Talk:Taking the piss

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Taking the piss article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

This article was nominated for deletion on 24 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

England Low‑importance

	England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

English Language Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject English Language, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the English language on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.English LanguageWikipedia:WikiProject English LanguageTemplate:WikiProject English LanguageEnglish Language articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Ireland Low‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Commonwealth

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Commonwealth, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Commonwealth of Nations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CommonwealthWikipedia:WikiProject CommonwealthTemplate:WikiProject CommonwealthCommonwealth articles

Other potential origins

There are some other potential commercial uses of urine that could be related to its 'theft' being viewed in a negative manner.

During wars, collection of urine for the production of nitrates (explosives) has been considered or implemented (https://hackaday.com/2015/06/15/gunpowder-from-urine-fighting-a-gorn/). An example is the Napoleonic wars (Page 140, Soil Microbiology and Biochemistry, Eldor A Paul); France was unable to import the saltpeter needed to make gunpowder, so started producing it via saltpeter beds watered with urine to provide a nitrogen source (~1800).

There are a multitude of references to this in relation to other wars:

"Did you know ... women used to collect their urine to help make gunpowder?" http://popupperdiem.tumblr.com/post/59007013080/did-you-know-women-used-to-collect-their-urine

“That when a lady lifts her skirt, she shoots a horrid yankee.” The story of confederate women’s urine and the manufacture of gunpowder. https://civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com/12836/that-when-a-lady-lifts-her-skirt-she-shoots-a-horrid-yankee-the-story-of-confederate-womens-urine-and-the-manufacture-of-gunpowder

I can't find the reference but I think Britain considered doing something similar during one or both of the world wars.

There is another war based reference from the first world war (~1915) related to British soldiers being instructed to soak socks with urine and use them as improvised gas masks.

"World War One: Scientist John Haldane tested gas on himself" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25843294

And another, in that British soldiers had adopted the Vickers machine gun (~1912) and were using it during the first world war. It had a water cooled barrel, which would overheat when it ran out of water. So they'd pee into the water jacket keep it cool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_machine_gun#Use

Yet another war related reference... during the second world war Britain was trying to produce penicillin to fight infections and discovered that some of the none metabolised penicillin could be recycled from the patient's urine. "We Used to Recycle Drugs From Patients’ Urine" http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/we-used-recycle-drugs-patients-urine-180953789/

Along a different theme, the original discovery of the element phosphorus was by boiling down urine and reacting it with carbon. Urine contains phosphates, which are reduced to phosphorus when heated with carbon; this was discovered by Hennig Brand, a German alchemist, 1630 – c. 1692 or c. 1710 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennig_Brand). He was originally searching for the philosopher's stone (something that can turn other things into gold). I would assume he figured urine may have something to do with that because it can be yellow / gold coloured the more dehydrated the person is. He would have had to collect a lot of urine to produce much phosphorus, as there's only 0.03 to 0.045 grams of phosphate per litre of urine. Interestingly, he used to prefer collecting urine from children because he thought it worked better. There is some scientific basis behind this as children tend to have more phosphate in their urine; 0.04 to 0.07 grams of phosphate per litre (Clinical laboratory tests - reference values http://www.royalcollege.ca/portal/page/portal/rc/common/documents/exams/normal_values_e.pdf). He must have gotten an entertaining surprise as the white phosphorus he'd have produced glows, smolders and can undergo spontaneous combustion on exposure to the air.

Another drug related reference (~1942) is from the US and comes from the production of premarin, an estrogen replacement therapy. The estrogen for premarin is extracted from the urine of pregnant horses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarin

Composting is another possibility; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrow_composting Composting quality is highly dependent on carbon to nitrogen ratios. It dates back to the Roman Empire; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost#History There was a large resurgence in home farming during the second world war in the form of allotments and the homefront; http://www.shropshireremembers.org.uk/digging-home-front-allotments/

It seems unlikely it could have originated or been influenced much by the production of premarin in the US as it's not commonly used in the US as far as I'm aware and premarin, although close in time, seems to be after the appearance of the phrase in Britain. I'm also not sure if many people around Europa, outside of Britain, use the phrase; which would suggest it's unlikely to have originated from composting.

It's possibly come to mean someone is asking for or expecting a lot or too much as, like the production of phosphorus, the production of explosives and recovery of penicillin would require the collection of fairly vast quantities of piss. This is also possibly related to the fact that people in Britain were already strongly rationed during the second world war; e.g. pots and pans were being collected to turn into equipment http://thewartimekitchen.com/?p=278

There could be a connection between the latter and the phrases "wouldn't even have a pot to piss in" and "piss poor"; http://www.thisblewmymind.com/origin-piss-poor-popular-sayings/.

British Slang Expression?

The intro is not strictly true; TTP can have either meaning based on context i.e. "Joking about" or "swinging the lead/taking liberties" without the "out of" which is implied.

British Slang Expression?

I thought that "taking the piss" was a very Australian phrase, not used or even understood by most other english speaking nations. I certainly did not think that it was used at all in Britain, with "taking the mickey" the more common British expression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.64.214 (talk) 06:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'fraid not mate, have used it since I was a young 'un, and have seen in in newspapers and on television for just as long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.25.232 (talk) 14:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This Australian had been hearing it on English TV for many years before it was common in Australia. It eventually filtered through to Aust society and became common in everyday use, along with another UK phrase taking a slash. Format (talk) 04:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian usage

The Canadian military uses it, as well. We have various forums that British terms are used and absorbed into the Canadian culture. The Canadian Forces works closely and often with the British, Australian and NZ miliatries. Canada has a lot of British programming on CBC, Slice, BBC Canada and W Network, also. If you were to say "taking the piss" to an average Canadian let alone CF member, they would know what you were referring to, therefore, you could include Canada to your list.123.2.12.12 (talk) 18:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dictdef

As it stands, this is a dictionary definition. It needs to be expanded into an encyclopedia article (use of these terms in culture etc etc). --kingboyk 00:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it is clearly stated in the article that 'taking the mickey' is derived from 'taking the piss' why does the taking the piss link get redirected and not vice versa?

Ships taking the piss

I heard from someone that taking the piss came back in the times of ship trade. Rather than trade some luxurious items in the ship they'd transport piss and maybe crap out to sea. When they were asked what their cargo was they'd reply with some luxurious item however they soon found out and said to them "you're taking the piss".

Who or what is "mickey bliss"?

the subject. 68.123.141.33 18:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

taking the piss - gunpowder

The TV show "balderdash and piffle" decided the shipping connection was relevant with the "piss" being taken from London to the northern mill towns where it was used to soften the blankets in manufacture. I have always connected piss taking with the production of gun-powder - there must be s connection there? anyone?

Craig Battison

Article Tag

What's with the original research tag on the article? --Pavithran 04:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only one of the numerous proposed etymologies is cited. — The Storm Surfer 15:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who the hell is "mickey bliss"?

--58.105.28.25 11:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It say's clearly that it's rhyming slang so "Mickey Bliss" would be piss, in the same way that "Dog and bone" is the phone and "Frog and Toad" is the road. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.18.30 (talk) 06:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but who is Mickey Bliss? Why isn't it "take the Joey" or "take the Billy" out of someone, after Joey and Billy Bliss, who, presumably, are also entirely unknown? Maybe I just don't understand how Cockney rhyming slang works... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Tobek (talk • contribs) 10:37, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was probably just arbitrarily chosen; it originated as a way for felons to talk to each other in security.90.220.142.29 (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Taking the Mickey out

I can't cite any sources for this, other than my own experience, but I think the origins of "taking the piss" and "taking the Mickey" are more complicated than the article suggests.

I think both expressions refer to "fighting spirit", as in "He's getting my Mickey up," (also "getting my Irish up") and "He's full of piss and vinegar."

If that's correct, "Taking the Mickey (or piss) out" of somebody, is to deflate his or her spirit by poking fun at her or him.

--Jdcrutch (talk) 15:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This fits with the origin that I heard (but sadly cannot source): When men wake in the morning, they often have an erect penis caused, not by sexual stimulation, but by the pressure of the full bladder on the nerves in the pelvis, and the erection falls as soon as the bladder is emptied. Such a one may be described as "piss proud" - also used to describe one who is inordinately proud of a small matter, and in deflating (as Jdcrutch puts it) this pride, one is "taking the piss out of them". Philculmer (talk) 21:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from article

you will probably find that taking the piss was a term used by Irish laborers early in the Nth century for people who took buckets of urine (piss) from ale houses to sell to the explosive makers of that era, well rotted piss contains large amounts of ammonia perfect for making gunpowder go with a bigger bang —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.235.133.12 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 21 December 2008

Mc- for Irish?

I always thought Mc and Mac were common prefixes for the Scots, not the Irish. None of my Irish mates have a name starting with Mc/Mac. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.18.30 (talk) 06:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC) Although I have heard of the Irish being referred to as Micks before, mostly in insulting terms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.18.30 (talk) 06:43, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mc and Mac actually comes from Ireland. Mc (and the uncommon M) is just an abbreviation of Mac used by the Irish Gaels to denote a passing of name from a father. "O" is a disinctly Irish prefix used originally where the name came from the Grandfather. Scots are the descendants of invading Irish who mixed with the picts and others there in the early middle ages. The name of the Scots was taken from the inhabitants of Ireland known as Scotti. Dainamo (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it's saltpeter that's extracted from piss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.48.14.160 (talk) 14:33, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Who or whom is taking the piss?

The article should say up front how this is used, is it the subject or the object who is mocking/being mocked? 96.224.167.176 (talk) 19:38, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Alternative theories of origin"

"Theories" indeed. These shaggy dog stories hardly count as theories. Leaving aside the lack of any shred of evidence to support them, they don't even make logical sense. There should at least be some kind of warning that they're for entertainment value only. Flapdragon (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, upon reading the Alternative theory, I was left thinking 'are they taking the piss?' 92.239.188.163 (talk) 22:00, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't even make sense liguistically - even if the highly contrived situation they describe ever came about, you would say "you're taking piss" not "you're taking the piss". Somebody is definitely taking the piss. 86.20.66.253 (talk) 23:00, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not that the main theory is much better. Something that might have been just "taking out" (= either 'mimicking', or 'deflating' one 'full of themself') + a swearword for added pizzazz was transmogrified into a salty penis story... 46.186.33.6 (talk) 02:35, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Taking the piss. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Base form, or most common expression?

The base form of taking the piss is to take the piss, and normally an idiomatic expression would be listed under its base form in a dictionary (see wiktionary links). Otoh, in an encyclopedia (especially this one, with policies on due weight) I wonder whether that holds. Ngrams shows that taking is the most common inflectin, followed by take, took, takes, taken. Furthermore, since the article is about the term itself (as seen in the first sentence, the section titles, and the content), it is a case of WP:WORDSASWORDS and as such, the base form of the expression should be used. Mathglot (talk) 23:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Australia/New Zealand

"Taking the piss" Generally means having or trying to have advantage over someone else or group. When at a party or barbecue and alcoholic beverages were provided or contributed there would sometimes be someone who would literally take some of it away when they left. If caught they would be accused of "Taking the Piss" Piss being the colloquial term for alcoholic beverages. This is highly frowned upon in Australia and New Zealand.

163.47.238.23 (talk) 01:39, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]