Talk:Syncopation

Stressed beats in 4/4

The second sentence of this article reads "For example, in 4/4 time, the first and third beats are normally stressed."

It is my understanding that for the most part this refers mostly to 'western' styles of music, whereas the generalisation for most other types of music is that the 2nd & 4th beats are usually stressed.

As I am not sufficiently sure of this to warrant editing the article, I would like to see other opinions and evidence.

I think the important part is "normally". Hyacinth 10:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

What about reggae? There, the offbeats are normally stressed. ILike2BeAnonymous 10:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

see back beat 65.81.149.73 22:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Surely the inclusion of back beat in the introduction is wrong, in any case? A constant backbeat has no syncopation (no shift or juxtiposition of rhythms). A single simple rhythm cannot be syncopated without a shift (eg from swung to straight and back, or a skip) or juxtiposition (ie some parts played straight, others plaid swung)? A back beat interrupted by some other rhythm might give the syncopated effect, but not just by itself. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 04:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Syncopation is necessary

in order for music not to sound too boring or monotonous, there are some "silencing" techniques that are used within rhythm for emphasis. For example, a silent third beat emphasis is common to be heard as a little pause in melody and a break of the drums in soul, or hip hop.

Audio examples?

Can someone upload some example music?

Three examples added. What do you all think? Hyacinth (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am curious if what I heard, is what you intended. There were a series of identical notes, then a little bit of noise (limited to a twentieth of a second, or a fiftieth of a second or so), then a cessation of sound, then a resumption of identical notes. Is syncopation really an absence of music, contained on either side by notes of an identical character? I think I would be asking too much for sound spectrograms, but I think the examples were worth listening to. I am curious about the brief amount of noise. You know, like when you are connecting wires together, when testing out the schematic for an oscillator. The noise might have been an unintended artifact not present in the original composition. It was so brief, I was wondering if it was a transmission problem on my end, or a problem with the player. The duration was much less than any of the notes preceding the silence, or following it.198.177.27.28 (talk) 07:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

What you heard where? Which example are you referring to? Hyacinth (talk) 08:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The examples that were uploaded.198.177.27.29 (talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly: there are multiple examples, all with titles, whereas the paragraph above only describes one example without giving its title. Hyacinth (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe the problem is at your end since the first two audio example contain little to no silence, are not midi files, and in addition to percussion noises contain piano notes while the last is also not a midi file and has a steady "boom-chick" provided by bass & snare drums. See Wikipedia:Media help (Ogg). Hyacinth (talk) 20:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Technical

This page is unenlightening for a non-musician - and the stuff about "transformation" is downright intimidating. Surely more could be said about the basics of syncopation? Particularly in the light of music history and ethno-musicology. And reference is made to "Narmour's prosodic rules" - but no work is cited in the bibliography. If analogies are going to be made to verse meter (the reference to "trochees" for example, which doesn't link to anything about music), then that analogy should be explained and illustrated.

I agree with you. And, in my own opinion, the main article could be improved if all of those diagrams were deleted. They don't make a lick's worth of sense to those of us who don't understand the notation commonly used in recording music on paper, nor are we in a position to see if the compositions add to the article or subtract from it. So, in cases of doubt, delete it.

If someone does, however, decide to upload some .RAW or .WAV files, maybe she should remember to include examples of syncopation in near eastern music? Are there any famous ragas that use syncopation? 198.177.27.18 (talk) 04:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I oppose the deletion of "diagrams" which are useful and informative to those who do read music. Under which policy would the deletion of those images be justified? Hyacinth (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, the rhythmic aspect of music notation is the most straight forward part to learn, and teaching oneself is 1/2 to 3/4 of what Wikipedia is all about. Note heads and flags indicate rhythmic proportions, or fractions of time. Examples containing only one kind of note head and flag are thus fairly easy to figure out, such as the example of "latin transformation", containing only eight notes. Hyacinth (talk) 18:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Expansion

What are the basics of syncopation that are missing? History and ethnology/ethnography, for example, are often not simple subjects. Hyacinth (talk) 03:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

How would a deaf person determine the presence of a beat, as opposed to the omission of a beat? If you are going to start with the basics, you might as well start there. 198.177.27.12 (talk) 03:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Misuse of "missing beat"

I don't think it's correct to say "a missing beat where a stressed one would normally be expected". If the beat itself were missing, then it would be something like a single 3/4 bar in the midst of a piece otherwise in 4/4. The beat is a location in time where (i.e., when) there might or might not be a note.

I'd say an example of syncopation would be a missing *note* on a beat that would normally be stressed, not for the beat itself to be missing.

MusicScience (talk) 01:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe that is a misinterpretation of what van der Merwe meant by "missed". I believe I clarified the article a little. Hyacinth (talk) 00:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe I clarified it further just now by changing "missed" to "empty". I maintain that the *beat* is still there even if it's a rest. MusicScience (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is not the terminology that is used. If one is going to be highly literal one could argue that a beat cannot be "empty" either, since it is always full of time, and there is no such thing as pure "silence". Hyacinth (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Attempt at explanation for laymen...

The most basic level of syncopation is an accentuated "miss" of a strong beat. Strong beats are beats 1 and 3 in the time signature of 4/4. In laymen's terms, if you were counting to four in a steady manner, like "1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4" then suddenly you said "TWO" very loudly (accented) compared to the other notes, you'd be syncopating. You could also do this with "FOUR". This level of syncopation is found in all types of music that have any sort of interesting rhythm. The next level of syncopation an accentuated "miss" of the pulse of the time signature, which is the quarter note beat in the case of 4/4. Now, we are counting the beats and also a single division of the beat: "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and." If we were to accentuate one of the "and"s in there, it would be this level of syncopation. This level of syncopation is found in more rhythmically exciting music, dance, pop, funk, etc. Finally, when we simply go "against rhythmic expections", we are syncopating. This is of course, very hard to describe. Feel free to ask questions on my talk page. Microcosmmm (talk) 03:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Strange wording, no?

"Although some musical styles have built their character around syncopation, it has been an important element of musical composition since at least the Middle Ages."

I'm not a native speaker, but this sounds strange to me. 'Although XYZ' seems to imply that later in the sentence something will be mentioned that will (at least apparently) contradict XYZ, but that doesn't happen here. Could someone perhaps correct me if I'm wrong, otherwise I will rewrite the sentence in a while, for example to:

"Syncopation has been an important element of musical composition since at least the Middle Ages. For some musical styles, such as jazz and ragtime, syncopation is an essential part of their character."

- Minvogt (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a better sentence(s) to me. And I think I wrote the one that is there now! Steve Pastor (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"Satisfaction" midi example is confusing

The gradual syncopation of the "satisfaction" example is enlighthing, but reading the score while listening to the MIDI clip is unnecessarily confusing. Why does the MIDI file play example 2, 3, 4 and 4 from the score, instead of 1, 2, 3 and 4? Also, I think playing the actual tones from the riff on a tuned instrument instead of the "sticks" sound would also improve the understanding without violating "fair use". Mumiemonstret (talk) 10:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Try File:Satisfaction transformations.mid. Hyacinth (talk) 20:08, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I can't get no satisfaction out of this example.

"The phrasing of "Satisfaction", a good example of syncopation,[5] is derived here from its theoretic unsyncopated form by making the lyric "I can't" a trochee, applying a backbeat transformation, and finally before-the-beat transformations to "can't" and "no".[9]" In simple english, where is the syncopation? (I'm not a musician. To me the sound clip doesn't sound anything like the song as sung in the original rock version.)211.225.33.104 (talk) 02:38, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Replaceable

See also: Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review § Thirteenth

How is the file File:Satisfaction transformations.PNG replaceable, and what would/could replace it? Hyacinth (talk) 19:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

It is just a good example of the style, it only takes someone who is willing to create a their own free example. Werieth (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying someone should make an example of a fake rock song? Hyacinth (talk) 21:26, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Some would just need to create another example that does not fall under our non-free content policy. (IE a free version). All that is needed to replace the file is a example from a non-copyrighed work. Werieth (talk) 22:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

So, a rock song from more than 100 years ago? Hyacinth (talk) 22:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

By "the style", do you mean the genre of rock music or the technique of syncopation? Hyacinth (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Since the article is about syncopation the technique of syncopation would be what I am referring to. Werieth (talk) 22:21, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

When you say, "their own free example," are you referring to an example of the syncopation in "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" that is somehow free, an example of syncopation in a familiar rock song that is free, or something else? Hyacinth (talk) 17:45, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter what the source of the example is (any sample from a non-free work will also be non-free). You just need to find a good example what is not non-free. Werieth (talk) 18:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

What makes this different from a supposedly valid free use? Hyacinth (talk) 00:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

The media you want to use is copyrighted. free use isnt under such restrictive laws. Werieth (talk) 02:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Fair-use is not a reason to delete a file, it's a reason to keep it. Hyacinth (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence

Has '... to make a piece of music, making part or all of a tune or piece of music ...' - could the seeming repetition be rewritten? Jackiespeel (talk) 13:04, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Audio samples appear broken

The first 9 of the 17 audio samples (.wav files?) in this article appear to be broken. When I click on any of them, a blue "loading"? bar moves across the top edge of the window. But it locks up in this state. The audio file never loads nor plays. It's necessary to do a hard reload of the web page to get it out of the locked up state.

The last 8 of the 17 audio samples play just fine.

I have tried different browsers but the results are the same: the first 9 lock up and the last 8 play without any problem.

Are you experiencing the same behavior?

What is the best way to pursue a resolution to this issue? KS on Wikipedia (talk) 10:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Confusing/wrong info in intro

"Syncopation can also occur when a strong harmony is simultaneous with a weak beat, for instance, when a 7th-chord is played on the second beat of a 3 4 measure or a dominant chord is played at the fourth beat of a 4 4 measure. The latter occurs frequently in tonal cadences for 18th- and early-19th-century music and is the usual conclusion of any section."

I (prof. musician) have never heard of this harmonic interpretation of a syncope, and I have no idea what a "strong harmony" is supposed to be. This is going to need a source. Also, music usually concludes with the tonica in the classical period, not with the dominant.

"A hemiola (the equivalent Latin term is sesquialtera) can also be considered as one straight measure in three with one long chord and one short chord and a syncope in the measure thereafter, with one short chord and one long chord. Usually, the last chord in a hemiola is a (bi-)dominant, and as such a strong harmony on a weak beat, hence a syncope."

I understand what is being explained here, but that took a lot of effort. But the last chord of a hemiola is not "usually a (bi-)dominant" (whatever a bidominant is—Danish subdominant?), and it repeats the aforementioned mistake of strong harmony. Douweziel (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)