Talk:Tabriz/Archive 1

Archive 1

The Saka that allegedly killed Cyrus the Great were not Turks and dwelled in north eastern parts of Iran not north west.

Tabriz capatle of Armenia?

tabriz always have belong to turks

Bazar

The great bazar of tabriz is the worlds biggest covered traditional bazar . It has unique and wonderfull architecture.Lots of tourist every year stop by there to enjoy the city's heart working.Also, Mozaffarye Bazar of carpet,which is the world's famouse carpet center and market in in this bazar. The bazar includes different parts called "Raste" . there are almost all the things available in this Bazar namely:cloth,eadibles,cunsumer goods,cosmetics, carpet,stationary,sweet and chocolates, etc.

There is no discussion about Bazar or a picture of it. Bazar has a significant economical, cultural and historical role in Tabriz. Mahanchian 14:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Chocolate City of Iran"? Not really?

Changes to Famous People and City of First sections

Hi, I have noticed that some changes have been made to Tabriz Article. Generally I think this way it's better. This makes the article shorter and more pleasent to read. But I have some points to make: 1. I think The city of firsts section is important enough to remain in the main article. As the case is in the Persian version of the article. 2. The issue that Tabriz is the city of firsts in Iran is not what Tabrizis believe. It's a documented fact. 3. Shortenening the list of famous Tabrizis in Tabriz article and moving the remaining names to a seperate article may be arbitrary in that which names should remain in the main article. A better way of cleaning up this section may be categorising the list and allowing all names to remian in Tabriz article as it is done in Isfahan article. 4. Besodes in articles about other cities all famous people are included and the list is not shortened. So either we should follow the suit in Tabriz article or there shoud be a wikipedia clean up policy which applies the other cities as well.

Please discuss these points so that we can decide weather we should restore the article to the previous versions or not. Regards,--Faucon7 21:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the list of Iranians article? We can put the places of birth of the famous people.Azerbaijani 23:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The mis-spelled name "Mohammad Hoseyn Behjat Tabrizi (Shahriyar)" under this section is linking to a nonexistent article. It should be changed to "Seyyed Mohammad Hossein Behjat-Tabrizi" or better changed to "Shahriar" as a better known name. AMoo-Miki 04:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Changes

Hey. Please use the talk page and get consensus before changing the article that much. Thanks.Azerbaijani 14:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Azar means fire, Azer means nothing

Dear friends,

please respect the fact that in Iran, the province has always been called Azarbaijan, reflecting the original etymology of the word "azar". There is no province called Azerbaijan in Iran - as simple as that. While the newly created republic of Arran, which was renamed to Azerbaijan by the Sowjets, may write its name differently, which is perfectly fine, in Iran, we still keep the original denomination and orthography. Thanks, Babak.

In support of Babak, may I refer you to: [1]? --BF 12:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop adding phony 'Armenian' references to Tabriz

Backed by their Russian puppet masters, Armenians have had continuous unfounded claims about the geographic extent of their imaginary 'empire' throughout their well-oiled fabricated history.

Claiming an Armenian naming origin or an administrative reference to Tabriz is just another blatant example of such cases. Just numerically speaking, even if all Armenian population of the 3rd century BC combined were capable of administering such a large municipality as Tabriz (which is very well doubted considering their present day state), these claims seem very unlikely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.147.67.12 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 2 April 2007.

The information that you are trying to remove is referenced, authoritative, and most importantly, unbiased (Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2007 - not an Armenian source). The following site also says that Tabriz was the capital of Armenia in the 3rd century.[2] Please provide some sources to back your claims. I should also add that back then, Armenia was much larger in terms of population and territory, and was an important regional power throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Read about the History of Armenia. -- Davo88 20:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully: the references you provided claiming Armenian origin for Tabriz are either the secondary sources referring to the fabricated primary records or are simply the fabricated primary records themselves. The main activity of the Armenian propaganda machine has been to claim 'Armenian' origin to other people's lands and national heritage. This is indeed a very sad situation for the Armenian people themselves where a fake sense of national history is being systematically injected into their national identity. Please note that such false 'Armenian' claims to the city of Tabriz will not only produce any positive result on the daily lives or statuses of your fellow Armenians living anywhere in the world, but also will unify all Azerbaijanis against them. This is to the detriment of the Armenians. I am not certain if the author of the above comments is aware of the tiny Armenian population who are still residing in Tabriz that may be negatively impacted as a result. This has also been the case for the Armenian minorities in the Republic of Azerbaijan and Turkey that have historically suffered great losses because of the Armenian atrocities or propaganda against the Turkic interests. If the World Peace is what we are all after, please refrain from such activities which bear no positive fruit but self-destruction and misery. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.147.67.12 (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Blasphemy! Your "threats" do not scare me or any of my compatriots in Iran. First of all, I hope you're aware of the existence of the Iranian government, which would want to defend its citizens and its territorial integrity. Secondly, I hope you're also aware of the existence of the Republic of Armenia, which would want to defend Armenian interests inside and outside its borders. Such behavior will take you/the Azeris nowhere... -- Davo88 23:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to say: yes, Britanica and Encatra can not be used when there are academic recognized sources. till you found that kind of sources or even sources with have the same prestige of Britanica (e.g. encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica,...) you just wasted your time. But after that don't hesitate to come back--Pejman47 00:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Encarta article is written by whom? Armenian professor Ronald Grigor Suny? Where's the full citation? Where's the text, or at least the full paragraph? And why doesn't any major Armenian source mention such an important piece of info as "capital of Armenia"? One Encarta is not enough - it's not an encyclopedia on the level of Britannica, Great Soviet or Iranica.

Then, what period does it cover? Only the rule of Tiridates III, who ruled roughly from 287/298-330 AD. Hence, Tabriz could have been capital only at that time.

Meanwhile, far more important, Armenia was a vassal state, not some independent country, and was part of Roman Empire and Sassanid Persia at the time. That's why Tiridates, who grew up in Rome, was appointed as a king by Roman emperor Diocletian [3] and later his son, the next king, was imprisoned by shah Shapor II of Persia.[4]

What's more, Tiridates III, like his entire Armenian branch of the Arsacid dynasty, were not ethnic Armenians, but were ethnic Parthians. All of this of course must be reflected in the article.

This is proven by such a credible and scholarly source as The Cambridge History of Iran, v. 3. The Seleucid, Parthian and Sassanian periods /edited by Ehsan Yarshater. Published by Cambridge University Press, 1983, ISBN 052120092X, p. 518 [5], which correctly identifies the vassal kings of Armenia, and specifically Tiridates III, as ethnically Parthian (albeit with a Median forbear):

"When the Parthians were overthrown by the Sasanians in AD 226, the old Armenian royal house became redoubtable foes of the new Great Kings of Iran. The Armenian Arsacids remained, as they claimed, the champions of Iranian legitimacy. This helps to explain the singular bitterness of the relations between Arsacid Armenia and Sasanian Iran, extending right up to and even after the abolition of the Armenians Arsacid dynasty in 428. We are further confronted with the singular spectacle of a Parthian king, Tiridates III, whose forbear, Tiridates I, was a Magian who was forbidden to defile the sea by sailing to Rome in a boat, being the first ruler of a substantial kindgdom to embrace Christianity as the state religion (traditionally, in AD 301). We even have a dynasty of Patriarchs of the Armenian Church, descending from the Parthian nobleman who became St Gregory the Illuminator, being proudly remembered by the Armenian Church to ths day by the surname Partev, the Parthian." --adil 03:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Details about Armenia's sovereignty status, whether they are factual or not, shouldn't be mentioned because they are irrelevant to Tabriz. I posted 2 sources (one from Encarta, and the other from that other site), and you are not satisfied, while you thought that 2 sources are enough for the Tigranes article so that you'd push your POV there? Shameless double-standards... -- Davo88 03:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

On Tigranes the Great -- I've posted not two sources, but a dozen, all of them verifiable and from academic sources. Encarta is not verifiable, and it contradicts this source among others: [6] "It was the capital of Azarbaijan in the 3rd century A.D."

Meanwhile the problem is not as much Armenia's sovereignty, although that in itself is very important and precludes loud proclamations as "catital of Armenia", but the fact that Tiridates, like his whole Arsacid dynasty, were Parthians, of Iranic origin. And that certainly should be reflected in the article.

Tabriz is firmly in the Iranian Plateau and regarded as part of what is recognized as Iran. At that time -- 3rd century AD -- a powerful dynasty of Sasanids ruled Iran. Hence, it could never have been with majority of ethnic Armenians or be a capital of ethnic Armenians. It could have been some kind of a temporary or secondary capital for the IRANIC dynasty that ruled the vassal Armenia kingdom and its population (which aside from Armenians included many Jews, as well as other Hellenic, Iranic and Caucasian peoples).

Here's what we know about the Sasanid Empire: "Ardashir I, a king of Persis, defeats the Parthian king Artabanos IV and two years later is crowned as the first Sasanian king in 226 AD. His son, Shapur I, expands the borders to include all of modern Iran and parts of Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and the Gulf Coast of the Arabian peninsula." [7]

Here's a map of the Sasanid empire: [8] "The Sassanids established an empire roughly within the frontiers achieved by the Achaemenids, with the capital at Ctesiphon. ... Shahpur I (240-272 CE), son and successor of Ardeshir, waged successful campaigns against the Romans and in 260 CE even took the emperor Valerian prisoner. Between 260 and 263 CE he had lost his conquest to Odenathus, and ally of Rome. Shapur II (ruled 309-379 CE) regained the lost territories, however, in three successive wars with the Romans."

And [9] "Geographically, the Sassanid empire was almost exactly the Achaemenid territory, with capital at Ctesiphon"

--adil 06:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Maulana?

Why is Maulana Jalal ad-Din Rumi referenced in the "Culture" section? He did not live/compose poetry in Tabriz. He just assumed that his beloved (who may in fact have been killed by Maulana's followers) would have left for Tabriz. I think the verse should be removed. Or we should at least add that it was Shams who is Tabrizi, not Jalal ad-Din Rumi Mutluluk 21:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Tabriz has been put under ‘protection’.

This protection is a slap on the face of truth and justice. This protection helps an article with several unconfirmed and seriously biased references, an article that needs editing and inclusion of verifiable sources, and an article that promotes nothing but ethnic hatred and destruction.

Tabriz,

Ah my immortal beauty,

My eternal mother,

My proud past,

My humble present,

My hopeful future,

Don't they know you have seen countless foreign invasions, sieges, plunders, destructions, and humiliations?

And, don't they remember every time you have emerged triumphant and ever glowing? And, their dull faces vanished in oblivion

You endured while they perished, you prospered while they declined, and you were blissful while they retreated into their own agony.

Protecting a biased article is just a timid last resort of your coward enemies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.193.216.191 (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

• I have had to semiprotect the article because it is quite likely that a banned user took place in the discussion. The easiest way to edit a semiprotected article is to request changes on the talk page (supporting it by WP:RS). Alternatively you can get yourself an account Alex Bakharev 08:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Anon, what are you talking about? One thing I see is you trying add that the city was Turkic in the 3rd century!Azerbaijani 13:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

azerbaijan has been the land of turks for 8000 years.

Dear readers of Wikipedia as a historian, I know and most of the historian believe that Azerbaijan had been the home land of turks for more than 8000 years. You can refer to the historical refrences in libraries of Iran, Turkey, Europe and U.S. The name of Azerbaijan is a combination of az= a tribe of turks, ar= man, bay= manhood, jan= land, if you notice it means the land of men and manhood. Some people who think that it is a persain word are making a big mistake. No persian has ever lived in Azerbaijan, then how they were able to name it? In the case of Armenians they have called Tabriz or Azerbaijan in their own tounge and this does not mean that the words are Armenian. Moreover if they think that they are so clever they can protect their own land from Russians and persians. Tabriz is a city in Northern Azerbaijan which for the time being is located inside the political boundaries of iran. New archeological inspection in Tabriz has proved its existence in 6000 years ago whose citizens were undoubtyedly turks.

Thank you Wiki —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.219.128.210 (talk) 13:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

lol...thats funny because recent DNA evidenece has shown that over 80% of the azeris are persian. Language does not always prove. ethnicity

Is this a joke?Azerbaijani 23:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It 's not important from when people of Azarbaijan started to speak in Turkic, what is important and what is the truth is that Azarbaijan was always part of Iran and will be (even what you say 6000 years ago!). I really get offended by this "Tabriz is a city in Northern Azerbaijan which for the time being is located inside the political boundaries of iran." --Pejman47 00:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

most of that crap comes from Azerbajan the country..they are just trying to make a land grabe. DNA has proven that the two Azeris are different origins

• You tell me where is Iran? Today's Iran is not yesterday's Iran. Because there wasn't any Iran before 1929. and before that whatever empire was on power, had different Borders, all the time, not even close to Iran's border. Empires had different lands and countries under their control. Just like the Roman Empire!

wtf...yes there was an iran before 1929. Iranians have been calling their country iran for over 1000 years. do your research instead of spitting crap. Its the rest of the world has been calling iran persia. Iran = Persia

in 1929 only the Qajar was replaced with Pahlavi dynasty. Tell the one who brain-washed you, that he is not at all good at it. خوش گلمیز--Pejman47 11:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

خوش گلمیز! who tried to teach you turkish like this? there is no source that shows iran as a single united country before 1929! but there are documents today that shows the IRI and it's dependents are not being honest.

This is not a forum. You can take your outrageous and ridiculous theory to one of the thousands of forums on the internet. This is where we talk about improving the article.Azerbaijani 13:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Mr or Ms خوش گلمیز : Wikipedia talk page is not place for slogans.If there is any article-related material , disscuss it here , if there is not , then please don't write here. The fact that disscusion page is editable , shows that vandalism can also be reverted in the talk pages . thankyou , --Alborz Fallah 08:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

considering before the migration of 11th C. and there has been nothing mentioned of turks in that region. Also that are the ppl where medians. Plus DNA test have shown that the Azeris in Iran are more relation to Iranians then the Turks

• Watch this one: [10].
  
  --BF 12:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why User:MikchaelKrostiv reverted me (in his second edit after account establishment). I didn't remove any reference from the article, only added Britannica and other sources, tags to unsourced claims, and improved the quality of the article. Atabek 07:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Citation tag

I am removing the tag, as the article now, after my edits, cites over 10 scholarly sources and I will be adding more. Thanks. Atabek 19:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Tabriz and Gazaca?

The source used for the article as relating Tabriz to Gazaca does not seem correct to me. Gazaca was located much further south, and Tabriz by itself seems to be built in post Islamic era. or maybe they are the same and I'm wrong?! Sharishirin (talk) 01:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a mistake in the Britannica article. Gazaca was the main city of pre-Islamic Atropatene, and Tabriz is the main city of post-Islamic Azerbaijan but they do not refer to a same geographical place. Gazaca is generally associated with riun mounds of Laylan and the nearby Takhti Suleiman southeast of lake Urmia. Read this article by prof. Mary Boyce; and I'm going to remove false info from the page. Sharishirin (talk) 07:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The article largely and inaccurately confuses Tabriz with Gazaca. Based on long geographic distance these two cities cannot be regarded as the same. I remove parts of the arilce with contains such a mistake. Sharishirin (talk) 11:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag on Constitutional Revolution

I added a reference citing that the Iranian Constitutional Revolution of 1906 started in Tabriz, replacing the fact tag. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 16:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it's most powerful stronghold was Tabriz: it first begin in Tehran, but after Mozaffar al-Din Shah , the next king Mohammad ali shah closed the parliament and cancelled the constitution laws , the Tabriz alone get against it and battled until Gilani and Esfahani's invaded the Shah forces in Tehran and bring back the parliament to power. Then the revolution didn't actually begin in Tabriz itself, but the most powerful supporter of the revolution was Tabrizians.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Page tags

It would be useful if the taks coudl be moved to teh section(s) where they apply, so our editing coudl be focussed there. Thanks AndrewRT(Talk) 22:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Demography of Tabriz

Dear Friends

According to the last National Iranian Census (2006 census) Tabriz had a population of 1,597,312. which in ranking of population it is the 6th city in Iran After Tehran, Mashad, Esfahan, Karaj and Shiraz. Please refer to this site which is the offical site of Iran national Portal of Statistics (Sazmane meli amar Iran): http://www.sci.org.ir/portal/faces/public/census85/census85.natayej

and check the population of cities by age. So I think it is better to correct the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unforgiven1975 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Peyman, Azerbaijani has two scripts, hence there is no reason to remove one of the scripts spelling the name of the city, majority of which are Azeris. Please, reconsider your POV in this regard. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Perso-Arabic script has been the script of Iranian Azerbaijanis for long time and the Turkish alphabet is a new one itself (not only in Azerbaijan rep. , but also in Turkey itself) , and because the number of Azeris in Iran are more than anywhere else , (Including Azerbaijan rep. and Turkey ) , then it seems reasonable to mention the Perso-Arabic script of Azeri in the article .The Azeri with the Turkish alphabet can also be mentioned in the article alongside the Perso-Arabic script.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Alborz, the Azerbaijani language recognized internationally, including by ISO and other encoding standards, has a Latin alphabet. Just as clarification, Azerbaijani Latin script is different from what you call "Turkish alphabet", because there are extra letters for sounds. I don't see why showing Azeri Latin spelling in Tabriz article is such a big issue. Azeri Wikipedia for example has both Latin and Arabic scripts in titles and interface.Atabek (talk) 13:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

As I said , there is no problem in using the Latin alphabet in writing Azeri Turkish . That may show the friendship of the people in two sides of Aras river and is great .But deleting the تبریز and counting it as only Persian (and not azeri), may induce the idea that the only recognized and dominant script of azeri is the Latin one.I'm not asking to delete the Latin Azeri , but I'm saying to include the Perso-Arabic Azeri , and not to use the title Azeri only for the Latin one . In Azeri Wikipedia , many articles are in both scripts.Saghol.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I added both of them; as you have suggested. Cheers to both of you. --Pejman47 (talk) 17:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I agree on that. Many Azeri speakers use Arabic script, so it's natural to cite the transliteration in both Arabic and Latin scripts. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 16:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

That's good! Many Azeri publications are in Perso-Arabic script in Iran.That's not mere Arabic script because many signs of it does not exist in Arabic (e.g:four letters: پ [p], چ [ʧ], ژ [ʒ], and گ [g]. )--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Restored several references, which pertained to etymology of Tabriz. Still not clear as to why they were removed over time, all sources seem to be valid and neutral. Atabek (talk) 23:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Tabriz being the center of Atropatene has nothing to do with the etymology of Tabriz, it's irrelevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdo777 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It only refers to the fact that ancient Gazaca was in the location where Tabriz is now. That's historical reference, and I am not sure why would this cause opposition at all. Atabek (talk) 00:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

cause it has nothing to do with the name of Tabriz! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdo777 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It has to do with the history of the city, leading to its establishment as Tabriz. Still not clear why sourced reference is causing so much concern. Are you disputing that Gazaca was a capital of Atropatene and it was where Tabriz is now? Atabek (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I dispute, simply because they are different; Gazaca was not where Tabriz is now. Gazaca stood south of lake Urmia immediately west of Takht-i Suleyman, and that has hundreds of kilometres geographic distance with Tabriz in northeast of lake Urmia. Moreover all neutral sources you are refering to are about Gazaca, and confising these two cities is like confusing Tehran with Persepolis. Also I had discussed this issue in a section above, and there had provided Iranica article for Gazaca. Sharishirin (talk) 06:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Translit

Babakexorramdin, Azerbaijani language has Latin script, acknowledge by ISO. And this is English Wikipedia. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Atabak please do not vandalize Iranian articles because you hate me. it is very obviuous from your tedious efforts to make me look bad infornt of admins etc... But as your answer. It is very simple. Azerbaijani language in Iran does not use the latin Scripot which you use. Your alphabet is an alien alphabet. We are not writing the Chinese, Cyrlic etc.. Alphabet after Iranian cities either. The official script of Azerbaijani is this what you may call perso-Arabic. That is nonsense because the alphabet was/is also used for istanbuli Turkish, Kurdish, Uyghur, Urdu etc... All governmental documents and all books and magazines in Azeri language in Iran use this alphabet. All Iranian Azeri cities and persons should use this alphabet. I should add that I have mixed feelings about this alphabet myself but it is the reality.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Please, WP:AGF before accusing others for nothing, I don't see how inserting Latin transliteration of word Tabriz is an act of vandalism. Azerbaijani language as recognized by ISO using Latin script. Google search on Azerbaijani returns more Latin script links than Arabic script ones. Wikipedia Azeri version uses Latin script in main body, and both Latin and Arabic scripts for labels. This is not an Iranian publication but an encyclopedia, and there is only one definition of Azerbaijani language, so having a Latin version along with Arabic is more than appropriate for clarity. If you have problems with this, perhaps we can seek mediator to resolve the problem? Atabek (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you speaking about assume good faith??? After your smear campaign aginst me last week? As to your answer. I am not going to repeat myself. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I already explained that Azerbaijani language is officially using Latin script, so there is no reason to get rid of it in the article. Please, assume good faith and refrain from engaging in nationalist conflicts over such minor facts. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 21:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you already explained nothing and if you are really a proponent of two script policy for all Azerbaijani names, then you better start putting the names of the twons in the Republic of Azerbaijan in the Iranian Azeri script. If you do this then we can discuss more.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the script is called Arabic alphabet and not "Iranian Azeri" script. Arabic script, although used for many ages in both north and south Azerbaijan due to Islamic influence, was determined not to be a good match for Turkic phonetics in 1920s, and therefore was replaced with Latin script in Azerbaijan and later in Turkey. As far as your proposal goes, the Arabic script is already used in titles for clarity in Azeri Wikipedia. Otherwise, the official script under List of ISO 639-1 codes is Latin. Now if you want to rephrase the language as South Azerbaijani per ISO 639-3 or Ethnologue, then we can discuss that. But as of today neither Arabic- nor Cyrillic-script based Azerbaijani language officially exists. Atabek (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If your source, or any other nonreliable source (has forgotten to mention it or do not mention it purposedly, they better correct their mistake. Azerbaijani is spoken in Iran and it does not use the Elchibey's Latin script. I was not talking about Azerbaijani wikipedia being in two scripts but rather about to include Iranian Azeri script when you are writing about the geographical names in the republic of Azerbaijan. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Latin script has no place or relevance on this page. Azerbaijan Republic neither has the authority nor the mandate to "determine" what script the speakers of Azerbaijani in Iran should use. The vast majority of Azerbaijani-speakers in the world do not use the Latin script. If I was more cynical, I would call this an irredentist attitude.--CreazySuit (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

CreazySuit, your opinion in this case is naturally non-neutral, and thus cannot be taken as decisive anyway. But just as a reminder, Wikipedia does not determine what Azeris in Iran should or should not speak. I think you probably need to review the material above before making emotional comments, citing Azerbaijan Republic here for no known reason. This is ENGLISH Wikipedia, not IRI's state-controlled media to impose, which script should Azerbaijani use. As I said, ISO (which is the main authoritative body on the subject) recognizes Latin script, thus it should appear on the page. Atabek (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I urge you to WP:AGF, and comment on the content, not the other editors. If my opinion is "naturally non-neutral", what would that make your opinion given your track-record on Wikipedia... People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. ISO is not the United Nations or an arbitrating body, Azeri Turki has two scripts, and the Latin script is neither used by the Iranian Azeris nor recognized by Iran, so it has no place or relevance on this page.--CreazySuit (talk) 00:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

CreazySuit, you seem to be quite experienced to study my "track record", especially since the establishment of your history as user long after both ArbCom cases. Thanks for your recommendation, I would suggest you follow the same and WP:AGF before we have to find out the reasons of your interest in specific contributors and the relevance of "track records" in article content discussions. It's irrelevant what is recognized or not by Iran, as Azerbaijani is not a state language of this country, does not develop in context of it, and Wikipedia is not an Iranian publication. It's a free encyclopedia, where articles should be in line with WP:NPOV and ISO, as an international body, would be the most appropriate source in this case. And I am not suggesting to remove Arabic script version, but only suggesting to keep the Latin version in line with ISO. Atabek (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Your argument sounds so strange. In your logic only state languages exists, which is weird. In addition Azerbaijani has constituitional status in Iran, and there are many state newspapers and TV and Radio broadcastings in this Language. Azerbaijani Turkic is spoken some 600 years in Iran and was written the same way as it is today. The Elchibey's Latin script in the Republic of Azerbaijan is some 15 years old.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Atabek, your veiled threats are indicative of the poor behavior I was talking about. I have crossed your path on two or three articles now, and amazingly I always find you engaged in some sort of a personal battle, and it was you again who turned the discussions here personal by calling me "naturally non-neutral". Otherwise, I have absolutely no "specific interest" in you or anything you stand for, I only check Babakexorramdin's contributions periodically to correct his mistakes.

Getting back on the topic at hand, Ethnologue which assigns the ISO numbers has given the Iranian Azeri an ISO number of her own and it mentions that the language uses Perso-Arabic script. Furthermore, Ethnologue states that "North and South Azerbaijani are spoken by one ethnic group. Each language group is reluctant to accept the written form of the other.". --CreazySuit (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Well,as an original Tabrizi, and a neutral view in this case I can advise a rather non-sensitive approach to this matter.I'm not sure what's the Wikipedia's policy in adding the other languages in English articles. Anyway,I don't like such language as "veiled threats" and etc(CreazySuit).
  For Atabek ,I can explain about the non-PersoArabic script that there is a relative negative POV among the Iranians in general and Iranian Azeris in particular against it ; Maybe because the religious texts are written in Arabic script , or maybe because of the nationalistic views;anyway, don't get it as unfriendly:that's not personal!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sister Cities ?

I don't know what's the exact meaning of "Sister Cities" , and also what is the importance of including it . If it means friendship based on language of that cities , then why not including all cities of these countries like Ganja or Ankara and etc . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

On the Epic of Köroğlu

In the event that someone is familiar with the history of the above-mentioned epic, it would be relevant to introduce some appropriate details into the pertinent Wikipedia entry (i.e. here: "Epic of Köroğlu"). The river Aras is central to this epic, and as the following remarkably beautiful stage production shows, the libretto is in Persian.

A short section of a stage production of Köroğlu, an opera by Uzeyir Hajibeyov, YouTube: [11] (10 min 55 sec).

With kind regards, --BF 02:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC).

The interested may consider the useful remarks, by User:Arkankipcak, placed here: [12]. --BF 14:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC).

Ruins of Rabe Rashidi

Would you let me know who removed my adding subject (Ruins of Rabe Rashidi) to the monument parts of Tabriz? I have been searching for good references and articles for this historical place. But you can see, for example, this web page: [[13]] or go to the Abasi Street in Tabriz and see it!!! So, please and please don't remove it again. Or I ...

And please, can some one tell me how I can upload pictures (pictures of Rabe Rashidi) to the Tabriz web in Wikipedia? Thanks a lot! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yasha Azar (talk • contribs) 21:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Article Improvement

Just a note to help us all to keep the focus on this article. Well done all the contributors for contributing so much detail. Problems though - the article should not contain lists of names of companies and details of the qualityetc. of the hotels. This is not a directory and not a place for free advertisements either. It is spam and liable to be deleted by anyone who finds it, so whoever keeps restoring it, please stop. Many of the sections in the second half of the article are composed purely of lists of facilities and places of various kinds. These should be in the form of informative text and conversion into good quality English is the next priority. THe photos are lovely but galleries of pictures are not recommended by WP policy (can't remember which one)so most of them belong in the linked articles.--AssegaiAli (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

All WP editors who contribute to editing Tabriz page please use this talk page. As AssegaiAli said in forgoing remark, second half of the article is only the names of places and etc. And I have noticed some of the images are excess, fore example pictures of Abressan St. and Shahrake Roshdieh are not really necessary. In my opinion, the monument and landmark part of the article is very nice and attractive; but it has only one dearth: Image of El Guli. Please again; use this page to outline a comprehensive plan for improving Tabriz page.

Thanks and YAŞASIN! --Yasha Azar (talk) May 18, 2009

I agree; and the text on the Eurovision Song Contest is not relevant to the town and seems to give the impression of raising conflicts on this article. It is unnecessary and I have removed it.--79.78.167.136 (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Babakexorramdin, are you editing Wikipedia or protecting Iran's territorial integrity? The rules say that this place is for contributing to encyclopedia, not for resolving political issues. Atabəy (talk) 23:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

for this reason (contributing to wikipedia in a neutral way) I revert your edits and other people who pursue a political agenda.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

You mean for the stated reason of "protecting Iran's territorial integrity", you're reverting my addition of ISO-recognized Latin spelling of Azerbaijani language? Isn't claiming to protect territorial integrity a political agenda in itself? Atabəy (talk) 01:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I am deleting the section on the Eurovision Song contest which is both irrelevant and unencyclopedic. Pournick seems to be continually reinserting it despite lots of others disagreeing--94.196.118.6 (talk) 13:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

History of anncient cities of Azerbajan at North and South

Establishment of Ancient cities of Azerbaijan (Northern otr Southern)was not different than establishment of any ancient cities and civilization between south regions of Black Sea and Persian Golf. All the ancient civilations and establishment of the ancient cities were either by sea shores or river shores, not in elavations. In Azerbaijan at North the ancient city establishments started by Caspian Sea shores, Kura river shores, North shores of Araz river and between these two rivers. While in Southern Azerbaijan the southern Shore of Araz was montainous around Ardabil,so there is less possiblities of establishment of ancient civilization around that area. However, the loction between two revirs of Aji Chai and Ghori Chai should be a location of an ancient civilization where modern Tabriz is located. Recent discovery in Blue mosque confirms a history of civilization about 3000 years ago. In this regard, Eastern,South-Eastern and Western Shores of Urmia sea(lake) was another possiblity for establishment of ancient civilzation. The land is very fertile. There are evidences of ancient temples of Fire worshipers around South-Eastern region of Urmia sea(lake)confirming a history of ancient civilizatin in this area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.68.248.65 (talk) 07:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Image Box

Please this image Do not remove the box, because of another image is better and more appropriate. If the problem is to tell the coffee substitute another image. Thanks. --Elmju (talk) 10:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Improvement of the article

Duplicated information and photos

• There are many stuffs that repeated more than one time (for example photo of the Ark, Saat ...). Some of them are inserted both inside the article and in photo gallery but using just one of them gives enough information. Inserting so many photos that are showing the same thing gives no new information. Plus for each photo which is inserting inside the text we should give enough description inside the article. Just putting numerous photos doesn't make sense.

Non-related materials

• Presidential election 2009: There is a phrase about ongoing political issues (presidential election 2009 protests). The protest has its own article and as far as I know Tabriz was not involved in the protests that much. So putting a general phrase about Iranians protest against election results without mentioning Tabriz role on the protests is meaningless.
• There are few photos and materials about other cites and towns of east Azerbaijan province. Some of them are far from Tabriz for example Zonooz is a part of Marand..... They have their own articles and they could be briefly described in East Azerbaijan province not Tabriz.

References

• They should be citation should be directly refer to the original reference not another article in Wikipedia. For example see reference for sister city Istanbul. It is referred to Istanbul article but there is no citation about this matter in Istanbul page.

Spelling

• The spell of Center is correct not centre (at least it is not common)!
• meters is correct not "metres"
• in English Azerbaijan is correct one not Azarbaijan. The spelling is different than Farsi.
• neighborhoods is the correct one (not neighborhoods).

I have tried to modify these items but someone is deleting everything. Hope he read this lines!

--Microinjection (talk) 15:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Azerbaijan or Azarbaijan ?

Microinjection said "in English Azerbaijan is correct one not Azarbaijan. The spelling is different than Farsi." .
Despite the name in English , the name of the province - and not the republic - is a proper name , and the English name vs the official name should not be mentioned here: Same about Noushahr that we don't translate it as "New town" or Foolad shahr that we don't use Iron city ....--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Some how you are right, but in that case we have to use Azarbaijan-e-sharqi not East Azarbaijan. We are translating second part while transferring the other part directly from Farsi. So still I think if we are about using East rather than Sharqi it is better to using Azerbaijan. --Microinjection (talk) 14:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with microinjection, the things Aborz fallah said about ironcity etc is somethings totally different.

Here we r making the" ENGLISH" page of these places and we should use the word which "ENGLISH PEOPLE" use not translation of persian pronunciation! Pournick (talk) 16:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have not thought about that ! But have to admit that is a good point . Anyway , if you search for the word "East Azarbaijan" in Wikipedia , you will find numerous links , and if you are going to change it all , that will be a lengthy work . Until then , maybe it's better not to change it only in this article , and change it in all of the other articles that use the word . Thanks--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

That is neither logical to translate all of a proper name to English (East Azerbaijan) nor a part of it (East Azarbaijan) . But overall , that is routine to chose the dominant name in other articles in relevant pages .I mean perhaps the "Azarbaijan-e Gharbi" and "Azarbaijan-e Sharghi" are the best alternatives , without translation of any part to English , but due to the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), The "West and East Azarbaijan" are the Widely accepted names, and if we want to change it in articles , at least we have to change all the pages and all the templates and all the redirects that use that ( I mean Azarbaijan-e Gharbi & Sharghi) . Until reaching a consensus , the best thing possible is to use the current dominant name : West Azarbaijan, East Azarbaijan.

Please note the following Google Tests :

1. 40,500 for "West Azarbaijan" .
2. 35,400 for "West Azerbaijan".
3. 45,700 for "East Azarbaijan".
4. 34,200 for "East Azerbaijan".
   --Alborz Fallah (talk) 20:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That is good a point to transferring whole of the word to English but there will be further problems. If you notice to Google tests you will find that the use of those Farsi words is very limited in comparison of current situation (a couple of hundredes for Azarbaijan-e Sharghi). So still I think that the best way is to keep using Azerbaijan or Azarbaijan with English word of West and East.

About Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan: since the word of Azerbaijan is already a most common word used for the region (72,600,000 for Azerbaijan versus 738,000 for Azarbaijan) for someone who is not familiar with the region it will be bewildering to using another word. So may be we have to start changing the words in our articles.

--Microinjection (talk) 19:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Comparison of Azerbaijan versus Azarbaijan in Google test is misleading , because the whole of the "West Azarbaijan" or "East Azarbaijan" is one combined proper name .By disintegrating the name to it's components , and examining every part apart , the result will have pitfalls.One of the biases to be aware of in Google testing is using a combined name without "double quote" marks.I think in the articles that points to the West and East provinces ,we may use Azarbaijan and in the articles that talks about the whole region , north and south of Aras river , we may use the word Azerbaijan(as the test results shows).--Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

East Azerbaijan or West Azerbaijan is a combination of a verb and its adjective (like east wall and so on, of course here it is used for special place). So from this point of view it seems that using both of East Azerbaijan and West Azerbaijan is fair.--Microinjection (talk) 18:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Verb-adjective relationship is only in Persian , and not in English .That is a proper name in English . Set aside that the name itself in Persian , is now a proper one ! As East Azarbaijan is not the eastern part of Iranian Azarbaijan , and that's the central part indeed ( Ardabil is the Eastern part!). Is it correct to change the name of the article "Oberliga" , to Superior league , just because in German language that is a verb-adjective name ?! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Although they (East+Azerbaijan) are used as a proper name but the whole word was like verb+adjective also. Well actually the East and West are English translations for the Farsi adjectives. So they have to be used as adjective as it is utilized in English grammar. It is like West Germany or East Germany. About Ardabil we cannot do anything here (I'm sure that you are not about changing the names as West, Central and East Azerbaijan provinces ;) ).--Microinjection (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(out-dented) why many occurrences of "Azarbaijan" in wikipedia have been replaced with/moved to "Azerbaijan"? (See East Azarbaijan province and similar pages/templates) I do not understand why the google test above has been ignored. These changes must be done based on WP:CONS. For example the occurrence of "Eest Azarbaijan" is more than "East Azerbaijan" and it does not matter that "Azerbaijan" occurs more than "Azarbaijan" because they are unrelated to the combined words like "East Azarbaijan", and it would be original research to relate these things. Also for the example please see the searches

1. "East Azarbaijan province" (around 69,800)
2. "East Azerbaijan province" (around 7,990)

Therefore there is a strict violation of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names):"1. The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." if we do not move back the articles to their original titles. Xashaiar (talk) 05:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If we are going to translate the structure of every proper name, then why don't you (Microinjection)translate the proper name Azerbaijan itself ? That means "(the land )protected by the (Holy) Fire" . Then the proper name "Azarbaijan e Sharqhi" would be best in the articles as "East of the land protected by fire " !!!
Overall, the most dominant English name have to be used in the article , and the dominancy can be proved by Google testing the word in double quote marks. As you mentioned West and East Germany , what do you think about Belarus? Why not White Rus?

Do you think we need a third party opinion ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 05:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't mean translating whole of the structure, but there is a very similar case, this is exactly the same as East Germany. Azerbaijan is a common verb in English referring to the region and we are translating East. So it seems that East Azerbaijan is the proper name. There is another issue: language for the region is Azerbaijani not Farsi so if you think that transferring the name may be it is better to transferring Azerbaijani name (Sharqi Azerbaijan). --Microinjection (talk) 11:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The similarity with the East Germany can only be assessed via examining the popularity in the net(Google Testing).The element that makes Belarus (not translating ) and East Germany (translating ) different is familiarity of them among ordinary English language people .In this case , theoretically a province of Iran is by far more unknown than a western European country ;and the examination supports that theory(Google Test).So I think it is better to write West and East Azarbaijan for the provinces, and Azerbaijan for the region .That will also prevent confusion in understanding west parts of the republic as West Azarbaijan.
About your point of language in that region , I think that is not relevant because the administrative divisions are not a local entity and it would be impossible to choose the name in local language in the English Wiki :Isn't that would be ridiculous to use the Spanish names of southern USA states in English Wikipedia?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

About southern states of United States it is really a different story (we may discuss on it later on but for right now lets to talk about Azerbaijan). Using two different words for the region and states name is more bewildering. So when you are saying for someone Azerbaijan region he would think that you are talking of Azerbaijan republic not about this two Iranian states.--Microinjection (talk) 19:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you are not satisfied , I think it's better to ask for a third opinion .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 20:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually I'm not satisfied yet and may be it is better to having a third party (a neutral one ;)). Also I cannot update the conversation for few weeks. As you said it is better to receiving another opinion.--Microinjection (talk) 21:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you are not going to participate in conversation actively, I think returning back to the names East & West Azarbaijan is a reasonable move at least until you or other persons who think that is wrong , get more involved . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I have changed the articles when at very early conversation you accepted that East Azerbaijan is the correct word, afterward when I started to change another conversation started. By the way for right now, we have to wait a third party's point as well.--Microinjection (talk) 15:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

In a classic tile of Iranian literature , Molana has a tile about three friends that had conflicts in spending their money and their problem was only because of different understanding of language , (انگور و اوزوم و عنب); anyway , as it is evident from the opening of this section , I was talking about Azarbaijan e Sharghi , and not East Azerbaijan . Third party opinion is a good idea , but please keep in touch (in talk page of this article)for representing your point of views . Thank you very much --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the process , but I did my best in asking for a third opinion here .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Also as you mentioned "West Azerbaijan" does not necessarily points to "West Azarbaijan province", for example look at the exact search of English pages with "West Azerbaijan" but probably not talking about Iran the number is "2,670" that lowers significantly your estimate "35,400". In any case searches show "West Azarbaijan" is more common than "West Azerbaijan" and there is the exact phrase "West Azarbaijan province". This analysis is true for East Azarbaijan too. Xashaiar (talk) 17:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to point out that for the local populace the correct word would probably be Azerbaijan mainly because the cause for confusion over A and E is as a result of attempting to display the letter (and sound) Ə in the English alphabet. I apologise as I do not know the corresponding letter in Persian (Arabic) script. I could be wrong if the naming is based purely on the Farsi pronounciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.235.132 (talk) 17:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with microinjection, the things Aborz fallah said about ironcity etc is somethings totally different.

Here we r making the" ENGLISH" page of these places and we should use the word which "ENGLISH PEOPLE" use not translation of persian pronunciation! Pournick (talk) 16:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Neutral Opinion

Hello! I noticed that this article had been listed as requesting a neutral third opinion at WP:3O. I can see that all editors are very interested in contributing postively to this encyclopedia. I will continue to review this matter with the goal of offering an opinion in the next couple of days. It would help if the involved editors could make a brief (less than a paragraph) summary of what version they believe to be correct, and why (with sources) they believe it to be so. Thanks! —Matheuler 17:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you for your contribution.East Azarbaijan is an Iranian province.Due to the fact that the country north of this province is spelled as Azerbaijan in English usage , our debate is to use the local Iranian name of East Azarbaijan or it's alternative East Azerbaijan in this article(and perhaps in all of the templates and pages that use this name ).Google tests for finding dominant English name are given in the above section.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution.

The discussion is about English name of a province in Iran; which I believe East Azerbaijan is the correct word. The point about the other word (which I think it is used incorrectly, the East Azarbaijan) is that first term of the word, East, translated from Farsi to English. But the second term, Azerbaijan, is transferred from Farsi to English (Azarbaijan). I believe that we have to use Azerbaijan word which is widely used in English for calling the region. So I suggest using East Azerbaijan word for the province name.--Microinjection (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Those responses are very clear. I can certainly see that both sides have a valid viewpoint. I would like input regarding the following: (1) What is the generally accepted practice in independent secondary sources (e.g. english language newspapers and academic journals) (2) What is the practice followed on other (perhaps more visible) Wikipedia articles (I will check some, but you likely have more experience in this area). —Matheuler 00:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually there isn't any official translation or an English newspaper in this matter (at least I haven't seen yet). But inside dictionary or maps normally Azerbaijan is used to calling this region (I mean for both of Republic of Azerbaijan + Iranian Azerbaijan provinces). However inside net various verbs is used for the proviences (East Azerbaijan: http://iguide.travel/East_Azerbaijan_%28Iran%29 Western Azarbayejan: http://www.salinesystems.org/content/2/1/9 East Azarbayjan: http://www.iranchamber.com/provinces/08_east_azarbaijan/08_east_azarbaijan.php or Azarbayjan-e-Sharqi in google map and so on).--Microinjection (talk) 04:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard that there is a uniform transliteration system in use for Farsi. Could someone point me to evidence of such a thing? john k (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You may use Google translate (choose Persian). However it doesn't work properly yet.--Microinjection (talk) 04:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

How is google translate a standard and uniform transliteration system? What I was saying is, I'm not sure I understand why "Azarbaijan" rather than "Azerbaijan" is supposed to be the correct transliteration. john k (talk) 06:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Azerbaijan is a common word which is used widely to calling the region in English (most of dictionaries and encyclopedias have used the word). The Azerbaijani word for the province is Sharqi-Azerbaijan; the Farsi name is Azerbaijan-e-Sharghi; Currently East Azarbaijan is used in the article. I'm offering change the name to East Azerbaijan since already the first term is translated from Farsi to English and it is used as an adjective so we have to use English word for the second term also (Azerbaijan).--Microinjection (talk) 13:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand how "Azarbaijan" vs. "Azerbaijan" is an issue of translation. They look to me as though they are both alternative transliterations of the same word. Unlike with Mandarin, there is no single agreed upon transliteration of Perso-Arabic script, so far as I'm aware. In Azerbaijan, the Latin alphabet is used, and spells the name as such. I'm just wondering why we should ever use "Azarbaijan." john k (talk) 13:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all again for these insightful comments. Following my review of the facts, I must conclude that the proper term for this article is Azerbaijan. The term Azerbaijan is used in the Wikipedia articles on Iran and many associated Iranian articles. Even if the wordings were seen to be of equal merit (such as color and colour), for the sake of consistency we should go with the more used Azerbaijan. —Matheuler 02:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Pardon about my delay in responding .About the transliteration of Perso-Arabic to English , the word آذربایجان in Persian , has the Diacritic Fatḥa, that makes it Azarbaijan in English transliteration .In Matheuler's search in Wikipedia , keep in mind that a recent movement in changing the pages that use the word Azarbaijan is in progress ( as an example , [14], [15],[16] and [17]) that may have effect the whole outcome and your judgment (all from 5 to 11 September ).
And to add , in using the name that is more similar to Azeri dialect , than to Persian ,in English ; there is concerns about neutrality (NPOV).By using a name that makes Republic of Azerbaijan same as province of Azarbaijan , there can be doubts about the legitimacy of artificial borders .Although the name Azerbaijan in historical sense was never been applied to the north region of Aras river until recently (1918).--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for participation everybody. About Alborz comment; just please notice that the original article for the province was East Azerbaijan at very beginning and it has been changed afterward. About the conflict that you have mentioned, between Republic of Azerbaijan and Iranian provinces, you have notice that Azerbaijan is used for whole of these lands (Iranian provinces and Republic of Azerbaijan). As you know from historical point of view both of the republic of Azerbaijan and Iranian provinces were part of the same land. It is like North Korea and South Korea; It is not convenient to calling with different names two parts of a same land.--Microinjection (talk) 13:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

To say that the independent part is "Azerbaijan" and the Iranian part is "Azarbaijan" is to create an arbitrary distinction where there is no real difference - the two areas have the same name, because, until the eighteenth century or so, they were the same region. john k (talk) 15:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The north part's name has been Arran and Shirvan .The South region of Aras has been the Azarbaijan (See History of the name Azerbaijan).--Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Alborz; What do you mean? Do you mean we have to change the name of Republic of Azerbaijan? By the way if as an assumption we accept the idea that Northern part is Aran and have to called Aran then there will be no conflict (as you said before) to calling Iranian provinces "East Azerbaijan" or "West Azerbaijan" and it is the editors of Republic of Azerbaijan (Aran) should worry about the permeable conflict. But I think that many people think that the Azerbaijan never called Aran and it is just a claim to separating the Azerbaijanis (just lets to not entering another conflict in this page which is belong originally to anther issue). Thank you!--Microinjection (talk) 16:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

No I don't mean to change the Azerbaijan Republic's name ! But I say giving weight to one name that unify the provinces and the republic , may cause conflict .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

And again , As an Iranian Azeri , that is of my concern to separate my my own part(Iranian) from foreign part (if it is under the Wikipedian roles and if it is the dominant name in English).It is not the same as North Korea and South Korea , but rather like Alsace and Lorraine(See Treaty of Turkmenchay and Treaty of Gulistan) --Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

But the point is that English usage does not distinguish between the Iranian part and the ex-Soviet part in the way you want it to. English calls them both "Azerbaijan." As I understand it, Persian also calls them both by the same name. You are creating a distinction where none exists, which is OR. To get to the Alsace-Lorraine comparison you point to, the issue is as if we were talking about 1910, and insisted on calling the French part of Lorraine "Lorraine" and the German part "Lothringen," in spite of the fact that in French both parts are called Lorraine, and in German both parts are called Lothringen, and English has always used "Lorraine" for the whole region. Except that at least "Lothringen" is an actual distinct German name for Lorraine. "Azarbaijan" appears to simply be an alternative romanization. john k (talk) 17:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be OR to follow the argument: since "the most common transliteration for the name of Republic of Azerbaijan uses Azerbaijan" and since its name is taken from Persian Azarbaijan, hence for example the article of "West Azarbaijan province" should be named "West Azerbaijan province"? I would note the guideline WP:Naming conventions (geographic names):"1. The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." and the fact (checked above using google) that 1. "West Azarbaijan province" is the dominant "exact term" (in fact the number of "West Azerbaijan province" is so low that can be ignored), 2. Even the shorter term "West Azarbaijan" comes more popular than "West Azerbaijan". 3. Note that the question is not about the "non existing article" on "Azerbaijan (not the republic)". Since the exact terms/title we need are in fact the most common names, I think we should use them. Reasoning like "Azerbaijan" is more common than "Azarbaijan" is even wrong if we analyse it: The google test show that "Azerbaijan" is more common than "Azarbaijan", but how many of them talk about the provinces and not about the language? how many of them talk about "Azerbaijani culture" and not about the provinces? how many of them talk about the language... so even that reasoning seems to be a misinterpretation of "google tests" and the criterion "more common". Xashaiar (talk) 03:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Alborz; always I'm trying to avoid affecting my personal affair from what I'm writing in an article of Wikipedia (I'm sure that you are doing the same). As John said in Farsi or even in Azerbaijani language which is used in Iranian Azerbaijan Provinces, there is a unique word to calling both regions (Republic of Azerbaijan + the provinces). Beside this I remember that you said before that if we are about calling the region we have to use Azerbaijan.--Microinjection (talk) 17:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

About transliteration: There are several standards (including ALA-LC romanization and the Iranica scheme) for transliterating Perso-Arabic script to Latin, and in almost all of them "-َ" is transliterated as a (so "آذَربایجان" can be transliterated as Āzarbāijān or Āzarbāyjān). In Latin Azeri alphabet, this "-َ" is shown by ә and when they use standard Latin alphabet, they use e to approximate it (though this hides the difference between distinct Azeri vowels ә and e). Also in the Turkish alphabet, they show that vowel (or in fact, a vowel closely related to it) with e. So the difference in Azerbaijan and Azarbaijan is mostly related to the difference in the transliteration traditions for Perso-Arabic scripts and for Turkish and Azeri. Alefbe (talk) 03:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Microinjection; I said we have to use Azerbaijan for the whole region because that is the most common English usage and we have to admit that as Wikipedian guidelines says . But in the case of East and West Azarbaijan provinces , the most common English usage is with a.In Wikipedian guidelines , I did not find anything about preference of analogy factor to commonness factor:I mean because an analogy exists between name of Republic and province , we may not neglect the written guideline . If we put more weight on relation between ethnic regions(out of Wiki-guidelines) and less on official names(under Wiki-guidelines), that is OR.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Alborz; The discussion is going to become a very long one. The reason that we asked the third party's opinion was to accept their opinion and to avoid more discussion. Of course they have seen whole of our discussion and they have considered Wikipedia's rules in their decision. Thank you again.--Microinjection (talk) 13:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Prolongation of debate is not necessarily a negative factor .I don't think we are in a hurry .In third party's opinion , I was absent when Matheuler was in discussion plus the last sentence he wrote was this one :"The term Azerbaijan is used in the Wikipedia articles on Iran and many associated Iranian articles".Indeed , most of the articles that he was pointing to , have been changed very recently and they can't be considered a base for that judgment;one of the reasons that made me to open this discussion was that widespread change itself ! After showing that bias in gathering basic information in my message , I didn't get any response .I will sure accept the opinion that is from a neutral and logical point , but at least I have to know the logic behind the result and I may resolve my questions and difficulties.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Alborz; from my side elongation of a dynamic discussion is not a matter at all, just our situation is look like this: you have provided whole of your proofs and I have done the same. Based on the proofs a third party has given his opinion. So it seems that it is time to closing the discussion. Well, of course third party made his decision based on our discussions and the proofs that we have provided for him (based on a neutral judgment). May be better way to understanding more on the logic behind the decision is to asking him to provide more detailed information directly.--Microinjection (talk) 22:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

In Wikipedia , Third opinion is for informally resolving disputes involving only two editors. If any more complex dispute cannot be resolved through talk page discussion, we can follow the other steps in the dispute resolution process. The informal nature of the third opinion process is valid only if other editors like Xashaiar and Alefbe also agree , and if I get reassured about representing all of my proofs.As an example , in searching for "East Azerbaijan" in Wikipedian articles just before the time of Matheuler search , one editor (guess who?!) have changed 30 out of 118 articles in a way that original "East Azarbaijan" has been changed to "East Azerbaijan" ! Do you think these changes - just in time of on going dispute - makes a good base for a research ? Still if the third party (Matheuler) , says the changes where not important in his opinion , I will accept his judgment, and there will only remain other editors that may change their opinion or may not change it ! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:07, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Alborz; As you may notice the articles are changed after very first discussion when you clearly said that we have to change the word (as it means there to Azerbaijan)in whole of the articles. I mean this phrases "Well, I have not thought about that ! But have to admit that is a good point .....Until then , maybe it's better not to change it only in this article , and change it in all of the other articles that use the word....". After your message that you wanna to have more discussion there should be no other change except additions, I think. For right now according to whole of the proofs and opinions I think that it is very clear that which opinion is the correct one. By the way you may ask the Matheuler again for a another opinion again (I think you may request on his talk page as well as here). It is ok for me. But before asking him there is a question: will you accept his opinion, or not there are further conditions??? Thank you again.--Microinjection (talk) 12:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

You said :"For right now according to whole of the proofs and opinions I think that it is very clear that which opinion is the correct one."
I think if it was so clear, then there would be no such a debate :but it is not clear ! The real thing that matters is not the article itself but answering all questions that there is, and answering every person with a question is more important than compromising about a mere word by two person (You and Me).Say I will accept the outcome ; then what would be the answer of other questioners?
In previous debates that was alike this one , the most important factor that was considered tobe decisive was the Google testing , why this time that is not valid ?(Please see the debate that was I participating in it):according to that, due to Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Proper nouns: "The three key principles are..."

Criterion	East Azarbaijan	East Azerbaijan
1. Most commonly used name in English	1	0
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	1	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	0	0
Total	2	0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

At least I think it is very clear in the mind of very fresh readers like third party (as he explained: "Those responses are very clear."). And I'm sure that if you look with a neutral opinion without prejudice, you can reach to the same result. But as I said before if you are insisting on your own response you can ask Matheuler to more detailed answer. It seems that he is not checking this pace anymore so you may write on his own talk page directly also. --Microinjection (talk) 23:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I did not reach that result . And the logic still stands up . Anyway , last time when you wrote in Matheuler,he asked you not to disturb him in his talk page , and that was the reason that I did not write to him , but anyway now when I decide to write him , it appears that he has no interest in Wikipedia anymore and deleted his page .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way the discussion is still remain open! I don't have any new idea in this matter. I think that more discussion in this issue is useless and it is just wasting of time. --Microinjection (talk) 15:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Alborz; I found another comparison way. You may try Google book search which is showing the use of the word inside the books and scientific materials. Here is the results: East Azerbaijan = 630, vs East Azarbaijan=356.--Microinjection (talk) 14:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you the same as the user whom you reverted? (diff)? Xashaiar (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

John Kenney said :But the point is that English usage does not distinguish between the Iranian part and the ex-Soviet part in the way you want it to.The tests shows English does use them in different forms , but maybe you are right if you say "...English does not INTENTIONALLY distinguish between the Iranian part and the ex-Soviet part ....".That means unintentionally that deference exists , as it is evident in the above researches.It does exists perhaps because when an English language person encounters the with the province, he or she hears a voice and uses a form , and when he or she gets in touch from Russian side ,hears or see e voice and uses e form.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the situation in like Darvoz and Darwaz. Both are the same name and both are pronounced almost the same way in Afghanistan and Tajikstan, but for spelling, the transliteration traditions are different. Alefbe (talk) 19:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the each of naming proposals between East Azerbaijan or East Azarbaijan by beginning a new line in this section with *'''East Azerbaijan''' or *'''East Azarbaijan''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• East Azarbaijan ; Since it is most commonly used name in English(for province) and it is current undisputed official name of entity.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
• East Azerbaijan if I was looking this area up on Wikipedia this is what I would type. Impatial observation by --Alchemist Jack (talk) 16:28, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
• I don't see any reason for the systematic spelling change in all pages (from East Azarbaijan to East Azerbaijan). I think this type of spelling war is just disruptive. Alefbe (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Well whole of the discussion was about changing Azarbaijan to Azerbaijan.--Microinjection (talk) 13:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Informal result

The survey didn't have many participants , but I accept the opinion of "Alchemist Jack" as the Neutral Opinion.It appears that native English language persons consider analogy between the country's name (Azerbaijan) and the province important , then perhaps the Azerbaijan is more correct.I can't represent the other participant's opinions (Xashaiar and Alefbe) , and consider my opinion as the result of Third opinion which is informal and if we are going to change the name in all of the other articles , I think it's better to talk to all involved editors first. --Alborz Fallah (talk) 14:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Formal English, Ark & Azerbaijan

First, as I noticed, Tabriz page has many informal English words, e.g. "by the way", "till", etc. Please remember that it is a formal text and please avoid using these kind of words. Second, we should devote a separate part for PURPOSELY GRADUAL destruction of "Ark of Tabriz" by the government by means of construction project of "Mosal'la" just next to it. However, I mentioned this roughly in the "Monument and Landmark" section. Third, I think "West Azerbaijan" is better that "West Azarbaijan". Because Azerbaijan is one territory and was divided during a war. Therefore, when you use Azarbaijan (e.g. East Azarbaijan) you distinguish between parts of one land, although there are located in different countries. For instance, Ireland is spelled identically both in Ireland Republic and in the United Kingdom, in spit of this fact that some part of it is located in Britain territory.--Yasha Azar (talk) 20:14, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The historical name of the parts north of the Aras river has not been Azerbaijan ( or Azarbaijan ) .In time of Russian occupation the name was Arran and Shirvan ; but the common English name seems tobe Azerbaijan rather than Azarbaijan . I agree about the Tabriz citadel ( Ark ) needing a section --Alborz Fallah (talk) 20:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Tarwi-Tarwakisa

says The Cambridge History of Iran, Tarwi-Tarwakisa, now Tabriz :http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=kMLKgzj5afMC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=Tarwakisa&source=bl&ots=FZ26brdRC4&sig=ifI4AjONcWu9AozjKEHkUlOfaBo&hl=tr&ei=iQyFS6WdN8SOjAfti8SJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tarwakisa&f=false

(& I heard Tarwakisa before...) = Tebriz (in Turkish) Böri (talk) 11:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Removed parts

Recently I have noted that some names have been removed from the well known people's list. For example Mohammad Taqi Khan Raf'at Tabrizi, Naser Merqati, Yadollah Maftun Amini. I would like to know who has deleted these names and why. قيصري (talk) 06:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Another example is removing Ahad Hoseini from this page. The editor who has deleted this person's name from "Tabriz" should be a person who knows almost nothing about Tabriz. Ahad Hoseini is a globally well known sculptor and painter whose works are in international art museums. Any responsible person could have a short surfing on the Internet and could find plenty of data about him. I suggest to the chief editor of this page to roll back all the changes made by that editor. قيصري (talk) 07:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• I added two of the above. Yadollah Maftun Amini did not live in Tabriz.This isn't List of people from Tabriz which is not very good at all, too easy to use it for self-publicity or just misunderstanding that it is not really a list of people from Tabriz. Dougweller (talk) 14:51, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Tebriz

in Turkish. Böri (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Tabriz profile.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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"Sample of Tabrizi traditional foods"

I didn't realize Fanta was Tabriz's traditional drink. lol --BorgQueen (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The coke and the presented yugurt are not part of the traditional food in Tabriz. --F4fluids (talk) 15:49, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Persian Nationalistic bias of the article

Unfortunately, the article has a general tendency to emphasize on the political agenda that "Azerbaijan is an inseparable part of Iran". As a result, the information has been delicately twisted to conform with a particular political belief. In my opinion, the article should be refined with the goal of providing honest and unbiased information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdossamad Talebpour (talk • contribs) 22:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Contradicts Itself

The article apparently contradicts itself. Is Tabriz the 4th or 5th most populous city in Iran? 93.143.30.140 (talk) 13:26, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. I corrected the contradicting part.--F4fluids (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of Tabriz

What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 13:03, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

City of the firsts

Due to its location as a western gateway of Iran, many modern developments have been adopted first in this city, leading to its moniker as a "city of firsts". These include:

• Iran's first printing house was founded in Tabriz (1811).
• Iran's first modern school was founded in Tabriz by Hassan Roshdieh (1888).
• The first Iranian special school for deaf children was founded in Tabriz by Jabbar Baghcheban (1924).
• The first Iranian special school for blind students was founded in Tabriz by a German mission (1926).
• The first Iranian kindergarten was founded in Tabriz by Jabbar Baghcheban (1923).
• Iran's first modern-style municipal government was set up in Tabriz.
• Tabriz Chamber of Commerce was the first of its kind founded in Iran (1906).
• The first public libraries in modern Iran were founded in Tabriz.
• Iran's first cinema was founded in Tabriz (1900), while the first cinema in Tehran was founded by a Tabrizi (1921).
• Tabriz was the first city in Iran to install a telephone system (about 1900).

References

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Sister city

The general policy of the City of Vienna is not to sign any twin or sister city agreements with other cities. Instead Vienna has only cooperation agreements in which specific cooperation areas are defined. Moreover these agreements are limited in time, and presently there is no such agreement with the city of Tabriz (there has been, yes, but not now). See [18]. So it is incorrect to claim Tabriz is twinned with Vienna. Sapphorain (talk) 13:56, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

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Is modern Tabriz really divided into 10 districts?

We list 20. Doug Weller talk 18:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

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File nominated for deletion on commons

file=c:File:Colonel pesian.JPG|patten=No source indicated subpage= 

Message déposé automatiquement par un robot le 06:45, 2 January 2018 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harideepan (talk • contribs)

Languages other than Persian

See this. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Districts sections a mess

Tabriz only has 10 municipal districts, numbered 1-10.official site[19] It seems to have had 22 earlier in this decade.[20] Doug Weller talk 10:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

name of tabriz in azerbaijani script?

WHy there is need to be azerbaijani script in an iranian province which the official language of the country is Persian?while there are both same script and thing.Simsala111 (talk) 03:23, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Tags in "Firsts" in Iran

This article is currently on the Front Page as part of Today's Featured Picture, and as a general principle orange tags should be resolved before posting there. "Firsts" in Iran is tagged with orange tag {{more citations needed}} and the yellow tag {{tone}}. However, it seems that the orange tag has already been resolved; all points in the list are referenced. If there's no objection to removing the {{more citations needed}} tag, then I or someone else can go ahead and do it. The yellow tag may stay; some of the grammar is odd.130.233.213.141 (talk) 08:42, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

After nearly two weeks and no objections, I have removed the orange tag in this section.130.233.213.141 (talk) 11:46, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

typo - needs correction

"the city was captured for Russia in 182 by General Prince Eristov, who marched into the city with 3,000 soldiers"

This is obviously meant to say "in 182X". I tried to uncover "X" by reviewing the history of Tabriz article, but found nothing supporting in that page. I need to move on to something else, and wanted to flag the found issue. Cheers. Scootz555 (talk) 14:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)