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Archive 1

Taken to the moon?

Neil Armstrong took this symphony to the Moon during the Apollo 11 mission, the first Moon landing mission, in 1969.

In what sense? Did he take a recording, or a score, or something else? --Camembert

Good question - almost certainly a recording, but I don't know which technology (LP or tape?). Sadly, I only found one comment about this story on the internet [1] - search for Apollo. Let me just say that I was told that the music was being played when they landed - which is not a bad idea given the name "From the new world"... --Lumidek 02:00, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

About my removing the interwikilinks — their failure to work for me may be browser-specific (Safari (web browser) 1.2.4), might be a good idea for me to put them back...Schissel - bowl listen 04:09, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Try it now - I've fiddled with it, and I think it should work. The problem, I think, is that fr, de and various other pedias "understand" the caron-R character, but en does not. Got around it by pointing the interwiki to a redirect. --Camembert

I (had to? well, ended up...) us(e/ed/ing) a similar patch for Bacewicz, alas. (Different but very similar problem.) *nod* Hope the next version of the software clears this up, even if it also deprecates — etc as I have also heard. Schissel - bowl listen 20:06, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

How accurate is the statement that the second movement is the most popular? I frequently find references to the symphony based on the fourth movement because of John William's score for Jaws. Olessi 23:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

No. 9 or No. 5 ??

Curse of the ninth mentions that this was originally published as his 5th Symphony, and the orchestral parts I've played from are also titled: "Symphony in E Minor (No. 5, Op. 95) / From the New World" --Sommerfeld 14:05, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

*Indeed. Symphony 1 (Bells of Zlonice) was outright lost until the 20th century, and symphonies 2-4 (B-flat, E-flat, D minor) were at least not published, I believe, until then. In the meanwhile the accepted ordering was--

  • Symphony 1 in D (now symphony 6)
  • Symphony 2 in D minor (now symphony 7)
  • Symphony 3 in F (now symphony 5)
  • Symphony 4 in G (now symphony 8)
  • Symphony 5 in E minor (now symphony 9).

Other works of his - string quartets, just for instance- have double opus numbers, also (publisher- Simrock- wanting Dvorak to recycle older works while he gave the impression to the public that they were newer, I think. The G major string quintet got this treatment. This is one reason to use the catalog numbers - Burghauser, B. - instead of opus numbers - to refer to Dvorak's music as unambiguously as possible, in my honest opinion.) Schissel-nonLop! 01:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Article Title

The article's title is misspelled: it should be "Dvořák". Ardric47 08:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

  • See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). First, the convention is to use the most commonly used name, not necessarily the most accurate. Second, there are problems with using some diacritics in article titles; I'm not sure whether this applies here. There is no consensus about what should be done in the case where the native spelling of a name is identical to the most common English spelling except for diacritics. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be no problem with the article of the composer himself, Antonín Dvořák. Ardric47 13:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

It has been suggested that Symphony No.9 "From The New World" be merged into this article or section. Please indicate your Support or Oppose opinion below, and include any thoughts along with it. Please be sure to sign your opinion with ~~~~.

Went ahead and did it. Here is the text of the article, if there's anything there worth adding here: Alcuin 12:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== History ==

Symphony No. 9 in E minor "From The New World," Op. 95 by Czech composer Antonín Dvořák (September 8, 1841 – May 1, 1904) is considered the composer's best symphonic work, and it also ranks among the best symphonies of the 19th century. Dvořák worked on it from early 1893 to May 24 of the same year, in the first year of his stay in America. The circumstances under which it was composed also determined its character and purpose. The special atmosphere of American folk music is unmistakeable in the symphony, although Dvořák made no direct use of Indian or other songs. What, then, can one actually hear in that symphony?

== Characteristics ==

More than anything else, one should note its synthetic character. That synthesis is certainly not limited to American elements, motifs or intonations, nor to Czech ones, nor – to adopt a new angle – elements which can be attributed to Dvořák's impressions of America and his nostagia for his distant homeland. The synthesis can also be said to embrace Dvořák's entire experience in symphony writing, the essentials of his approach, and even the principles of the so-called absolute and programme music. It would be a futile exercise, of course, to try to construe that programme as a continuous epic plot, despite the temptation to see the inspiration for the two middle movements in Longfellow's poem "The Song of Hiawatha," certainly an object of Dvořák's avid interest. However, neither the Scherzo, believed sometimes to picture the dances at Hiawatha's wedding, nor the Largo, which more than one analyst has described as a "burial in the forest," can be said to reflect any screen from the poem; indeed, the whole structure and development of the work (of definitely Czech coloring in the Scherzo's Trio) would seem to deny any such impressions. Here, like in the opening and final movements, the composer merely exploits the impressions of the New World which he has found fascinating – and there was much to be fascinated with: the new character of America's life, its exuberant civilization, its wildly beautiful – but also, as Dvořák says in his letters, unpeopled – nature, and the Americans' ostentatious self-assurance and democratic attitudes.

All that can be heard in the symphony, and one could even match the various impressions and stimuli with corresponding themes and musical images, albeit at the risk of over-simplification, since none of the themes is unequivocal, and all of them are transformed in the variations and in conflict with other themes. To be sure, the introduction to the "New World" gives a feeling of alienation, but the first subject, a kind of "leading motive" of the whole symphony, enters immediately with a self-assured fanfare, to progress to a definitely Czech coloring in increasingly numerous shades. The second and final subjects reveal obvious imagery of the black slaves' struggle for freedom, which Dvořák discovered in the the Negro spirituals. Largo, with its elegiac coloring, also owes much to the Negro spirituals, until the variations to the middle section finally succumb to a burst of rebellious vigor. The driving dance-like Scherzo, with a markedly Czech Trio, carries the symphony to the even wilder final movement, in which someone has even alleged to have heard the click of telegraph messages. Without describing to such over-simplification, we can let Dvořák communicate his impressions of America, whose chaotic and multifaceted character he found overwhelming. He emphasizes the image of America by "thematic nodes," in which distant subjects from different movements are intertwined. Moreover, Dvořák reflects here his nostalgia for his homeland, as well as comparisons and relationships between his old and new domicile. The supreme relationship is the voice of the people and the struggle for universal freedom and brotherhood of men.

I'm placing here all of the items which are unreferenced in the popular culture section of the article. Once they are referenced, they can be added back into the article. There may be duplicates as this list gets longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nihonjoe (talk • contribs) 23:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

More unreferenced items

Please don't reinsert these without references.

I would add that I don't see the encyclopedic value in simply mentioning a stray appearance of a few bars of an extremely popular symphony. I would encourage people to resist the temptation unless the symphony really forms an important part of the score, to the point where it becomes identified with the game or movie (e.g. Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 and the movie Babe (film), or the Mozart piano concerto it was that they used in Elvira Madigan. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup Tag

I've added a cleanup tag because it seems this page has almost become about an article 'Dvorak's 9th Symphony in popular culture' rather than 'Dvorak's 9th Symphony'. There is so little about the symphony in this article, for example the cor anglais solo in the Largo, the resemblant openings of the scherzo to that of Beethoven's 9th Symphony's Scherzo, etc.' Maybe we should create a separate page for the 9th Symphony in popular culture. Centy 10:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, we need clean up here, but don't create that separate page. Unless it's something important like Esperanto, and even then it's a stretch, we don't need a page like that. Really, it opens up the encyclopedia to whoever wants to find the most obscure reference. Anyways, it's almost ridiculous to put in all of these articles; since all this music is out of copyright, movie producers can choose whatever.
One significant classical reference I can think that is significant is Ride of the Valkyries in Apocalypse Now, and that's because the song was made famous through that reference. A huge page I am vying for deletion is The Moonlight Sonata in popular culture, because honestly, I can think of one use for that list, and if one has that little knowledge about the piece in mind, Wikipedia shouldn't be the first and last resort. ALTON .ıl 07:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I too am all for cutting down the extent we discuss use in popular culture. This is one piece where the list should defintely just be small and concise. The only mention I would give is its use in a Hovis advert which pretty much cemented its popularity here in the UK. Centy 11:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, let's get on with it! I think if we can expand the real information on the symphony (I'm not that familiar with it), it would discourage those who wish to expand the superfluous info. ALTON .ıl 22:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
In the next week or two I plan to add a section on form with a medium-depth structural/thematic analysis (not quite as detailed the same section in Mahler's 2nd, to which I also contributed heavily). maestro 17:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's okay to cut down the lead. It seems a little top heavy when the TOC doesn't even fit on the first scroll! ALTON .ıl 07:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

South Park Sound Effect

I found a youtube link to the south park sound effect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09_5T8UmQQI . The Dvorak bit is about 51 seconds into it. The cartoon uses that sound quite frequently, and to me its obvious its taken from the symphony. Its just a silly pop-culture reference so its not that important relative to the other content of the page, but a citation was asked for. I'm not sure how to link "51 seconds into the following youtube clip" as a reference, though. DavidRF 03:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. It's a quotation from the symphony. Not sure how to deal with the citation issue. You could try citing it exactly as you suggest and see whether anyone objects. It's not strictly in line with the WP:V and is borderline with respect to original research, but certainly it certainly gives anyone who doubts the statement that the cartoon uses a fragment of the symphony a chance to judge for themselves. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The link to the video is no longer avilable. Please make aother link, please. --83.147.178.183 13:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Pop References...

...should not be put on this article page. Read the consensus reached at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music. Any reference to a use of classical music in a modern film or piece of pop music should be put on the relevant article page for that film or pop music, not on the article for the piece of classical music because people who hear the piece in a film aren't going to necessarily know what piece it is and come to this article.

Also WP:TRIVIA - bullet pointed references to modern day uses IS trivia. For the Goin' Home references, CONTRIBUTE to the article by making a Legacy section and writing about how this piece has become popular over the years since composition, but don't just make a bullet list of unconnected pop references, (See Ride of the Valkyries for a perfect example of how to write a section on popular culture). Centy – reply• contribs – 09:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Movements

I am requesting to crate a section called MOVEMENTS and put the movement information to it.

The dicussion on whether making "sections" on music articles have been raised recently and a reply said that there are a detail dicussion a long long time before.

My point is that if there is "Instrumentation" section, there also should be "Movement" section. (Addaick 12:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC))

Now the section just needs to be filled in. Added an expand tag. DavidRF 15:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Done

Tuba?

I'm trying to lock down the scoring. The "reference" here is more of a footnote than a citation. Steinberg does not list a tuba. Neither does IMSLP, but Hurwitz does. Is there a tuba in this work? DavidRF 16:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the full score book of Dover, Tuba is used only in the second movement. In other movements, bass trombone are used instead. (Addaick 12:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC))
Thanks for finding this. If you could add a citation for the score, that would be great. DavidRF 13:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Influences on other composers

It has been claimed that the theme from the largo was adapted into a spiritual-like song "Goin’ Home," by black composer Harry Burleigh, whom Dvořák met during his American sojourn, and lyricist William Arms Fisher,[9] but the song was actually written by Fisher and based on Dvorak's Largo theme.

Huh? The start of this single sentence seems to indicate that it is going to claim that "Goin' Home" was not based on the Largo theme from this symphony. But, it concludes by claiming it was. I'm not sure what the intention of the editor was. Was it to confirm that "Goin' Home" was based on Dvorak's symphony? Was it to deny that Burleigh was involved with "Goin' home?" I think some rewording is in order. SlowJog (talk) 20:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

In "One Piece"

lyrics of "Goin' Home"

The link for "Lyrics and discussion of Goin' Home" has only one version of the lyrics to this song. The lyrics listed in that page are completely foreign to me; makes me wonder how many versions exist? The ones I am familiar with (that come up with a simple Google search, by the way) are:


Going home, going home I’m jus' going home Quiet like, some still day I’m jus' going home

It’s not far, yes close by Through an open door Work all done, care laid by Going to fear no more

Mother’s there 'specting me Father’s waiting, too Lots of folk gathered there All the friends I knew

All the friends I knew

I’m going home

Nothing lost, all’s gain No more fret nor pain No more stumbling on the way No more longing for the day Going to roam no more

Morning star lights the way Restless dream all done Shadows gone, break of day Real life yes begun

There’s no break, aint no end Jus' a livin' on Wide awake with a smile Going on and on

Going home, going home I’m jus' going home It’s not far, yes close by Through an open door I’m jus' going home

Going home

The sheet music I have attributes the lyrics to "Fisher" and the music to Dvorak.

April Demes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.83.153.84 (talk) 05:01, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Jaws?

I snipped

The famous theme from Jaws is very similar to the beginning of the 4th movement.

because "similar" is pretty subjective. I don't think the similarity is all that striking—I'd never noticed it or perceived it that way when I saw Jaws. I doubt that many perceive it as being a reference to the symphony. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Actually the first time I heard the fourth movement of Dvorak Nine, the first thing that came into my mind was Jaws (I had seen the latter before hearing the former). As for similarities, Williams didn't copy note for note, but the resemblance I think is apparent. This is the score to Dvorak 9 (on the left-hand menu, scroll ALL the way down to where it says under Symphony No. 9 "Movement IV" - "Allegro con fuoco", and it will be the first page in the strings), and this is the Jaws theme music (the first musical examples). Some things to be pointed out - both examples feature for at least five continuous instances of the use of the minor second (half step) - in Dvorak between scale degrees 5 and (flat) 6 (it is in e minor), and in Williams between scale degrees 2 and (flat) 3 (it is apparently in d minor) unless it is in locrian mode, which is possible - the differences though are irrelevant because in the given passages no further development has been made in either piece. Both feature strings in their lower registers, and have relatively similar rhythms. Both are suspensful - in Dvorak 9 the composer sets a chilling mood that eventually rises in tension until the perfect authentic cadence between the 9th and 10th measures, and in Williams the use of suspense is obvious. As for other people besides myself recognizing a similarity, see [2] (second-to-last paragraph), [3] (the beginning of the second piece by Charles Sheehan) and [4] (the anti-Williams post at the very top). It seems reasonable that at least some mention should be made of this.
    • Yes, Jaws is the first thing that popped into my head when I heard the beginning of the fourth movement as well. The first few bars sound almost identical, though the two composers go in completely different directions after that. In particular, Williams keeps up the minor second bass notes -- removing the dotted rhythm and speeding it up a bit. Then Williams adds muffled horn on top of that. There's more to the Jaws Theme than those first few bars. Was Williams a thief? No more of a thief than Dvorak. The Scherzo of this very symphony is an obvious allusion to the beginning of the Scherzo of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (where again the two composers go in different directions after the opening few bars). This type of borrowing occurs all the time in symphonic music. Its not a big deal. 172.165.139.179 08:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I just found this page cuz I was listening to Dvorak's 9th Symphony for the first time and at the start of the fourth movement, suddenly it's the Jaws theme. It's only a few notes but the similarity is absolutely unmistakeable. I can't believe I couldn't find more on this and have trouble imagining any modern ears hearing this piece for the first time without having Jaws spring to mind. 70.230.101.31 04:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

There is quite a bit of controversy on this. In this Talk page alone, there are other opinions that the Jaws theme is completely different from the opening of the 4th movement. On one hand, you have the repetition of the half step with a strikingly similar mood of the suspense of "something approaching" whether it's tangible or not. On the other, Jaws uses E and F, and the 4th movement starts out with B and C. Also, the notes alternate differently, with Jaws doing the E-F-E thing and the 4th doing the B-C thing. It really is a subjective issue and not something that can be ascertained. Different people have different standards of similarity in music. While some may argue that using the same interval with the same ominous mood creates a similarity, others would argue back that the slight difference in sequence is enough for them to be incomparable.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.6.200 (talk) 17:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

To add my voice to the mix, I should say that there is a long history of "borrowing" or "inspiration", not just in film scores in general, but specifically to John Williams: Schindler's List = Vivaldi's violincello concerto; E.T. = Dvorak's Dumky Trio, and so on. Nonetheless, Williams has come out with many striking and original scores, such as the Raiders theme, CE3K's leitmotif, and many others, so I think we can forgive him the occasional creative indiscretion under pressure (and believe me, film composers work under ridiculous time constraints).Kpbtm (talk) 09:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Citation 14

Here's an archive.org link if anyone wants to fix it: http://web.archive.org/web/20090109215620/http://www.caare.co.uk/concert_B.html 71.205.163.230 (talk) 23:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Popularity

By methods that apparently are not allowed in an article as they could be said to involve original research, and for which sources would not be accessible to typical users, I found that this symphony has been more popular with recording orchestras than any except some of Beethoven's. Marlindale (talk) 00:12, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Pentatonic scale - typical?

Article currently states "Most historians agree that Dvořák is referring to the pentatonic scale, which is typical of each of these musical traditions [African-American and Amerindian]."

The second half of this sentence sounds unlikely to me - is there a more recent source for this than the 1958 journal article currently given as verification? 86.147.129.139 (talk) 15:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggest looking at the articles, one on the Pentatonic Scale, and another on the American String Quartet. But the New World Symphony is not very pentatonic, the Quartet much more so.Marlindale (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

length

I think it would be useful to state about how long (in time) the piece is. For example, on Youtube, the Krarjan recording is 43:50.211.225.33.80 (talk) 23:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

London Philharmonic disambiguation

The "London Philharmonic Orchestra" was founded in 1932 (or so says the WP article with that title). The orchestra performing the European premiere was "Philharmonic Society of London" or "London Philharmonic Society" which changed its name to "Royal Philharmonic Society" in 1912. So I changed the link to London Philharmonic Society. Marlindale (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Swing Low

Anyone know what ties "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" to the subject of this article? (It's in the See Also section.) 68.187.205.80 (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Afaik, it has no connection to the symphony. I think someone has confused "Goin' Home" (the song set to the tune of the slow movement) with " ...comin' for to carry me home". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
There is a connection. Steinberg writes "Every American who has heard the New World Symphony has noticed that the flute theme in the first movement in the first movement is a near quotation of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot." Its mentioned in most program notes for the symphony. Never been too obvious to me personally, but perhaps I haven't listened to the themes side by side.DavidRF (talk) 20:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Michael Steinberg wrote that on p. 151 of his book "The Symphony, A listener's Guide," Oxford University Press, 1995 first ed. (still in 2d ed. I think) but it isn't true that "Every American" notices the resemblance (at least some contributors to this section don't seem to have) nor is the resemblance really a "near quotation", as I point out below. Marlindale (talk) 00:11, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
APBrown on page 414 of one of his symphony books [5] says its the theme at the start of the expositional coda in measure 149. Its never been a connection that's clicked with me personally, but its nearly unanimous in books which is what matters here. I don't understand why a link would go at the bottom though. These things should be linked inline.DavidRF (talk) 20:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I looked into the details. I found a copy of a score of the spiritual in a book Thirty Spirituals edited by Hall Johnson, Schirmer, 1949. In a site www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=24219 for the symphony and for the flute and piccolo parts, [free-scores.com]_dvorak-antonin-symphony-flute-piccolo-24219.pdf although neither of those has been a reliable url for me so far, I reached the site and printed the first page "Flauto I" for first flute part, which in the next to last bar beginning with "Solo" has the theme at issue. It's in the key of G major. In the G major Pentatonic Scale the notes are GABDEG. Only these notes appear in Swing Low, it is purely pentatonic. The flute solo starts out in that scale but then even becomes non-pentatonic. Johnson's arrangement of "Swing Low" is in the key of A major so I transposed it into G major for comparison. Like any folk music, the spiritual might exist in similar but varying arrangements even of the melody. In a couple of cases I put parens around a Johnson note such as an opening "Oh" which I suspect may not be there in other arrangements. The shortest notes in the flute solo are some sixteenth notes and in the spiritual, eighth notes, so I'll take 16th notes as the unit of 1, eighth notes as 2, dotted eighths as 3, quarter notes as 4, dotted quarters as 6, half notes as 8. A note followed by a rest will get a number for the note plus the rest. I'll write notes from the tonic G on up in upper case, lower notes as lower case. Each note will be written as the appropriate letter followed by number. Swing Low, specifically its Refrain, then starts out (B8)B4G8B4G6G2e2d6G2G2G2G2B2B2D4. The flute solo has some triplet notes near the end of it which I'll write T(...). The flute solo then begins G6G2e2d6G3B1D2D2D8D3E1D3C1B2T(CDC)T(AF#E)D8. One can see that Dvořák departs at the end from the pentatonic scale which does not contain C and has the half-tone interval with the following B.
To look for as close a parallel as possible, I'll combine repeated notes into one and add up their lengths. The flute solo would then have G8e2d6G3B1D15E1D3C1B2. Swing Low, omitting the first three or four notes, would have G8e2d6G8B4D12E2D2B8G6. The sequences are identical for the first three notes G, e, d, then have the same notes with different lengths for the next 5 notes G, B, D, E, D, then differ, just as the flute solo becomes non-pentatonic. This seems a pretty close parallel, decreasing as one goes along.
But if one wants to look for differences, the tempo marking for the part of the first movement after a brief adagio, and including the flute solo, becomes molto allegro (quite fast). Swing Low in the Johnson book has no tempo marking, but it seems to me it would be much slower. For example, the words "comin' for to" on the notes G2G2G2G2 in "Swing Low" are matched up with just a G3 in the flute solo. So the tempi are different and also the rhythm after the first three notes.
I think the article needs to be revised, not of course to include such detail, but to say there is some parallel between "Swing Low" and the first half or so of the flute solo. I need to recheck this Talk part and then to write something in the article. Marlindale (talk) 22:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
But not, I hope, based purely on your own original research outlined above. We need a published source saying it. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
That's an interesting point. I had written in the article that it is often claimed that Dvořák borrowed melodies but this is seldom backed up by specifics. I think I need to modify that in light of what I found. Above in this section, it's said that [conductor William or who?] Steinberg had pointed it out in some "program notes," can someone provide more specifics? Meanwhile I found that there is a WP article on "Swing Low." It incorporates a score, which may be more authentic than the one I found in a book collection. The article says "Swing Low" was written by a known Native American composer, who also wrote another famous spiritual. I know we can't use that article itself as a source because of possible nonpermanence but one could look at its references. By the way this symphony is getting a large amount of Talk which I guess is a compliment to it. I'm very fond of that flute solo and very familiar with the spiritual but hadn't realized until the past week that they might be related. Marlindale (talk) 03:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
OK, I found author Michael Steinberg, The Symphony, A Listener's Guide p. 152 says a theme in the first movement "resembles" Swing Low. When I get a chance, I hope soon, I'll revise the article accordingly. I plan to pretty much quote that opinion without elaboration. People hunting for elaboration may find it here above in Talk. Marlindale (talk) 04:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Moving comments from bottom of page for discussion here

I don't believe that anyone reputable thinks, automatically, that the "New World" Symphony draws on Czech folklore more than American. That would be an absurd conclusion. I believe it has been clearly established that Dvorak drew on American sources, ranging from Longfellow's writings, to African and Native American music, to specific notations of American birdsong. Whether this makes his music "American" or "Czech" is more a matter of belief than knowledge, since such categories are truly amorphous.

I've written several books on Dvorak, and read all recent books on the composer and am disillusioned to see such outdated stuff here.

Best,

Mike


Michael Beckerman Professor and Chair of Music New York University

I hope you'll help us with the article. Wikipedia relies entirely on voluntary efforts. Keep in mind that the further one gets to matters of opinion, the more important it is that the opinions be sourced; i.e. our articles don't depend on the authority of the contributor. Even an expert contributor is expected to cite sources. But an expert can usually locate good, appropriate, citable secondary sources. Your own published books would qualify
If you're aware of anything pithy in your own or anyone else's books that speaks to the degree of Czech versus American elements, by all means put it in. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Is Leonard Bernstein "reputable" enough for you? Please see my comment below. Orthotox (talk) 08:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I would say it's common knowledge among informed people that it is. What might be more questionable is whether it is among the most popular of all symphonies, but a reference is now given for that. Bear in mind Clapham says Dvořák's 7th symphony is his greatest, but there might not be a consensus about that and it isn't the question here. Marlindale (talk) 23:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Influences of earlier composers

The new material on specific influences of Beethoven's 9th on this one is interesting and seems worth keeping. More general statements are better left to the main article on Dvořák, I think. In that article it's said that Wagner influenced the 3d symphony and to a lesser extent the 4th, and that Brahms influenced the 6th. I see to good reason to mention them about the NWS in particular. But Schubert is said to have had a general influence on Dv's symphonic style, so I propose one mention him rather than Brahms or Wagner. Marlindale (talk) 02:17, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Drum Corps, Hovis Bread

In an earlier section of Talk is a long list of items "in popular culture" now deleted. Even if these two could be documented, why are they musically interesting? Anyhow, we should discuss such things here in Talk rather than just back-and-forth reverting. Marlindale (talk) 03:23, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

There is an article Hovis which may work in favor, of referring to the bread and its advertising. I am not sure. Marlindale (talk) 03:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

More on 'Goin Home'--TOS problem?

My edit on this section last week was reverted by Marlindale without discussion or explanation. I realize the emotionally sensitivities in this area and don't claim to be a music historian, but I so know that contributions by African-Americans were often slighted, especially in the 1920s to 1950s era now again relied upon by this section. Nonetheless, I respectfully suggest that the section as reverted is incorrect (and its tone possibly in violation of wikipedia's TOS) despite the string of multiple refs, and that the theme actually is African-American, since Harry Burleigh (whose article I was editing on his feast day and making corresponding changes) not only learned the spirituals from his formerly enslaved grandfather, but was a student of Dvorak at the time the symphony was written (and three decades before the later pupil and composer William Fisher now again the article's only wikilink). The ref I had added was to the research performed by the Library of Congress (whose music historians I don't sneeze at), and the Burleigh article has other cites. Thus, I respectfully suggest that Marlindale or another music historian reconsider the reversion, as well as the conclusion and tone of the reverted paragraph.Jweaver28 (talk) 11:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I have done quite a bit of editing on the article on Dvořák himself and his American String Quartet (No. 12), beside this article. That American String Quartet article has been stable for quite a while; there is an editor whom I respect a lot, Ravpapa, who has done more work than I have on that. There is a book Dvořák in America which I've often cited in references, with chapters by different authors, with a fair amount about Burleigh in at least one chapter. Now, what is the evidence if any that "Goin' home" existed as a spiritual before Dvořák supposedly borrowed from it, as opposed to the position, supported by several references in the article as it was and is, that the song was consciously written much later (1922) based on a theme borrowed from the symphony? There are many collections of spirituals into books; is "Goin' Home" to be found in any of them? Above in this Talk section, the composer is given as Dvořák in one source. But I just learned today, also above, that Dvořák apparently did borrow from "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" in a flute passage in the first movement (although I have not yet heard it with that in mind), and in light of that, the articles on the Symphony and Quartet may well need some revision. So I learned something, thank you for that. As for "Goin' Home" though, I had never looked at details about it. I still don't see as yet why the insertion I reverted should not have been, unless some evidence is found that "Goin' Home" existed before the Symphony is given. Marlindale (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
The Clapham 1979 (Norton) biography Dvořák, just after mentioning "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot", mentions a "cor anglais" (English Horn) theme from the Largo as if suggesting it may relate to some spiritual, but he doesn't name one. Conceivably, there was such a spiritual, with a name different from "Goin' Home"? Anyone familiar with some spirituals, who can get hold of a score of the English Horn part in the Largo, might look at it to see if it is reminiscent of some spiritual. Marlindale (talk) 03:47, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
John Clapham, Antonin Dvořák: Musician and Craftsman, St. Martin's Press, New York, 1966, p. 90, says "the melody for the cor anglais ... has been turned into the song `Goin' Home'". He writes that it "bears a remarkably close resemblance to A. Johnson's 'Massa Dear', but this was probably inspired by Dvořák's melody." Searching the Web for "Massa Dear" I found an entry for it in www.worldcat.org as written by Dvořák and Frederick Manley, "arr. from the New World Symphony", Boston, C. C. Burchard, 1927." So this brings us no closer to finding a spiritual source for the melody before the Symphony, and it is actually later than 'Goin Home' (1922). Marlindale (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
My (uncitable, of course) personal knowledge is that several musicians I respect (my conductors, teachers, professors) told me it was the well-established consensus that the theme in question is Dvorak's original composition, and that the persistent question of its prior existence is merely a testament to how well he captured the idiom. I was so sure of this that I was quite surprised not to find a solid reference for it in Google Scholar. So, maybe I've been fed white-centric myths for a long time.
But I offer the following suggestion for why I probably haven't: this theme is one of the most famous and best-loved in the entire symphonic literature, and discovering its hitherto-unknown source would be an astounding achievement which could make a musicologist's career. The fact that this hasn't happened is good evidence that you aren't likely to find "anyone familiar with some spirituals" who will recognize it as something which antedates the NWS.
Still, many thanks for hunting around! You never know, could be someone finally hit on it.FourViolas (talk) 23:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. Searching about Frederick Manley, it seems he was a poet as opposed to a composer. He presumably wrote the words to "Massa Dear" and set them to the melody. Marlindale (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I wish to bring to the attention of all the following critical fact, that slave and Black American funerals were called "Going Home Ceremonies." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homegoing At first they, as slaves, believed upon death their souls would return to Africa, and then upon being introduced to Christianity, they believed their souls would return to Heaven, their home. This makes the song either a true "Negro Spiritual" or a composition intimately familiar with the black "Home Going" funeral ceremony.65.255.192.26 (talk) 19:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC) Dr.Raymond Schep.

Also the first verse of the song is completely pentatonic, most African music is reported to be pentatonic,and in the entire song only one note is not in the pentatonic scale, namely, the note a half tone before the tonic note.65.255.192.26 (talk) 19:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC) Dr.Raymond Schep

Thank you, Dr. Schep. I'll add two points. First, there is reason to believe the words were written after the composition of the theme, so a discussion of whether the author was familiar with that particular funerary tradition is only vaguely relevant to this article about the music. Second, Wikipedia only publishes information which has already been described directly in published reliable sources elsewhere. FourViolas (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

"Jaws"

  • The theme from the film Jaws sounds similar to the opening of the fourth movement from the symphony.

The Jaws theme does not sound to me any more like the New World Symphony than it does to the opening of Mussorgky's Night on Bald Mountain, or the Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky, or, for that matter, to the Asteroid Field passage in William's "Star Wars."

The similarity is far, far less than many remarked-on musical coincidences ("Yes! We Have No Bananas" and the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah; the March of the Children in "The King and I" and Grieg's "Wedding Day at Troldhaugen.") Dpbsmith (talk) 19:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the introduction of the fourth movement was adapted by John Williams for Star Wars, and this should be added to the article with sources. —Viriditas | Talk 20:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Are you talking about when the brass come in and not the repeated rising seconds? The brass sounds a bit like the throne room music perhaps. These types of things are interesting, but they belong more in the Star Wars soundtrack article than they belong here. DavidRF 20:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
That and other parts, perhaps. I need to refer to the composition. I've talked about this for years, but I happened to attend the performance of Symphony No. 9 by the San Francisco Symphony on November 9th, and serendipitously, conductor Roberto Minczuk thought it was notable enough to mention to the audience. If sources can be found, I think it is acceptable to describe it as an influence in this article. —Viriditas | Talk 20:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The "organ note" you refer to in Also sprach Zarathustra is called a pedal point. I don't really think the Jaw's theme opening sounds like a pedal point. It sounds more like a tremolo low on the piano register. Quite different, IMO. But I agree with you that the opening of the 4th movement of Dvorak's 9th sounds nothing like Jaws, and I am a little suprised that so much discussion has been spawned by this. Countless pieces of music can be argued to have been influenced by various other pieces, but such things do not really belong on Wikipedia, unless there is some concrete evidence that states so (no original research). Eganio 08:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The resemblance is strictly melodic and "paper" rather than musical. This is because the two motifs are (new) worlds apart in their rhythmic cast. In short, when it comes to musical identity, the beat beats all. This isn't at all to suggest that Williams didn't crib from Dvorak (he cribbed from everyone), but only that he knew enough to hide the theft. Orthotox (talk) 09:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Let me add that I arrived at this page because I was listening to this piece and was struck by its resemblance to the Jaws part and google on "dvorak" and "jaws". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scdv (talk • contribs) 11:08, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Bernstein's Beef

The reference to Leonard Bernstein is somewhat misleading, insofar as it leaves the impression that the late maestro in some approbated the "international" provenance of the symphony. In fact, however, Bernstein argued in favor of such provenance only because he strongly resented what he regarded as the work's pretensions to being representative American music. In fine, Bernstein was ready to dismiss the composer of the New World Symphony as being " far more involved with Brahms that he is with America." Hear his withering review of the work here. Orthotox (talk) 08:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I would hardly say it's withering. What he attacks is the idea of its being American, not the work itself. He concludes by saying that it's a fine work, but that it's European rather than American. Kostaki mou (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Structure

I believe the page needs at least a short analysis of the musical form of each movement, similar to the ones featured in symphonies by Beethoven. (I don't have the knowledge to do it myself). 187.190.163.227 (talk) 07:45, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

The article sonata form may be relevant (especially to the first, and possibly the fourth, movement), but I also don't know enough to write in detail. Marlindale (talk) 16:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Recordings

I was hoping to see a Recordings section in the article. I have since found detailed reviews elsewhere on the internet, but (at the risk of being tagged as Original Research) it might be worth listing the most famous or preferred conductors/recordings, especially among the historic ones.Tetsuo (talk) 18:38, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 5 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 21:20, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Symphony No. 9 (Dvořák) → New World Symphony – Very commonly known as such and WP:NATURALDIS is preferred over parenthetical. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:34, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

New audio sample

Symphony no. 9, first movement (excerpt)

We now have a new sample from a professional recording available. --Gnom (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Unreferenced items

This section has been marked as needing references for over a month, and no references have been forthcoming. I'm removing them from the article and placing them here. Per the verifiability policy, linked below every edit box, every item in Wikipedia should be based on something published in a reliable source. I have no doubt these items are true and that references can be found for them, and each of them can be reinserted into the article when it is accompanied by good, verifiable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I added back the Studio Ghibli link, though it's in Japanese. You can see a translation of the relevant part by reading the article. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 06:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)]
Hi, I'm a Japanese. I was suprised finding the reference in this article. In the Japanese page, there is no information except for the film used the symphony. I don't think it is good to refer. I strongly propose to delete this reference link. Nihonjoe, SOUIU KOMAKAI KOTOHA SHITANO RISUTONI KAKUNDAYO, don't add back anymore.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.243.195.38 (talk) 14:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Piano transcription

I think there is a piano transcription of the symphony where is it 206.85.75.168 (talk) 15:29, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

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