Talk:Swiss cheese

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Food and drink: Cheeses

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Swiss cheese which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant discussions, including 2015 and 2020 RMs, are at Talk:Swiss cheese (North America). Certes (talk) 15:36, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gruyere and Raclette

Ok, plainly I need to see some evidence that these are ever referred to by the phrase "Swiss cheese". Not being described as cheeses from Switzerland, and not that the articles get lots of views, but that when someone says "I'd like Swiss cheese on my sandwich" the mean either Gruyere or Raclette. Because if they don't they are not being called "Swiss cheese", and their inclusion here is inappropriate and being used to deflect and push a POV.

As for that POV, again Johnbod, the use of "Swiss cheese" to refer to Emmental and cheese in that style is not just American, but also Canadian, Australian, and quite a few other places. And yes, cheese made in the Emmental area is called "Swiss cheese"; it's not just a term for imitators. At this point you've been reverted and countered by many other editors for a reason. Your edits are incorrect in facts and have been used to push a narrative that cheese called "Swiss cheese" is not the same as Emmental, which is false. oknazevad (talk) 15:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to have stumbled into a storm in a teacup here. I live in England and have travelled fairly widely in the rest of Europe. I like cheese. Even a common or garden supermarket would be laughed at if they claimed to stock Swiss cheese and only had Emmental. There are lots of European cheeses with holes in, Jarlsberg from Norway, Swiss Gruyère of course, many more. So what it boils down to is that in North America, the term "Emmental" is used for any cheese with holes in, no matter where it is made, like saying "hoover" for vacuum cleaner. So that factoid needs to be in the line "Swiss cheese (North America), because is it a specific geographical (mis)use. The only other alternative is list all 450 (real) Swiss cheeses below "[[List of Swiss cheeses (from Switzerland), with over 450 types" using the ** method. Reductio ad absurdum. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:18, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And btw, this is a disambiguation article for "Swiss cheese", not a disambiguation article for Emmental. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:21, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that in some dialects "Swiss cheese" is specifically a synonym for Emmentaler-style cheese, not any Swiss-originating style, so it's appropriate to call out it specifically. ([1],[2]) It's particularly strange to mention Emmentaler specifically when discussing the generic version without specifically linking it.

Also, "Emmentaler" is not used for generic Emmentaler-style cheese in North America only (see the sources I added to the Emmentaler cheese article). There seems to be a continuous error throughout many repeatedly objected-to edits that only North America calls non-Swiss-made Emmentaler by a generic name. That's plain incorrect, as it's clear from those same sources that "Emmentaler" is treated much like "cheddar" in being the name of common style made around the world but named for its place of origin, not a specific product of one location, and some places use the country while others use the more specific valley. oknazevad (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Building in Rome

I added this building in Rome to this page, as it is commonly known as La Groviera, or the Swiss Cheese. It was removed by John Maynard Friedman for lack of a reference, so I added content to the page on the building citing a scholarly reference which states clearly that this name is used for the building.^[1]^: 199 Is there any reason why it should not now be added back to this page? Note: I wouldn't be wasting time on something so absolutely trivial if I hadn't happened to search for the building without knowing its correct Italian name (it's always been just "La Groviera" to me); to track it down I had to switch to Italian Wikipedia, search for it there, then follow the interwiki link to get to the en.wp page. That is an unnecessarily complex process, and one that people without close familiarity with Italian might not be comfortable with. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

^ Alberto Zambenedetti (1983). Filming in Stone: Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana and Fascist Signification in Cinema. Annali d'Italianistica. 28, Capital City: Rome 1870-2010: 199–215. (subscription required).

I was about to suggest the simple solution: create a redirect for La Groviera. But I see you have just done it.

First, I agree that you have provided a good citation for the building and presumably its nickname. But it brings us to the second point: this article is a disambiguation page for the term "Swiss cheese". There is no sensible reason why someone would expect to find the building in response to a search for "Swiss cheese". On the other hand, since Italian: groviera means French: Gruyére, it is more credible that they might look in Gruyère, so I added a See also there for the building. But I can't see how it belongs in a disambiguation article for the words "Swiss cheese" unless you can find a citation that says that it is commonly called in English "the Swiss Cheese". Otherwise it seems to be your original research, that you have mistranslated Groviera into the American generic term for cheese with eyes.

But let's not pursue this to the bitter end. I suggest that your redirect has solved the problem of finding the relevant article and there is also a link to it from a direct translation. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:07, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, " it is commonly known as La Groviera, or the Swiss Cheese" is just wrong - !it is commonly known as La Groviera, or the Gruyere" may be right. Johnbod (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Johnbod, that's something you'd have to take up with the author of the article in the Annali d'Italianistica, since that is exactly what he says. And no, groviera does not mean exclusively Gruyère – see the Treccani entry (which is however missing the wider usage of the word to mean "something riddled with holes"). John Maynard Friedman, (a) the cited source says exactly that, and (b) of course it is commonly called in English "the Swiss Cheese", but crap on the internet is not a reliable source, is it? – nevertheless it's what we use to determine common usage; and (c), it's mildly aggravating that I had to find some different way of making it possible to find this thing without knowing its official name. You asked for a source and got one, what was the problem? We're not discussing some important fact here, but an aid to navigation. I've no appetite for further discussion, unwatching this page. Do we really have nothing more important than this to do? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:47, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You weren't in the Swiss cheese wars. Johnbod (talk) 15:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Tread softly for you tread on old war wounds" :-D

Btw, Treccani says that it is an adaptation into Italian of the French word Gruyère and more generally in commercial use, it means Emmental and its national (Italian) imitators. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we have Swiss cheese (North America), but I don't think we're ready for Swiss cheese (Italy). I did Swiss-type cheese, which may be useful. Johnbod (talk) 18:10, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Best let sleeping dogs lie and tip-toe quietly away. Move along, nothing to see here. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[alberto-1] Alberto Zambenedetti (1983). Filming in Stone: Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana and Fascist Signification in Cinema. Annali d'Italianistica. 28, Capital City: Rome 1870-2010: 199–215. (subscription required).

[1]