Talk:Symbols of Islam

Merge

Support - I think that should be merged into Symbols of Islam. 77.98.117.4 (talk) 10:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

there is no symbols in islam the kalimah flag is the words that are testament to our belief which reads in english there is no god but Allah (alone) and Muhammad (pease be upon him) is the messenger (meaning the final messenger) Muslims dont belive in symbolism as this can be then turned into idolotary which is the biggest sin which Allah does not forgive. we should practice according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the traditions of Muhammad peace be upon him) and there was no symbols then so to make symbols now would be also a Bidat, innovation. In times of war only a black flag was used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.211.47 (talk) 09:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Star and Crescent are not Islamic symbolism. 15 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dizzyknow (talk • contribs) 02:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't Merge

Although now associated with Islam, the crescent and star symbol was NOT originally Islamic. It was never used in the early centuries of Islam. The most likely theory or origin is that as a Byzantine symbol, when Sultan Fatih Mehmet Khan conquered Constantinople and took on the title of Kaisar-i Rum the symbol also became Islamic. It has long before Islam, been used by both the Greeks/ Romans and Western Turks. The Turkic myth is when Alp Arsalan travelled towards Anatolia, and for the first time saw the star suhail (english?) which cannot be seen at higher latitudes of Central Asia appearing from behind a new crescent, he took it to be a sign of a long-lasting empire in the southern climates. Hence in Turkish flag, the star lies outside the non-visible circle of the moon (unlike e.g. Pakistani flag where star is inside the crescent) So essentially crescent and star deserves a separate page because it has an interesting and decisively non-Islamic early history. The point of research is not who used this symbol but rather when did the Muslims adopt it? Is there any pre 1492 usage of this symbol in the Islamic world? 88.105.97.204 (talk) 05:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Symbols

Freestyle, the info that has been cited is not from valid Muslim sources, a selection that would make sense. Because a Muslim can give the Islamic perspective on Islamic symbols (if any. I still maintain that there may be many Muslim symbols, but hardly any official Islamic symbol.). It would be appropriate to have stronger sources in general, Muslim or not.

1. The line about Mughal gardens gives it a misleading important. Here is a line from the source that you have cited:

"Though these formal or paradise gardens are commonly associated with Islamic symbolism - they are also referred to as "Islamic" gardens - the origin of this distinctive form is acknowledged by scholars to lie in a time even more remote."

The article itself says that the form is pre-Islamic! Therefore the source is not just weak, it is in contradiction to what is being proposed. Note also that the source is a Hindu website. That makes the case a little weaker; I instead suggest that a Muslim authority on Islamic symbolism is cited. A non-Muslim source can be cited, of course, but with a stronger scholarly background. At any rate, this source only contradicts the assumption that Mughal gardens had Islamic symbolism.

2. The source Sufic symbolism is also a weak one. Rather than being a news item or a scholarly piece, or even a credible site, it a usenet chatter among a group of not-very-informed persons. Not worth an encyclopedia's attention. Please consider.

3. The symbolism of Islamic prayer is another non-Muslim source. I have to read the entire article before a final comment, but it's strange that no valid Muslim authority has been consulted. The Muslim source on Mughal gardens actually made a slight reference to those gardens being a symbol of Paradise, and then went on to correct it. It was also not a well-written piece. It makes sense that a Muslim scholar could better expound on Islamic symbolism. Another authority could be a symbologist, not just usenet users.

4. In fact, it was useful (though admittedly not well-written) information that Islam is actually quite symbol-free. Here is Encyclopaedia Britannica Online's search result on Islamic Symbolism. As of 22:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC), it shows zero results. This is not very well-explained in the intro line of the article. Hmmm, let me think of a better alternative.

Regards, TheProphetess 22:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC) P.S. I have refrained from editing out your writing. Please re-consider. If you do not wish to change the document, I will gladly take the work up.

Major revision

Editors who had a very loose view of symbolism had filled up the article with unreferenced personal essays and discussions of the symbolism of prayer, the Hajj, etc. I rewrote, making it clear that the article is about not-textual, non-verbal, visual symbols only. The article still lacks references. I should not be doing this, I should be cleaning my house. If any editors would do the research and add references, that would be very nice indeed. Zora 20:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

five pointed star

What is the five point star that is used on VA headstones? What's the deal with copyrights on the emblems allowed on VA headstones? [1]

--Gbleem 02:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Sumerian theory

Baristarim, your references don't work. I went into the code and winkled them out. One of them is to an 1890 book claiming that all religions originated in Sumeria; the other "reference" points to the cover of a book on astrology. Those references don't prove a darn thing.

I'll look up the references on the star and crescent. I'm sure that they're there. Not right now, as I have a guest coming, but PLEASE, don't restore your version. Your references are unreliable and don't even prove what you think that they prove. Zora 03:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Putting in the disputed and fact tags since that section gravely lacks sources even the way it is. At least they were sources :)) In any case let's wait to see what sources can be brought forth. Baristarim 04:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The Sword

Does anyone know what the symbolism of the sword is in Islam? It is featured prominently on the Saudi Arabia flag and on some wiki articles about Shia Islam. Any information would be greatly appreciated. HalveBlue

Byzantium

Even though the article already has a tag on it, I'd like to point out that the Byzantium article (along with a few other places I've looked up) seem to agree that the Islamic usage of the crescent is due largely in part to pre-Islamic pagan religious symbols (like that of the Turkic peoples), and also as a result of the cultural assimilation that occurred from the conquest of Persia(Babylon). I'm not disagreeing that the presence of the crescent had no influence on the adoption by the Ottomans, but I don't believe it's right to say that that's the main factor in its widespread adoption as an Islamic symbol, especially since other Muslim factions had used it pre-1453.--C.Logan 05:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Refimprove

Article is sadly under-referenced. It may be true that "today" the crescent-and-star is popularly associated with Islam. The article fails completely to substantiate this, and more significantly, to pinpoint when and why this happened. Is this a 20th century phenomenon? Early or late 20th century? Originating in the Islamic world or in the West? It almost certainly is later than the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI, since before that the symbol was not associated with Islam but with the Ottoman Empire. --dab (𒁳) 11:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Islamic symbols are non-textual and non-verbal, visual symbols that have been used...

If that is true, the lead pic (the word God, written in arabic) should go, since it is clearly textual William M. Connolley (talk) 09:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes the description was too restrictive, and needs to include Islamic calligraphy, metaphors and allegory - for example. I have made a change reflective of this need, and will be interested in what others have to say. -Aquib (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Star of David

The Star of David was used by medieval Islamic Empires. So can it also be added in the article Runehelmet (talk) 16:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Allah,rub and Elah (request to change)

Allah is the God in the Islamic faith and no one else but the word of God in Arabic and Islam is rub (in the meaning of the creator and keeper and controller)رب and the meaning of God (the one who is worshiped is : Elah)إله so the picture in the front is الله means the God not means a god so, you can say under the picture Allah , the God of Muslims, the God in Islam, the name of God in Islam please change it a soon as possible to not give misleading information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.90.26.26 (talk) 10:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

FLAG

In the lead of article writes that symbols of Islam include calligraphy of important concepts or phrases and the article refereed to Islamic symbols ant not flag. The Daesh's flag is not Islamic symbol and this is flag of a group. For this reason, the article include just Islamic symbols and the phrases in the flag is Islamic symbol and the flag is not a Islamic symbol. So I replaced it with Islamic phrases is the flag.AliAkar (talk) 06:33, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Fatimids and hummingbirds

I'm dubious of the claim that the Fatimids used purple to symbolize hummingbirds- an exclusively New World clade- since they fell to Saladin several centuries before the Columbian Exchange. A translation error perhaps?

This is surely vandalism that has sat unsourced for some four years. The Fatimids' colour was green; purple was not used. As you say, hummingbirds in the Old World is impossible. I have removed this impossible information. GPinkerton (talk) 23:05, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Origin of Star and Crescent

The article claimed "The star and crescent moon was created in Islam by the Umayyads" But not citation given of this claim, and it contradicts both the article for Star and Crescent (who made no mention of the Ummayads) and the article for the Ummayads (who make no mention of the crescent or any symbol) Salbazier (talk) 09:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, none of the description in 'common iconography' have any citation. This is unlikely, but do table format like this does not required linked citation? Salbazier (talk) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, looking down the actual section of star & crescent, it does have source. Problem remains that both original description in 'common iconography' and in the paragraph in said section are somewhat misleading and different from the source. For now, 've modified the text so that it represent the source (namely that the Ummayad are using it as essentially grand-fathered design on the coinage).

Another problem still remained, namely that they are essentially blogs

https://ibalushi.medium.com/the-origin-of-the-3-religious-symbols-38a394d1479

https://steemit.com/history/@mand/history-of-the-star-and-crescent

The latter even is an anonymous source. At least the former have actual name attached to it.

Finally with this detail, I found part of the Star & Crescent article that mention this matter Star and crescent#Iran (Persia) The cited passage tell somewhat same story (it makes no mention of the Ummayads however) Salbazier (talk) 11:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)