Talk:Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor

Correction of translation

Aha.n does not mean 'Then I', but rather, 'then'. Edited accordingly. 212.134.155.210 (talk) 05:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)Nefertum.

The edit below appears to be Rktect's personal translation

Rktect edited my section line to read The transliteration below is from Stephen Fryer -- which I assume is correct, but as it didn't say so in the article I added this section hoping for an explanation. This sort of redacting of another editor is definitely against our guidelines, so I am undoing it. I'm sure Fryer is a very nice person and probably knows a lot about Egyptology. He describes himself here [1] as someone who has worked with computers for over a decade and whose interests include music (I play classical guitar, piano, harpsichord, and recorder with varying degrees of skill), Egyptology (especially the Ancient Egyptian language), gardening (when I have time), reading (science fiction and fantasy - when I don't need to be reading technical stuff). However, that does not make him a reliable source for this article and I am sure that we can find real Egyptologists to use. dougweller (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Dd.in Smsw iqr wDA ib=k HAt-a mk pH.n=n Xnw Ssp xrpw Hw mnit HAt.t rdi.t Hr tA rdi Hknw dwA(.w) nTr s nb Hr Hpt sn.nw=f iswt=(t)n ii.t(i) ad.t(i) nn nhw n mSa.w=n pH.n=n pH.wy wAwAt sn.n=n snmwt mk rf n ii=(wy)n m Htp tA=n pH=(wy)n sw sDm rk n=i HAt-a ink Sw HAw ia(i) tw imi mw Hr Dba.w=k ix wSb=k wSd.t=k mdw=k n nsw ib=k m-a=k wSb=k nn nitit iw r n s n Hm=f sw iw mdw=f di=f TAm n=f Hr ir=k m xr.t ib=k s.wrd pw Dd n=k sDd=i rf n=k mitt iry xpr(.w) m-a=i Ds=i Sm=kwi r biA n ity hA(i)=kwi r wAD-wr m dpt nt mH 120 m Aw=s mH 40 m wsx=s sqd(.w) 120 im=s m stp n kmt mA=sn pt mA=sn tA makA-ib=sn r mA(i).w sr=sn Da n ii.t nSny n xpr.t=f Da pr(=w) iw=n m wAD-wr tp-a sAH=n tA fA(i).t TAw ir(i)=f wHmyt nwyt im=f nt mH 8

in xt HH n=i s

Speech of an excellent follower: May your heart prosper, my lord. Behold, we have reached home. The mallet having been taken, the mooring post is driven in. The bow-rope having been placed on land, thanksgiving and praise to god are given. Everyone is embracing his companions. Our crew returned safely; there was no loss to our army. We have reached the end of Wawat; we have passed Senmut. Behold, we have come in peace, our land we have reached. Listen to me, O lord, I am free of excess. Wash yourself, give water to your hands, so that you may answer when you are addressed and may speak to the king sensibly, (lit. your heart in your handâ) and may answer without stammering. A manâs mouth rescues him. He speaks and causes one to show indulgence. (lit. causes that he veil the face.) Do as you wish; it is wearying to talk to you. Nevertheless, let me tell you the like thereof, it having happened to me, myself. I was going to the mine of the king. I went down to the sea in a ship of one hundred twenty cubits in length and forty cubits in width. One hundred twenty sailors were in it of the choicest of Egypt. Whether they looked at the sky or they looked at the land, their hearts were braver than lions. They could foretell a storm before it came, foul weather before it occurred. (lit. They foretell a storm, [t] not having come, foul weather, [it] not having occurred. ) The storm came while we were on the sea, before we approached the land. While we were sailing it made a continuous howling, raising a wind. Waves were in it of eight cubits. A piece of wood struck it for me.

aHa.n dpt mt(=t) ntyw im=s n sp wa im aHa.n=i rdi=kwi r iw in wAw n wAD-wr ir(i).n=i hrw 3 in xt HH n=i s aHa.n dpt mt(=t) ntyw im=s n sp wa im aHa.n=i rdi=kwi r iw in wAw n wAD-wr ir(i).n=i hrw 3 wa=kwi ib=i m sn.nw=i sDr=kwi m Xnw n kAp n xt qni.n=i Swyt aHa.n dwn.n=i rd.wy=i r rx di.t=i m r=i gm.n=i dAb.w iArrt im iAq.t nb.t Sps.t kAw im Hna nqwt Ssp.t mi ir.t=s rm.w im Hna Apd.w nn ntt nn st m Xnw=f

aHa.n ssA.n(=i) wi rdi.n=i r tA n wr Hr a.wy=i Sd(i)t=i DA s.xpr.n=i xt ir(i).n=i sb n sDt n nTr.w

aHa.n sDm.n=i xrw qri ib(i)=kwi wAw pw n wAD-wr xt.w Hr gmgm tA Hr mnmn kf.n=i Hr=i gm.n=i HfAw pw iw=f m ii.t n sw mH 30 xbsw=f wr=s r mH 2 ha.w=f sxr.w m nbw in(H).wy.fy m xsbd mAa arq sw r xnt iw wp.n=f r=f r=i iw=i Hr Xt=i m-bAH=f Dd=f n=i nm in(i) tw (sp 2) nDs nm in(i) tw ir wdf=k m

Then I was cast (lit. placed) upon an island by a wave of the sea. I spent three days alone(lit. I made three days, I being alone. ), my heart as my only companion. (lit. my heart as my second. ) Resting in the shelter of a tree (lit. interior of a hut of wood), I embraced the shade.

Then I stretched out my legs to now what I could place in my mouth. I found figs and grapes there. Leeks were ruler there. Sycamore figs were there together with notched Sycamore figs. Cucumbers were there as though cultivated. Fish ere there together with birds. There was nothing that was not within it.

Then I satisfied myself and I laced some of it on the ground because it was too much upon my hands. I took a fire drill and made fire and made a sacrifice. (lit. a perishing in the flame of the gods) Then I heard the voice of a storm. I thought that It was a wave of the sea. Trees broke and the earth shook. I uncovered my face and found that it was a snake that was coming. It was thirty cubits long. His beard, it was greater than two cubits long. His body was overlaid with gold. His eyebrows were real lapis lazuli. He was bent up in front. He opened his mouth to me while I was on my belly in his presence. He said to me, "Who brought you? (repeat twice), commoner, who brought you?". If you fail to tell me who brought you to this island I will cause you to know yourself, you being as ashes having become as one who is not seen.

Dd n=i in(i) tw r iw pn rdi=i rx=k tw iw=k m ss xpr.t(i) m nty n mA.t=f iw mdw=k n=i nn wi Hr sDm st iw=i m-bAH=k xm.n(=i) wi aHa.n rdi=f wi m r=f iT(i)=f wi r st=f nt snDm wAH=f wi nn dmi.t=i wDA=kwi nn iT.t im=i iw wp.n=f r=f r=i iw=i Hr Xt=i m-bAH=f aHa.n

Dd.n=f n=i nm in(i) tw (sp 2) nDs nm in(i) tw r iw pn n wAD-wr nty gs(.wy)=fy m nwy aHa.n wSb.n=i n=f st a.wy=i xAm m-bAH=f

Dd=i n=f ink pw hA(i)=kwi r biA m wpw.t ity m dpt nt mH 120 m Aw=s mH 40 m wsx=s sqd(.w) 120 im=s m stp n kmt mA=sn pt mA=sn tA makA-ib=sn r mA(i).w sr=sn Da n ii.t=f nSny n xpr.t=f Da pr(=w) iw=n m wAD-wr tp-a sAH=n tA fA(i).t TAw ir(i)=f wHmy

nwyt im=f nt mH 8 in xt H(w)H n=i s(y) aHa.n dpt mt=t ntyw im=s n sp wa im Hr-xw=i mk wi r gs=k aHa.n in(i)=kwi r iw pn n wAw n wAD-wr Dd.in=f n=i m snD m (sp 2) nDs m Atw Hr=k pH.n=k wi mk nTr rdi.n=f anx=k in(i).n=f tw r iw pn n kA

You are speaking to me, but I do not hear it. I am in your presence but I am ignorant of myself. Then he placed me in his mouth and took me to his dwelling (lit. place of happiness) and set me down untouched, I being uninjured, nothing being taken from me. He opened his mouth to me while I was on my belly in his presence. Then he said to me, "Who has brought you (repeat twice), commoner?" "Who has brought you to this island in the sea whose sides are in the water?" Then I answered him this, my arms bent in respect in his presence. I said to him, "I was going to the mine of the king in a ship of one hundred twenty cubits in length and forty cubits in width. "One hundred twenty sailors were in it of the choicest of Egypt. Whether they looked at the sky or whether they looked at land, their hearts were braver than lions. They could foretell a storm before it came, foul weather before it occurred. (lit. They foretell a storm, (it) not having come, foul weather, it not having occurred. )Every one of them, his heart was braver, his arm stronger, than his companions. There was none ignorant in their midst. The storm came while we were on the sea, before we approached the land. While we were sailing it made a continuous howling. Waves were in it of eight cubits. A piece of wood struck it for me. Then the boat died and of those in it not one remained therein, except me. Behold, I am at your side. Then I was cast (lit. placed) upon this island by a wave of the sea. He said to me, "Do not fear, do not fear, commoner. "Donât blanch your face since you have reached me. Behold, it is god who caused you to live, he brought you to this island of ka

nn ntt nn st m Xnw=f iw=f mH Xr nfr.(w)t nb.t mk tw r ir.t Abd Hr Abd r km.t=k Abd 4 m Xnw n iw pn iw dp.t r ii.t sqd.w im=s rx(.w) n=k Sm=k Hna=sn r Xnw mt=k m niwt=k rS wy sDd dpt n=f sni xt mr sDd=i rf n=k mitt iry xpr.w m iw pn wn=i im=f Hna sn.w=i Xrd.w m qAb=sn km.n=n

HfAw 75 m msw=i Hna sn.w=i nn sHA=i nk sA.t ktt in.t n=i m sSA aHa.n sbA hA.w pr.n nA m xt m a=f xpr.n r=s nn wi Hna Am ny nn wi m Hr-ib=sn aHa.n=i mt=kwi n sn gm.n=i st m XAy.t wa.t ir qn{n}=k dAr ib=k mH=k qni=k m Xrd.w=k sn=k Hm.t=k mA=k pr=k nfr st r xt nb.t pH=k Xnw wn=k im=f m qAb n sn.w=k wn=k rf dmA=kwi Ht Xt=i dmi.n=i sAtw m-bAH=f

There is nothing that is not within it; it is filled with all good things. Behold you shall do month upon month until you complete four months from home on this island. A ship will come from home with sailors in it whom you know. You will go home with them and you will die in your city. Happy is he who tells what he has tasted, a painful thing having passed. by. Let me tell you the like there of which occurred on this island in which I was on it with my brothers, and children were in the midst of them. We totaled seventy-five snakes my children together with my brothers; I will not mention to you a little daughter whom I had obtained by prayer. Then a star fell, and these went up in flame because of it. It happened that I was not with them when they burned. I was not among them. I was dead to them (ÎI could have died for themâ?) when I found them a heap of corpses alltogether. If you are strong, subduing your heart, you will fill your embraces with your children you will kiss your wife, you will see your house. It is more beautiful than anythingâ. You will reach the residence (homeland) in which you were in it together with your companions. Having stretched out on my belly, I touched the ground in his presence.

Dd=i rf n=k sDd=i bAw=k n ity di=i sSA=f m aA=k di=i in.t n=k ibi Hknw iwdnb XsAyt snTr n gs-pr.w sHtp.w nTr nb im=f

sDd=i rf xpr.t Hr=i m mA=tn m bA.w=k dwA-nTr tw n=k m niwt xft Hr qnb.wt tA r Dr=f sft=i n=k iw.w m sb n sDt wSn.n=i n=k Apd.w di=i in.t n=k Haw Atp.w Xr Spss nb n km.t mi ir.t n nTr mrr=i rmT.w m tA wA n rx sw rmT.w

aHa.n sbt.n=f im=i m nn Dd.n=i m nf m ib=f

Dd=f n=i n wr.n=k antiw xpr.t nb snTr ink is HqA pwn.t antiw n=i im sw Hknw pf Dd.n=k in.t=f bw pw wr n iw pn xpr is iwd=k tw r st tn n sp mA=k iw pn xpr m nwy

aHa.n dpt tf ii.t(i) mi sr.t.n=f xnt aHa.n Sm=kwi rdi.n wi Hr xt qA siA.n=i ntyw m Xnw=s aHa.n Sm=kwi r smit st gm.n=i sw rx st aHa.n Dd.n=f n=i snb=t(i) (sp 2) nDs r pr=k mA=k Xrd.w=k imi rn=i nfr m niwt=k mk Xr.wt=i pw im=k

I will speak of you, I will Relate your power to the king, I will cause him to know of your greatness. I will cause to be brought to you laudanum heknu oil, yudenbu, hesayt spice, incense of(temples ?) which pleases all of the gods in it. I will relate what has happened to me, what I saw of his (sic) power. One will praise god for you in the city before the magistrates of the entire land. I will slaughter for you bulls as sacrifices. I will offer to you fowl. I will cause to be sent to you ships loaded with the provisions of every town in Egypt, as is done for a god who loves a people in a distant land not known to the people. Then he laughed at me for what I said was foolishness to him. (lit. Î in his hearts) He said to me, "You are not rich in myrrh being an owner of incenseâ It is I who am the lord of Punt and the myrrh, it belongs to me. And the incense that you spoke of bringing, it is abundant on this island. When it happens that you leave this place, It will not occur that you will see this island again, it having become water. Then that boat came like what he had predicted before hand. Then I went and placed myself in a high tree and I recognized those in it. Having gone to report it, I found that he knew it. Then he said to me,

"Health, (repeat twice), commoner, to your house so that you may see your children. ""Make my name good in your town, that is my due from you.

aHa.n rdi.n(=i) wi Hr Xt=i a.wy=i HAm m-bAH=f

aHa.n rdi.n=f n=i sb.wt m antiw Hknw iwdnb XsAyt ti Sps

SAas msdm.t sdw nw mama mrry.wt aA.t n.t snTr nDHyt n Ab.w Tsm. w gwf.w kyw.w Spss nb nfr

aHa.n Atp.n=i st r dpt tn xpr.n rdi.t wi Hr Xt=i r dwA-nTr n=f

aHa.n Dd.n=f n=i mk tw r spr r Xnw n abd 2 mH=k qni=k m Xrd.w=k rnpy=k m Xny qrst=k

aHa.n hA(i)=kwi r mryt m hA.w dpt tn aHa.n=i Hr iAS n mSa.w nty m dpt tn rdi.n=i Hknw Hr mryt n nb n iw pn ntyw im=s r mitt iry na.t pw ir.n=n m xd r Xnw n ity spr.n=n r Xnw Hr Abd 2 mi Dd.t.n=f nb.t

aHa.n aq=kwi Hr ity ms.n=i n=f in.w pn in.n=i m Xnw n iw pn aHa.n dwA-nTr.n=f n=i xft Hr qnb.wt tA r Dr=f aHa.n rdi=kwi r Smsw sAH=kwi m tp rmT.w 200 mA wi r-sA sAH tA r-sA mA=i dpt.n=i sDm rk n r=i mk nfr sDm n rmT.w

aHa.n Dd.n=f n=i m ir iqr Xnms in-m rdi.t mw n Apd HD-tA n sft=f dwA iw=f pw HAt=f r pH(.wy)=fy mi gmyt m sS m mDAt sS iqr n Dba.w=f imny sA imny-aA anx(=w) (w)D(A=w) s(nb=w)

"Then I placed myself upon my belly my arms bent in respect before him. Then he gave to me a quantitiy of myrrh, heknu oil, laudanum, hesayt spice, tishpes spice, perfume, eye-paint, giraffes tails, great lumps of incense, elephants tusks, greyhounds, monkeys, baboons and all kinds of precious things. Then I loaded them upon this boat. It happened as I placed myself on my belly to give thanks to him that he said to me, "Behold, you will approach home in two months. ""You will be full, you will embrace your children, you will be young in the home where you will be buried. "Then I went down to the river bank in the neighborhood of this boat. Then I called to the sailors who were in this boat. I gave praise upon the bank to the lord of this land, and those in it did likewise. It was a sailing which we did downstream to the palace of the king.We approached the

residence after two months which he had said completely. Then I entered in before the sovereign and I brought to him the gifts which I had brought out of this island. Then he gave praise to me before the magistrates of the land to its ends. Then I was made a follower and I was endowed with two hundred people. See me after I returned to the land after I saw what I tasted. Listen to my mouth; it is good for people to listen. Then he said to me, "Donât continue my excellent friend. Does one give water to a goose at dawn thatwill be slaughtered during the morning. "It is done from its beginning to its end, as it was found in writing, a scribe excellent with his fingers, Imenyâs son Imena

Deletion of external links

Some rather informative external links have been deleted;

• English translation by W. M. Flinders Petrie
• Hieratic text and hieroglyphic transcription of the tale

I realise this is an ongoing work-in-progress, but I'd rather they were left in place until replacements become available. Neither of the links' removal seems justified. I can't see any where in WP:EL that says links from a computer specialist are suspect -- surely we should judge a link's merit by its content, not its author? As for the claim that Petrie's translations seems suspect, there are a number of variants I've seen. Finding a canonical source might not be straightforward. Why not just append a warning to the link, saying that various translations differ?--Michael C. Price ^talk 14:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I Agree I will restore it and possibly add more references and some wikification Rktect (talk)

Ok, I will leave them there until I can find replacements. But WP:ELNO is very clear that Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority (this exception is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies). And there is nothing to suggest that Fryer is a relevant specialist. I note that Rktect has just managed to delete the only specific references that were in the article, the ones I just added. We do need to make it clear if and why a link to a translation differs from the description in the article. What we do not need in the article is all the translation stuff itself, that's for a synopsis and links to translations, the article should be about the tale - which I was doing until Rktect deleted my edits. dougweller (talk) 15:11, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

And Rktect, no major changes had been made to this article since what appears to be your personal translation added to it in July 2007. As there was no major ongoing editing, there was no reason to discuss first. dougweller (talk) 15:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Hm, interesting. Fryer's translation is on the EEF list [2] - as is Nederhof's, another computer bod it seems. I like the EEF stuff, so... dougweller (talk) 17:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Old version & removal of referenced material today

The old version was basically a not very accurate or detailed synopsis plus an editor's translation, with some comments on it's being a castaway's tale (which I guess it is from one perspective but I doubt it was written from that perspective and it is much more than that), someone's speculation (yours, Rktect?) that it was some sort of exercise, etc. It had (and at the moment has) no commentary or analysis about things such as its being a tale within a tale within a tale, the repetitions, etc., no explanation that there are some differences in translation (which I hasten to point out is not our job to explain). My attempt to rectify this was immediately reverted with no explanation, despite the fact that no serious work has been done on this article for a long time and no discussion on the talk page. My changes didn't need discussing first, they were pretty obviously a net gain (the article should not have the entire story in any case, and certainly not an editor's translation). The reversion should have been discussed, and I am asking that any attempts to revert any further addition of referenced analysis etc also be discussed. Removing OR is one thing and doesn't need discussion, removing properly referenced material, particularly when the article has been dormant, normally should be unless there has already been a consensus on the talk page by several editors that it is inappropriate. Thanks. dougweller (talk) 19:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The Stephen Freyer hieratic version with translation is a valuable resource. Some of us who enjoy these languages and like to study them like to see both transliteration and translation. If you are going to edit things based on guesses and speculations without yourself consulting the references I'm at a loss to explain how you think you know what you are doing or why you think its better with the references, especially those to Gardiner, removed Rktect (talk) 02:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Just tell me what page Gardiner discusses the tale. Before your comment above I'd revised my comments on Freyer, although I'm still not entirely happy, thus the Blackman link. I did not remove the Freyer version when I edited last night, and I've added another this am. I also removed some inappropriate editorial comment. dougweller (talk) 06:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I restored Stephen Freyers comments on the Tale as well as the Gardiner references which tell you where he discusses the words that are in it. The words are discussed letter by letter and word by word and phrase by phrase in the Gardiner numbers which refer to the letters, in the word lists which refer to the words and in the § numbers which discuss the composition. In further sections entire passages are cited as part of the vocabulary lessons. Because The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor is in hieratic it helps to have Freyers discussion and notes. Because its Early it helps to have Loprieno. Loprieno, "Ancient Egyptian", uses many passages from the Shipwrecked Sailor in Chapter 4 p 90 discussing negative verbal formats, Chapter 5 pp 103-143 to discuss nominal syntax, Chapter 6 pp 144-182 to discuss adverbial syntax and in chapter 7 pp183-236 to discuss verbal syntax. As for example (15.) Sh.S (73-75)"You speak to me but I am not hearing it.", or (19.)"Then he placed me in his mouth" (22.) "Then I was brought to the island by a wave of the sea", (25.) "Then he gave me water and boiled for me milk" (26.)"A man's mouth saves him, his speech causes him to be forgiven, that the face be veiled for him" all in discussion of how the sDmf form sets forth the rythm of narration.(30.) Look we have arrived in peace, our land we have reached it." Rktect (talk) 12:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

You reverted some good referenced text with no explanation. The new version has a much better summary and a start at some commentary. I don't want to be rude, but your version may have made sense to you because you wrote it, but it wasn't encyclopedic. You even included a question -'which is preferable'. You mention Loprieno above but he has never been mentioned in the article, were you under the impression he was? Loprieno has some useful comments about the fact that the sailor isn't named (something others point out) and his suggestion that the multiple levels of meaning may mean it was aimed at a variety of audiences. I am not at all sure it is appropriate for the article to discuss negative verbal formats unless there is a brief referenced note something like 'the use of negative verbal formats....' giving some analysis. Rhythm of narration, fine, there is a case for putting something about that in. But let's get the body of the article right before starting to add stuff about grammar, and we certainly don't need huge chunks of translation, that is what we have links, etc. for. Even with a lot more to be done, the article is already more readable and tells the average reader more about the Tale than the earlier versions did. dougweller (talk) 13:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

See above. Maybe it makes sense for you not to change things you haven't discussed first. You are corrct that I haven't mentioned Loprieno before but I have been trying to keep it simple. For someone who doesn't understand Gardiner, Faulkner, Allen thouroughly going into Loprieno is like going from Newtonian relativity (basically still alchemy) to modern quantum physics. I appreciate your editing is somewhat uninformed as regards standard references and sources, which are valuable here and which are not, but are you really ready to discuss the negative verbal syntax before you know what the sDmf forms are? The reason I put the sample translation section in was so I would have someplace to hang those those references. I almost feel like I'm talking to you in sign language because we just don't have the same vocabulary hereRktect (talk) 15:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

We clearly don't have the same vocabulary. I'm concerned with writing a good article according to WP policies and guidelines which avoids OR and synthesis, and you and I don't agree on what those words mean. And our readers really should not have to understand Gardiner, Faulkner, and Allen to understand the article. As it stood before, they did (and even that might not have been enough). It was chaotic and I do not believe the average reader would have garnered from it what you wanted them to. My version at least is comprehensible. We need a lead, a synopsis (which didn't properly exist before) and a section on commentary/analysis. We need to mention that translations differ and if we can find sources that discuss the reasons, include those (but not our own commentary on differing translations). If it is really important to mention sDmf forms then you need to explain why. What concerns me is the possbility that you might think that the recognised translations need improving (fine, think that) and try to add your improvements to the article. I'm sure you are tempted, but it's a temptation you need to resist. dougweller (talk) 17:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Papyrus Leningrad was written during the Middle Kingdom, probably during the early 12th Dynasty.

How do you know its "early" 12th Dynasty, archaeology suggests that while there were voyages to the kings mine across the Red Sea, as early as the 4th dynasty the ports which had quays big enough to take a ship of 120 cubits were not established until a time closer to the end of the 12th dynasty.

Amenemhat II Amenemhat III

The papyrus contains the Story of the Shipwrecked Sailor, a fabulous tale of adventure which may be an ancestor of the story of Sinbad in the Arabian Nights. A translation is available in Ancient Egyptian Literature, vol.1 by Miriam Lichtheim. The hieroglyphic text is available in Egyptian Readingbook by Adriaan deBuck, and also (with a few omissions) is presented and used as reading material in the course of Middle Egyptian Grammar by James Hoch.

Ancient Egyptian Literature Vol 1. Where is the translation? The book incluses biographical inscriptions, royal inscriptions, two pseudpigraphia, Hymns and Lamatations, Demotic Literature, and indexes but no hieratic so far as I can see.

Rktect (talk) 16:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The synopsis and commentary are bunk. Its sort of like the sunday school version. Please use Loprieno for that rather than Baines, and use Gardiner with some text to illustrate what you are talking about Rktect (talk) 16:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Where you claim some translations have 120 others have 150 crew, why not see if you can find that passage in the text above and have a look for yourself at what it says, then maybe delete the unnecessary confusion you are adding Where your translator says its talking about a "snake" have a look at the glyph involved, then refer to Gardiner, Faulkner and Loprieno. See if they tell you anything that might help you decide whether the syntax and the grammatic markers tell you whether the word is used as a noun or a verb and then maybe referrence that in. I'm not saying you have to do anything OR, just add the comment from the verifiable sources.Rktect (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

You know, even on the talk page you shouldn't be speculating about when it was written, we simply use reliable sources. As for snake, that is what a number of translations have, some have serpent, if you want something else added, find a source, don't try to read it yourself. Why are we discussing looking at the translations that differ between 120 and 150, if you have a source that explains that, great, otherwise it's material for another venue, not here. Maybe you know too much (and too little) to be editing this article. Do you want to suggest a better synopsis (but not longer please) here? dougweller (talk) 17:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it a reliable source if it can't get its facts straight?

As for snake; Gardiner, Faulkner and Loprieno are considered authoritative on how it should be read. Freyer, Hoch and Allen are ok but not quite in the same leauge because they specialise in different areas. Freyer is at least partially working from Hoch.

Loprieno section 4.4 Nominal morphology p 55-56 "the ending *-u is still preserved though functionally reinterpreted. *hupraw "form" <hf3w>=:*haf3aw snake,... and by the vocalizationof the adjectives derived from the nouns by means of the pattern known as nisbation from the Arabic noun nisba "relation": a morphem -j is affixed to the genitive of the noun in order to derive the corresponding adjective ...p 62 "In thw word hf3w */hafRAW/ and generally in the a stem...

Or, in plain English, the noun "snake" loses its plural develops a nisbation and becomes an adjective "snaky" or hf3t crawling posture.

See Det snake (Sh,S.61. hf3w 'serpent' I14, possibly also det worm, but it is doubtful if ddft ever had that usually attributed meaning I15 hf3w - Faulkner p 168 hf range of hills, hf3w snake, hf3t

intestinal worm, hf3t crawling posture. In hiero what you have for Sh,S.61 is a glyph for snake hf3w det snake on p. 5 the bot of the 11th column read right to left and top to bot 69.39.110.136 (talk) 20:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Rktect, you are editing while logged out. So give us some quotes from Gardiner, Faulkner and Loprieno where they translate the Tale and don't use the noun snake. Their translations of the Tale, not you using them in some way. dougweller (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Loprieno the non specific hf3w "a serpent" which is the predicate of a pw-sentence functioning as object to the VP is resumed by the subject pronoun in the virtual relative clause jww=fm jj.t "which was coming" (75) Sh.S 61-62 gmj.n= jhf3w pw jw=fm jj.t "Which was coming".

There are a couple of observations I would make here. That particular I15 snake

is reduplicated much like the Z2 plural

. Gardiner discuses verbs in §267-292 in § 292 he points out that denominative verbs are verbs formed from nouns. ie; snake, to snake. reduplication is addressed in §274. The literal value of "which was coming" is "which was crawling". Rktect (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Early 12th dynasty?

Although I didn't suggest that, the sources I have read all say Middle Kingdom, and it really isn't relevant when the Egyptians were capable of doing what. All we should be doing is report what our sources have to say about when it was probably written. dougweller (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I just raise it as a question about the verifiability of your source. I would suggest choosing sources that don't provide questionable comments that can't be verified. Rktect (talk) 19:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Verifiability of a source means that you can check the source to make sure it says what the editor says it says. This is one of the reasons page numbers are required. I'm not sure what source you are referring to that mentions early 12th dynasty but in any case that wasn't in the article. If a source meets WP:RS we don't need to verify everything it says. dougweller (talk) 19:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

If you don't mind I'd like to put the Stephen Freyer material back, along with the Gardiner and possibly add some of the Loprieno. 69.39.110.136 (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

His name is Fryer, you keep spelling it Freyer. And you definitely can't use a non-Egyptologist as a source in the article. In any case, start a new section here as don't know what sort of context you plan. And so far as I can tell, Fryer wasn't mentioned in the article before, just the link. Unless you used him and didn't reference him. dougweller (talk) 21:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm restoring some of the reference work we discussed from Gardiner, Faulkner, Loprieno and adding some additional notes from the discussion above. I'm also adding a little bit of transliteration to accompany the translation so you can see what the words look like in Egyptian and in English using Freyers transliteration.

Resources

This looks so interesting I've ordered the book [3]. dougweller (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

facts-fiction

E. A. Wallis Budge wrote-"Under the heading of this chapter may well be included the Story of the Shipwrecked Traveller. The text of this remarkable story is written in the hieratic character upon a roll of papyrus, which is preserved in the Imperial Library at St. Petersburg. It is probable that a layer of facts underlies the story, but the form in which we have it justifies us in assigning to it a place among the fairy stories of Ancient Egypt." (excert taken from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15932/15932-h/15932-h.htm#Pg_207)[reference for change from account to story -(first sentence) Drift chambers (talk) 16:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Last line of synopsis unclear

The tale ends with the master telling the narrator, "Do not make the excellent (that is, do not act arrogant) my friend; why give water to a goose (literally, bird) at dawn before its slaughtering in the morning?"

By this point in the synopsis, the roles have changed three times. Is the master the king, the attendant (who was the sailor in the bulk of the story), or the sailor being told the story by the attendant?

104.7.12.222 (talk) 18:28, 27 February 2017 (UTC)