its a good compromise and it would finish this nationalist edition war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leocadii (talk • contribs) 17:14, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

References

I intend to get the article to GA, and will start (as I usually do) by checking and organising the references and cutting back unneeded information. As the References section is in a complete mess, I'll be bold and rebuild it using the Harvard referencing system. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)