This is an archive of past discussions about Taiwan. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
As for historical events, I think they are partly off topic from the article when here we only mention the events of the Republic of China with one of them even happened on the Mainland. I know Taiwan is currently ruled by the Republic of China, but after all, 99% of the territory it controls is just the island of Taiwan and today Taiwanese identity dominates the state. We should mention the prominent historical events of the island of Taiwan instead of just the Republic of China regime. Look at the article about South Korea, it does not only mention the historical events of the Republic of Korea. Same goes for articles about other countries, the issue is not just the current political regime. 113.185.47.66 (talk) 19:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
They are still important parts of Taiwan's history, this article is not just about the government and politics of the Republic of China. 113.185.47.66 (talk) 20:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
The parameter in the infobox is about the establishment of the country/nation/state. All the links you provide above are in the relevant history section.... in most cases as main see also link to articles under the headers of the relevant sections. Moxy🍁 20:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
The Republic of China is Taiwan, as this article proves. You should know that the government agencies and passport of the Republic of China today also use the word "Taiwan". 113.185.47.25 (talk) 21:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
The Republic of China still claims to be the sole representative of China in its constitution, so if we only focus on the current ruling state, why not bring up the important histories of all of China? 113.185.47.66 (talk) 20:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Again, this is not just the article about politics, but also about a place. If you follow your logic, all articles about sovereign nations in the world should only mention their current regimes. 113.185.47.25 (talk) 21:02, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Let's give an example of a Young Nation that I'm familiar with...Canada. Note how it doesn't list Indigenous nations or list colonial predecessors. It simply begins when the current nations independents/formation/creation. The article where this is covered is at History of Taiwan.... that does list many of the historical events you listed above. Moxy🍁 21:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
The thing is, this is an article about both Taiwan as a place and the regime that governs it. Even Canada only gained independence in 1931. Would you like me to list articles that don't just mention the current regimes? 113.185.47.25 (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Just to be clear..... You believe that Dutch Formosa is related to the establishment of the current country..... as in this is the beginning of self-government? Moxy🍁 22:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Just want to point out that the ROC carried over plenty of institutions from the Japanese Taiwan era, including the presidential office and other gov buildings, the name Kaohsiung, among others. Taiwan did not just appear out of thin air when the ROC arrived. In the same way that China had several other events before the establishment of the PRC, there is a strong argument here to revise the list here. Butterdiplomat (talk) 22:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Legally, the colonial regimes that the Netherlands and Spain established in Taiwan were just overseas territories, and the Tungning kingdom de facto had nothing to do with the former Ming Dynasty and its remnants (especially after the death of Koxinga). As for Japan, it is true that Taiwan was annexed as a domestic part of Japan. But nonetheless, I think the governments before the Republic of China were important in Taiwan's history. Italinoa (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
The Additional Articles sound innocuous (by design), but they were a constitutional change for Taiwan at least as significant as the two listed at Canada. Kanguole21:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I think they were important in Taiwan's history because they showed that the Republic of China government abandoned retaking the mainland by force and accepted to stay in the area under its control to wait for peaceful unification, paving the way for the indigenization and democratization of the regime. Italinoa (talk) 22:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
If you want to talk about "colonial", well, Taiwan is not yet legally independent as its official name is the "Republic of China" and its constitution still claims to be the sole representative of China, of course in reality the story is the opposite. That's why there are Taiwanese people who demand 100% independence don't like the DPP's vague style. Italinoa (talk) 23:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
It’s worthy to note that the article did contain the significant historical events within infobox. Until 17th January, an editor deleted all the contents before the establishment of the ROC, so this is not a new idea to extend the info box contents for Taiwan history. In this topic, Taiwan is defined as an individual geographical entity rather than the governing authority, so I consider that the IP user’s proposal is reasonable and discernible.
And I support the idea in certain conditions. If other nations' topic such as South Korea or Mongolia can trace its historical polities back to the Gojoseon or Mongol empire even Xiongnu (notwithstanding that the actual political or ethinical relations between these hisorical polities with modern states are also skeptical), so is the case for Taiwan. Sheherherhers (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
The sounds like a list of things that need to be fixed at other articles not implemented here in my view. Moxy🍁 22:30, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Maybe we should change the name of the article from "Taiwan" to "Republic of China" to keep them as they are, but I don't think this is a good idea. Italinoa (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Taiwanese passport If we accept the name of this article as "Taiwan", it proves that this article equates the Republic of China with the island of Taiwan, this equating is very common all over the world and especially in Taiwan itself. Even the information box in this article shows that the people of the Republic of China are "Taiwanese" and not "Chinese" or both. Today no one in Taiwan, including the Kuomintang (de facto), thinks that the ROC represents all of China, Taiwanese agree that the ROC as a sovereign country is Taiwan. Ma Ying-jeou once said: "Taiwan is our homeland and our country, the official name is the Republic of China, but the common name is of course Taiwan". He gave an example: "When a foreign person ask where you are from, he will say: I'm from the Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan; or I'm from Taiwan officially known as the Republic of China, this is very common". I heard that in 2020 Taiwan decided to drastically enlarge the size of the word "Taiwan" in English on the front cover of its passport while drastically reducing the prominence of the name "Republic of China" in English. Italinoa (talk) 10:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The best way I can conceptualize it, as I've articulated here before, is there's a presently a basic conflation between geography, political organization, and nationhood we simply have to accept and work with on Wikipedia, since it's so fundamental to how we organize the world. Thus, our "country" articles are simultaneously the "home base" for both the history of the region now controlled by the state representing the "country" as well as for description of the nation-state itself. So, I see Taiwan as among the most counterintuitive cases, where it's the article for the history of geographical Taiwan as an island, but also the entire history of the Republic of China. (I'm currently struggling over at Republic of China (1912–1949) to clearly state my opinion that it must be considered a subpage of this article in a sense, as odd as the result is) Remsense ‥ 论12:38, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
My kneejerk argument against that is geographical: that would seem arbitrary given islands are pretty discrete, and splitting the pre-1950 history of a peninsula in half is both pointless and impossible. Remsense ‥ 论13:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Then we should just point out the history of the Korean Peninsula from August 15, 1948, right? In fact, the constitution of the Republic of China declares the ROC as the sole representative of China, the constitution of the People's Republic of China also supports "One China". Italinoa (talk) 13:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
I'm just pointing out the complexity and contradiction here. Because you emphasize South Korea as a political entity, I said so. In fact both North and South Korea do not have jurisdiction over the entire peninsula, they even have different names in Korean (short names I mean). It's just that in the constitutions both are still in a legal dispute over ownership of the peninsula, but in reality they're still two sovereign countries, you know. If we assume one of them amends constitution, what do they have in common? If we exclude the legal issue, the only connection is that both countries share the same ethnicity, but don't China and Taiwan also have Han Chinese as their main ethnic group? And as I said, look at their constitution. Just thinking about the issue we're discussing makes my head spin. Italinoa (talk) 14:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The infoboxes of both Korea articles are indeed overburdened, but the sovereignty section of the infobox is not a geographical one, it is explicitly political. It is about the creation and succession of the polity in question. CMD (talk) 13:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
In that case, this article is a bit fuzzier than most, but all country articles are fuzzy for the reasons you mention. It could be worse, we could be editing articles on electoral districts. CMD (talk) 13:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Different issue, and with that, I oppose any attempt to add geographical information to its article, assuming silence means opposition to any suggested addition. Slatersteven (talk) 14:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Not different, doesn't Britain occupy most of UK territory? It is also very commonly used, even by your state agencies. This is an article that combines both politics and geography, otherwise why not introduce the history of all of China or just the Republic of China as a regime? Perhaps all articles about other sovereign countries should also adhere to the standard you state. Italinoa (talk) 15:35, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
So that means you recognize that Taiwan and the Republic of China are one, right? This article is about both geography and politics. Italinoa (talk) 17:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Then we should remove the timeline when Taiwan became part of the ROC to make the event section most summary and suitable for the regime! Italinoa (talk) 13:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
"but they were abolished in 2006 and the ROC reaffirmed its recognition of Mongolia (formerly known as Outer Mongolia in Taiwan) in 2002, as stipulated in the 1946 constitution"
The 1946 Constitution here refers to the Constitution of the Republic of China enacted in 1946. The above uses the year of its implementation in 1947 as the "1947 Constitution". The description should use the name of the 1947 Constitution uniformly to avoid misleading. The current Constitution of the Republic of China was formulated in 1946 and formally implemented in 1947. "1946" should to "1947". 103.232.212.82 (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not to be confused. This suggestion is not (i) moving Taiwan to Taiwan(country) and making Taiwan a disambiguation page, (ii) defining Taiwan offically ROC a country, a state or sth, in other word Taiwan is a country will be remained.
Operation steps: Use a proxy to make Google detect the location as Taiwan, search Google for "What is Taiwan", and count each result one by one in order.
Note: To prevent original research, only the direct use of the word "island" and "country" is counted; the use of "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is not counted; similar expressions such as "Taiwan: Country Profile" are regarded as "Country"; "Taiwan has all the infrastructure of an independent country" or similar expressions is not counted as "country"; Using the flag does not represent a "country".
This has been extensively discussed, and the sources you bring do not argue against the existing consensus established (see top of page). Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Since there is too much relevant information, please give some counsensuses directly instead of "see the top of the page" to avoid omissions, thank you. Donttellu8 (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Not a useful distinction, the topics overlap in the same way they do for Cuba, Madagascar, or Sri Lanka. CMD (talk) 15:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
A side note on the first 3 links in this survey, the Britannica entry is part of its "Countries of the World" series, the BBC article is clearly not talking about a simple geographical island ("They called this the Republic of China, a name Taiwan has retained"), and the same goes for CFR, which opens with "Taiwan, officially known as the Republic of China". CMD (talk) 15:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
in order to prevent original research, these links says Taiwan is an island rather than a country in the text directly, so I put them into "island". Donttellu8 (talk) 16:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
You seem to have worked yourself into a great confusion... Perhaps you are working backwords from a conclusion? Not sure this makes sense otherwise Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
THis all reads like OR, a user deciding what an RS means (read wp:v). If they call it a country, it is a country, whatever the rest of the text may say. Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
They explicitly call it a country, if they do not use country every time they say Tawain, or also describe the island in the same article, does not mean they are not calling it a country they are still calling it a country, not an island. That is where the OR lies, it is reading into the text a statement that is not explicitly made. Slatersteven (talk) 17:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
This exercise is pretty close to OR, since you are outlining the methodology of your research and drawing conclusion from that. If the objective here is to make Geography of Taiwan the primary topic, I think there is little evidence to support that.
From a cursory view of recent news articles that reference Taiwan, the word is almost always used to refer to the country vs. the island, involving the polity in most of those cases (e.g., president, government policy, military). This broadly reflects how readers would understand the word. Butterdiplomat (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Well I found similar survey in 2020 RfC. (here) That survey was accpected and I don't think this survey's method has any difference from that one. ?8 (talk) 05:39, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
And involving the polity in most of those cases (e.g., president, government policy, military) indicates they use word Taiwan as a country? Is it an OR? ?8 (talk) 05:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
this isnt hard i dont think, a history book should clear things up. the United Nations expelled Taiwan in 1971 and instead recognized the CCP/PRC as the official government of China as the communist CCP government ruling mainland China established a convincing claim that it, not the nationlist government in exile in Taiwan, was in fact the legitimate government of China. The CCP's strongest evidence was the fact that more than 98% of Chinese citizens lived on the mainland—roughly 540 million in 1950, compared to only 8 million in Taiwan.
only 12 countries officially recognize Taiwan/RoC as an independent nation. Calling Taiwan a country is like calling the island of Cook, Key West or Hawaii a country: its nonsensical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.200.184.250 (talk) 00:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Change Pinyin in the info box
There is a slight error in the Pinyin transcription in the info box under Flag anthem. It should be Zhōnghuá Mínguó Guóqígē, with the accent over the o in guó. Naqba īmuru (talk) 15:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This RfC is malformed per WP:RFCNEUTRAL, tendentious, and clearly contradictory to strong existing consensus (cf. the actual argumentation underlying WP:TWRFC). It's clearly either negligent or trolling, and there's no procedural necessity in further entertaining either tendency. Remsense ‥ 论14:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
New to Wikipedia, and why not describe taiwan as de facto country? i searched the archives of this page and its seems theres nobody disagree the facto statement of taiwan. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 11:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
So, in law it says it is, so does that mean De Jure? This is the problem, it is not like Sealand, it was an independent nation (and member of the UN), it is not in fact a self-declared entity, but a remnant. Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Most countries are de facto countries, but that term is usually used for breakaway states that never achieved recognition. That is not the situation for Taiwan, so rather than try to summarise the situation in two words, almost 200 words forming the longest paragraph of the lead are devoted to the topic. CMD (talk) 13:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
And you know, Taiwan, is commonly referred to Republic of China after retreat. in this way Taiwan seemly has never achieved recognition and more like a breakaway state from historical RoC 103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
and it doesn't say that summarising the situation in two words and 200 words forming the longest paragraph of the lead are devoted to the topic can't coexist 103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Well i see that ones who replied here are ones always taking part in editing this article. this may lead to maintaining the status quo. what about inviting more editors of other topics to see more opinions?103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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