Talk:Swedish-speaking population of Finland/Archive 3

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No Edit Wars

Both 128.214.30.138 and Clarifer have violated WP:3RR and with no good reason to do so. On the one hand, I agree with 128.214.30.138 that the source is not ideal. That is not intended as criticism towards the source itself (my quick reading of it suggests it's a good one) but it did not appear to be as direct as what it is intended to source here. I would hope to see a bit more nuanced text when we are dealing with things experts can only speculate about. On the other hand, I see this as a reason to discuss the source, not just delete it point-blank as 128.214.30.138 has been doing. I hope you, and everybody else interested, can try to reach an understanding here on the talk page first. Any further violation of WP:3RR will be reported. JdeJ (talk) 15:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel that I have to correct a small issue here. I did exactly three reverts on 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and numbered them in the edit summary so I didn't violate the three reverts per 24hours rule. I'm glad that someone was paying attention to this article through that. Sorry for the close call. Clarifer (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Finns on Finland's coastal areas around AD 1000

There´s not hardly any debate about this. The coast settled by Swedes was MOSTLY uninhabitet (Kari Tarkiainen, 2008). The only exception to this is Åbolands coast. And even that was only sparsely populated by Finns. Kari Tarkiainen actually even recites the study which clarifier presented. Eastern Nyland was literally empty when the Swedes came. Same with most of Österbotten eventhough the place names were largely of Finnish orgins. Place names around Sibbo and Helsingfors are 100% Swedish by origins. Thanks to the extremist the reader now gets the impression that all of the coast was heavily populated by Finns at the time Swedes came. The reason for lack of Finnish communities in the coast was due to svedjebruk, Finns simply found coast not as productive place to settle. I will make sure extremist do not have a room in this site anymore. 128.214.30.138 (talk) 16:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that Tarkiainen's book presents very conservative and traditional, some say obsolete, views of on some issues. It must be acknowledged that the possible existence or non-existence of Finnish settlement on those coastal areas is a debated issue. There absolutely nothing "extremist" in this. The anonymous poster above it is obviously not aware of the fact that many inhabitants of Finland had adopted agriculture based on manured fields already in the Iron Age. (Archaeologists have dug up several Iron Age fields in Finland). They were not dependant of swidden agriculture (Sw. svedjebruk). These kind of obsolete national-romanticist stereotypes and simplifications will not be presented as facts in the article--91.156.108.170 (talk) 18:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure archeologist have dug up iron age field where non-svedjebruk reigned, however, whether these people were Finns or Scandinavians is another story.

Yeah, a field does not tell us what language its cultivators spoke. But presumably there were not many Scandinavians in Mikkeli around AD 1000. There's nothing to suggest that Finnish-speaking populations were only swidden agriculturalists, in fact there is lot of evidence to maintain an opposite view.--91.156.108.170 (talk) 18:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, this stidy which Clarifier presented only reckons the Finnish derivied names in Åbo-trakten, and like I said there´s no bigger debate on this 70-100% place names in Nyland are of Swedish origins, thus we need to clarify this a bit so that the reader won´t get too twisted view. Podomi (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Please read the source (Ritva Liisa Pitkänen (Helsinki, Finland) Finnish-Swedish Contacts in Finnish Nomenclature [1]) more carefully. The Turunmaa/Aboland archipelago is taken only as an example for a possible settlement scenario as suggested by the toponyms.

"The etymological and historical background of the old Finnish substrate nomenclature was also studied. The most detailed studies concerned the old loan names of Finnish origin in the Turunmaa archipelago (PITKÄNEN 1985, 1990, 1993, ZILLIACUS 1989, 1994, NAERT 1995). So far, publications on Finnish loan nomenclature in Uusimaa have concerned the composition of the collected data and the distribution of name types (PITKÄNEN 2001,2002). We do not have a general overview of the loan names in Ostrobothnia, so even their number is unknown. It seems that, with a few exceptions, there are no place names of Finnish origin in Åland (HULDÉN 1982: 95–102)." "In order to draw attention to the features of the individual regions, as well, I shall consider the research not only from the point of view of THE MATERIAL AS A WHOLE, but also from the perspective of the two largest regional material collections of the research with different backgrounds. One of these was collected from the easternmost bilingual region on the coast of the Gulf of Finland, the municipality of Pyhtää (Sw. Pyttis, PITKÄNEN 1975). This collection includes nearly 400 Finnish-Swedish place name pairs" As for percentages, it seems that in all Swedish-speaking areas (except Aland) the number of Finnish place name loans is VERY small but significant: "The substrate names of Finnish origin are relatively numerous everywhere in the Swedish-speaking areas along the Finnish coast. I shall look at the substrate names in the area that has been studied most, that is, the Turunmaa archipelago, where ca. 1,000 place names in the Swedish-language nomenclature have been found to be of Finnish origin. However, compared to the Swedish-language nomenclature, the share of substrate names is minimal. Even in those municipalities which have the most names of Finnish origin,their share of the entire nomenclature is less than 3%. Yet, the Finnish language names are prominent and striking in the onomastic landscape of the archipelago. The reason for this is that they belong to the major names in the area: the names of parishes, villages, and important natural features, such as islands and bays (PITKÄNEN 1985, 1990). "For example, in the Lockvattnet region, which is nowadays strongly Swedish-speaking, the loans from Finnish into Swedish (58%) outnumber the loans from Swedish into Finnish (41%) by far, because the majority of the names in the region originate from old Finnish substrate names. In Pyhtää, however, the differences between the languages can be seen in the types of places whose names have been borrowed. The Swedish-speaking population has borrowed more names of natural features than other names from Finnish, whereas the Finnish-speaking population has mainly borrowed the main names of settlements and cultivated land from Swedish." "Another indication of older Finnish settlement is evidenced by the fact that native speakers of Finnish named so many different types of places in the area that the substrate nomenclature seems to consist of names referring to village settlement rather than to names of natural features."

etc.etc. sorry for long direct quoting. I believe by calling me "the extremist" you (sorry) anonymous 128.214.30.138 violates WP:NPA. Clarifer (talk) 09:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Pheww........

"Efter kolonisationen fick kusten nästan helsvensk bosättning; bynamnen är till 70-100% av svensk ursprung. Enligt beräkningar av Saulo Kepsu (Kepsu, Saulo, Uuteen Maahan, Helsinki 2005)är bynamnen mest svenskdominerade i väster (Pojo-Karistrakten) och i öster (Borgå-Pernå) med en svacka i mellersta Nyland)". (Kari Tarkiainen, 2008)

"Östra Nyland var vid 1200-talets mitt ett ännu jungfruligt område än västra Nyland. Landskapet hade karaktären av en ofantlig, nästan obebudd ödemark med en havskust som endast sporadiskt, vid tiden för strömnings och laxfiske, besöktest av finnar från Tavastland samnt troligen även av samer". (Kari Tarkiainen, 2008).

"Finska ortnamn är ovanligt få inom Sibbo, vilket tyder på att området var praktiskt taget folktomt när svenskarna kom" (Christer Kuvaja & Arja Rantanen, Sibbo sockens historia fram till år 1868, 1998)

You try to depict a view that the whole coast was heavily settled by Finns when the Swedes became when in reality there was only sporadic Finnic communities in Åbo-trakten, I might also point that Åbolandscoast holds about 7-10% of all Finland-Swedes, 85-90% of them live in Nyland and Österbotten which were indeed mostly unsettled and definitely lacked permanent settlements before the arrival of Swedes. After Kari Tarkiainen had covered the origins of place names in a very detailed manner using latest research in Åland, Åbo coast, Nyland and Österbooten he refers the situation in follwing chapter: "Inflyttarströmmen från Sverige gick inte bara till de GLEST befolkade kusttrakterna i Finland. De folktomma kusterna i västra och norra Estland började ochså locka folk". The direct translation of "glest" is "sparse". We are not going to make the introductionary chapter of Swedish-speaking Finns as the playground of fenno extremists, we stick in science, hence I remove your quotes and edit the article "The Swedes came to coastal areas of Finland which were sparsely populated at the time".

I might also add that Tarkiainen has written his book in 2008 and had access to about every single study regarding the etymology on place names and archeology in Swedish Finland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.213.160.2 (talk) 10:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Podomi (talk) 10:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to do anything but improve the quality of the article and possibly defend a neutral point of view. I'm not saying anything myself. I'm sorry if the bits of sourced information that I present aren't in line with your own information but that's the way it often goes. You cannot remove sourced information just like that. The proper thing to do is to try and counter-argue the source with another source. So far you're not doing this. I will add my sourced info about the possible demographic situation of Finland's coastal areas as presented by doctor Ritva Liisa Pitkänen of the University of Helsinki [2]. Clarifer (talk) 13:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh and please stop putting words in the mouth of other editors. None of my edits or my comments here have suggested that I assume a dense population anywhere in Finland around 1000AD. Sigh. Clarifer (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I did some changes to the list of Swedish speaking Finns. The big concern is that there´s a list of names of "Finnish origins". This list contains names which were already in the country before church established its records. Names such as Creutz from Pernå and Boije (af Gennäs) from Pojo are from purely Finland-Swedish origins.http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boije_af_Genn%C3%A4s .http://www.riddarhuset.fi/fi/index.php?id=13&sukunro=A001 Moreover, the list of "foreign" families is gathered from names which came to Finland at the time church records were in usage. I believe the list is gathered from Olavi Linnus book, (Linnus, 1935) which suomalaisuuden liitto´s website also advertises. I introduced few names as well, such as the former president of Finland Svinhufvud af Qvalstadt, the family originates from Dalarna, Sweden. Mannerheims paternal ancestor was ennobled in Gävle, Sweden, his paternal side is von Julin from Södermanland, Sweden. Both of thefamilies came to Finland in 18th century. Out of the Mannerheims 32 closest ancestors not a single one was born in Germany apart from the maternal´s maternal von Schantz side. Podomi (talk) 12:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please note that we are talking about the Mannerheim family, not about C.G.E. Mannerheim. The family has several very notable members in addition to Marshal of Finland, and on that line, the family's origin are a topic of interest. It is well founded that the Mannerheim family's founder was Hinric Marhein, a mill owner who immigrated to Gävle in early 17th century and whose son was ennobled.

On the other hand, the list of Swedish-speaking business families should be added with the places of origin. (For example, Ahlströms originate from Merikarvia, founder Antti Ahlström was a Finnish-speaker whose children shifted language, Fazers come from Germany, Sinebrychoffs from Russia etc.) --MPorciusCato (talk) 12:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I reckon Mannerheim´s Swedishness is very sensitive issue for finnish audience, well atleast to the patriotic one. It´s aknowledged that the paternal founder indeed came from Germany to Sweden. The family had lived there (Sweden) about 15 decades and ennobled there. One of the family members came to Finland from Sweden in 18th century, not from Germany. At this point there was hardly anything left of Germany in their culture, linguistics, let alone genome. Mannerheim´s moternal family is von Julin, a family from Södermanland, Sweden which also settled the country in 18th. To say that Mannerheim´s were anything but Swedish is intellectually pretty dishonoust, I reckon. Ahlströms founding father was fully Finnish, there was hardly never been a single Swede in Merikarvia. However, the trick is that Ahltsröms, today are mostly Finnish-speaking as Ahlström himself was, although married Finland-Swedish lady. One can hardly refer that as Finland-Swedish family. 212.213.160.2 (talk) 12:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Podomi, it would greatly enhance the quality of this discussion, if you would make all your edits with your account instead of using several IP addresses.

Please note that I am not disputing the mother-tongue of C.G.E. Mannerheim. I'm simply pointing out your very selective choice of sources in forwarding your bias. In particular, when we are discussing families of 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, it is very interesting to hear the origins of those families. The "ethnicity" or "nationality" of those families is a useless concept, as upper class of those days did not pay any special note to language they used and even changed affiliations to monarchs rather liberally.

I'm surprised about your pointed lack of sophistication when using English. I'm glad to note that C.G.E. Mannerheim was a native Swedish-speaker, yet I would hesitate to call him even a Swede, as this word is not the equivalent of svensk. Words "Swedish" and "Swedishness", without any modifiers, imply loyalty to the Swedish state, which is rather inappropriate when discussing finlanddsvenskar, the Swedish-speaking Finns.

In particular, I find the concept of naming persons finlandssvensk before the advent of the Folktinget and Svenska folkpartiet very odd. Before the era of language strife, all Finns of importance spoke and used Swedish (and called themselves finnar, by the way). The separate concept of being finlandssvensk was invented by Freudenthal. Ever since after that, the finlandssvenskar have been recognized through self-identification, which is still the only method accepted by all Swedish-speaking organizations in Finland. That is, can we call persons who were born Swedish-speaking but did their life's work in Finnish, knowingly supporting other movements than Folkpartiet (or the small Swedish-speaking socialdemocratic fraction), Swedish-speakers? They clearly lacked the self-identification. For example, P.E. Svinhufvud was born into a Swedish-speaking family, but consciously became a Finnish-speaker. Was he a Swedish-speaker in the sense of finlandssvensk? --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear, clarifier,

Ritva Pitkänen has not conducted a study but rather drawn a synthesis of studies, ironically all of the studies she recites are recited by Tarkiainen as well, the only difference is that Tarkiaianen has covered multiple times more sources and had access to latest research (Saulo Kepsu, 2005). And unlike Tarkiainens work Leena Pitkänen´s synthesis does not even cover Österbotten. Tarkainen, does not say Finland´s Swedish coast was largely unhabitet, he says the coast of Österbotten was largely unhabitet including Western Nyland, Eastern Nyland has been according to him and multiple other sources deserted; literally lacking permanent settlement and only received sporadic Tavastian visitors before the Swedes came. The things is that 85-90% of Finland Swedes came to the SPARSELY populated areas, not wholly deserted unlike previously thought. 10-15% of Finland-Swedes were subjected to areas in Abo coast with vivid Finnish communities, how big the Finnic population was is largely unknown. In which extend the coast was settled is perfectly known, it was only sparsely settled prior to Swedes, previously it was though to have been totally empty, this has been the case only in Eastern parts of Nyland. It´s all perfectly known, my little extremist.

"We do not have a general overview of the loan names in Ostrobothnia, so even their number is unknown". (Ritva Pitkänen)

128.214.30.138 (talk) 16:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This site was a playground for fenno extremist, it´s not that anymore. The first Finnish crusade is not semi-legendary it´s mainstream interpretation which, unlike I said yesterday, has been questioned by few historians.

"Det finns ochså en mera kritisk syn, enligt vilken det första korståget aldrig har ägt rum. Uppphovsmannen till denna tolkningen är Curt Weibull, som menar att kung Erik inte kan ha varit den drivande kraften i företaget, än mindre deltagit i det. Flera sentida forskare har anslutit sig till Weibull och menat att berättelsen om det första korståget är en ren saga. En av dem är Dick Harrison, som dock gör det förbehållet att kun Erik kanske ändå `kristnade det finska kustlandet under en av sina plundringsråder på andra sidan Östersjön".

"I motsats till Weibull anser Jarl Gallen att Erikslegenden inte förfaller att vara en hopfantiserad litterär produkt, utan en istort sett trovärdig källä som har skrivits endast ter generation efter helgokungens död....det första korståget passar enligt Gallen fullständigt i miljön. Det va ren härfärd avsedd att etablera kristendomen i Finland och skapa fred bland svenskar och krista finnar i området".

"Ochså en modern forskare, Per Olof Sjöstrand, skriver att ett korståg till sydvästra Finlands norra del passar rätt bra in i bilden av 1150-talets händelseförlopp. Han menar att denna operation, som hade sina rötter i Östergötland, efetr landstigningen fortsatte som ett fälttåg till Aura å, som på 1100-talet för en tid fungerade som Sveriges Östgräns".

Tarkiainen, 2008

So, all in all, the first crusade is mainstream history which has only been questioned by handfull of historians, these views are supported by majority of modern historians, hence we do not use the term "semi-legendary". We can change it to "recently debated". Podomi (talk) 16:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Bullshit. Use a better source.Tarkiainen's book is substandard shit in this regard. Majority of Finnish and Swedish historians are highly sceptical of the historicity of the Crusade. Read Seppo Suvanto, Tuomas M. S. Heikkilä, Jouko Vahtola. Learn basic facts.--91.153.126.178 (talk) 19:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarifie keeps insisting his biased views. The extend which the coast was settled is very well known, all in all it was sparsely populated. Previously it was though the coast was totally empty but this has proven to be false, and if true only was the case in Eastern Nyland. There´s does not exist any debate around this.

Podomi (talk) 17:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I resent the repeated violation of WP:NPA. I think it relevant to the subject that there are Finnish substrate toponyms in today's Swedish speaking areas. If this proof is not mentioned in the text I'm afraid someone will just remove the interpretation that the areas were not uninhabited when settled by people from Sweden. I think the example from Turunmaa/Aboland archipelago is relevant in that it may suggest an event of language-shift which in itself seems a very relevant phenomenon to consider when addressing the Swedish language presence in today's Finland. What do others think? Are my additions relevant and interesting or not? Clarifer (talk) 17:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not whether your arguments bears relevance or not, the issue is that you try to give falsified view of history. Pitkänen, does not cover Österbotten nor even Nyland, she only covers Åbo coast and Pyttis which is in Kymenmaa. Yet you make it sound like the all of the Swedish speaking coast was heavily settled. Like I said 85-90% of the area´s in which Swedes settled were MOSTLY unsettled. As an extremist you are engaging in source manipulating practises. We know from the most recent studies (Saulo Kepsu, 2005) that 70-100% of the place names in Nyland is of Swedish origins. Small share of them are of Estonian origins. The question is do we really need to cover place etymology in the introductionary chapter of Swedes in Finland. We don´t see that in an article covering English colonialist to new world. Every population has absorderd foreign elements in their genepool, however we don´t see anyone else going nuts about it like the Finns. So far I haven´tmet single Afro-centrists who keeps insisting of language changes of britons and spaniards who´ve absorded the about 200 000 African slaves in middle ages. The Germanic Scandinavian raiders in Åbo coast have might indeed absord the few Uralic tribes existing in the area, the key issue is that the Uralics were absorded, not the other way around. This tells something about the balance of power in the area. However, Pitkänen does not insunsiate of language changes, that´s done by you. These Finns could have simply retreated to inland parts of the country towards their Uralic tribal mates. 212.213.160.2 (talk) 07:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I could engage in a long debate about your sources and my sources, however we should engage in to that in the opening chapter of Swedish-speaking Finns. Hence I removed all remarks indicating how settled the coast was. Now, it´s in neutral form "Swedes settled the Southern and Western Coast of Finland". Incase we want to speculate with this more, we should open new section for the topic. About the first crusade, Tarkiainen does not take a heavy stance in it. He only introduces sources. However, he says that there´s been some kind of Swedish led military operation to Egentliga Finland around 1150 for certain. Whether the trip was led by Erik and whether it had emphasis in expanding christianity or simply annex land is still uncertain according to Tarkiainen. It is certainly not "semi-legendary", if its taught in the school books and still supported by the majority of modern researchers. 212.213.160.2 (talk) 07:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm not trying anything. If you think that I quote my sources in a bad way then correct them do not remove them. I believe this quote states that Dr. Pitkänen used all the current (as of 2007) material on Swedish place names in Finland. She bases her deductions BOTH on the whole material AND makes it clearer using two separate local examples. Please read her text more carefully. ""The etymological and historical background of the old Finnish substrate nomenclature was also studied. The most detailed studies concerned the old loan names of Finnish origin in the Turunmaa archipelago (PITKÄNEN 1985, 1990, 1993, ZILLIACUS 1989, 1994, NAERT 1995). So far, publications on Finnish loan nomenclature in Uusimaa have concerned the composition of the collected data and the distribution of name types (PITKÄNEN 2001,2002). We do not have a general overview of the loan names in Ostrobothnia, so even their number is unknown. It seems that, with a few exceptions, there are no place names of Finnish origin in Åland (HULDÉN 1982: 95–102).""In order to draw attention to the features of the individual regions, as well, I shall consider the research not only from the point of view of THE MATERIAL AS A WHOLE, but ALSO from the perspective of the two largest regional material collections of the research with different backgrounds. One of these was collected from the easternmost bilingual region on the coast of the Gulf of Finland, the municipality of Pyhtää (Sw. Pyttis, PITKÄNEN 1975)." Clarifer (talk) 08:25, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to note, dear Podomi, that it is extremely unco to edit with three different usernames or IP addresses. Please log in when you are editing. In addition, you are repeatedly making personal attacks. Calling somebody an extremist is not acceptable. You should also note that this is a clear case of differing opinions. We, and that means each and every one of us, must present all sides compassionately and in neutral manner. Tarkiainen may be a good author, but he is not the only person with a notable opinion. All notable opinions must be presented. --MPorciusCato (talk) 12:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I beg to laugh. The thing is that Pitkänen has not postulated that the coast of Finland was heavily settled by Finns prior to Swedes, she only postulated that finnic settlemenent can be assumed to have been existed in Åbo coast in Kymmene region (Pyttää, her whole article is based on the information from these regions, not the core regions of Swedish settlements Österbotten or Nyland, I cannot even believe how clarifier has balls to refer himself as "Clarifier" the man is nothing but extremist. The whole reason why Clarifier wants to include the work by Pitkänen is to give reader the appearance that linguistic change has happened. He doesn´t care about Swedish-speaking Finns, his sole concern is to make them appear Finns. Well, Pitkänen´s work doesn´t support the idea of language shifts. She claims that there were Finnish named persons in the coast as late as 15th and 16th century. At this period church records were established and these records shows that the intermarriages between the linguistic groups have been extremely few until the very last few(Kari Tarkiainen, 2008). Since Clarifier does not even bother to clarify and recite his source correcrectly I have to do it.

my proposition

"based on extensive reserach on the etymology on place names the extend which the coast was settled is largely known, according to Pitkänens data on the etymology on place names we can gather that Abo Coast and Kymmene region had finnic settelements already prior to Swedes, however according to most recent research the core area´s of Swedes settlements have been largely unhabitet and in some areas deserted" (Kari Tarkiainen, 2008, Saulo Kepsu, 2005, Kuvaja & Rantanen, 1998)"

Or what the heck, I got a better idea, why don´t I just let the Fenno´s extremist manipulate their sources as much as they wish, I just the direct quote by Tarkiainen (2008)

"Från senare tid vet man genom släktforskning att den svenska kustbefolkningen har varit starkt endogam i sin fortplantning, på så sätt att äkta mankar kom från familjer som levde närä samma varandra, ofta i samma by. Så var fallet överallt bland allmogen, även den finska, och man gissar att antalet bland äktenskap mellan kontrahenter från olika språksgrupper under den tid som kyrkoböcker har har förts har hållit sig stadigt under en procentenhet".

Clarifier perhaps you want to clarify your wrtings so that no one start accidently assume what you are assuming? Podomi (talk) 13:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarifier,

the next time you once again go and launch your little source twisting sabotases, remember to mention Tarkiainen´s work last and Pitkänen´s first. Tarkiainen makes his assumption bases on latest research and represents fresher touch, his work is more recent (2008) although, i must mention that there really is no debate around this nor controversalities. Remember to also add Saulo Kepsus work (Uuteen Maahan, 2005) which addresses that after the colonisation the Finnish coast received almost fully Swedish population and that 70-100% of places names in Nyland are of Swedish origins. Make sure to also recite Kuvaja and Rantanen, 1998 who addressed that place origins around Sibbo are 100% Swedish which indicates that the Swedes settled deserted land. And since you are so much into truth and science make sure also to pay a remark on church records in regards to intermarriages between the linguistic groups. Podomi (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ahem, please see the history log of the article. The last two latest reverts was were not done by me. You cannot be the sole judge of what will be added to a wikipedia article and what will be left out. You seem to have different sourced information than what Pitkänen writes. Then go ahead and add this info alongside of Pitkänen's info and interpretations. So far you seem to have shown little good-will, even less co-operation abilites and seem very quick to interpret things according to your own world-view. I personally think you are not being a very helpful wikipedia editor at the time being. Clarifer (talk) 08:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I apologize. If I accused you of something you haven´t done. Anyway, I think it´s fully thanks to me that this site has gone more accurate and informative in regards to who Swedish-speaking Finns are. Before me this site was a mess dominated by few ill-willed fenno extremists, who were only interested in denying etnicity and history of Finland-Swedes. It was fully 100% political history from Fennoman perspective. Still I find lot of unnecessary info which should be in articles dealing the political history of Finland, not Swedish-speaking Finns.

No, excuse me but I began to work with the laughable new sub-section.

BTW why do want to include this speculation, we already have biologic origins chapter.

128.214.30.32 (talk) 13:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

BTW just curious, why do you Finns want to depict Finland-Swedes as language shifters. The odds based on latest genetic research is definitely against you. Even though the Scandinavian raiders would have absorded the Uralic tribes in the Åbo coast, it doesn´t language shift happened. It implies that the Uralics melted to the Scandinavians thanks to intermarriages. I´ve never heard Afro-Centrist claim that English and Portuuguese would have been language shifters althought the people absorder the 200 000 African slaves in Europe which have dissapeared. The Finns in Åbo coast however never dissapeared the area has never been 100% Swedish. Maybe the Scandinavians formed an apartheid and exluded the Uralics from the club. That´s what happened in England during the the Anglos´s and Jutes arrived, the celts were excluded.

With all due respect. There seem to be differences between the views of some of the contributors to this article (and other related articles). This is a normal state of matters and is usually dealt with by trying to find wordings that cater for all the sourced information presented. What is much more disconcerting is the distrust and even hatred that some editors seem to bring into this discourse repeatedly. Some editors speak of myths that need straightening out. At the same time, things like "Simultaneously the growth of population resulted in Swedish settlements in some coastal areas of Finland, largely unsettled at the time." can be found in the article with no mention of the fact that throughout these "largely unsettled" areas a stratum of substrate toponyms exists. This was the start of my contribution. Instead of a repeated myth I tried to present data from the actual situation. Whatever the interpretation might be (and the reader is welcome to make his/her own), I find it an interesting and a relevant fact that this toponym stratum exists. No-one really knows the proportions of the newcomers to the older inhabitants (nor is this necessarily even relevant). The constant "going to extremes" seems to be another trait of the current discussion: the matter is dealt with an either-or approach with little intermediates where in reality typically the "truth lies somewhere in between". There is the talk that this article had been hijacked by "Fennomans" (do the accusors even know what a Fennoman is?). Then how is the situation made better by bringing in the ideas of Freudenthal etc. (See: Finns). These obsolete concepts belong to the 19th early 20th century (not the least because the Fennomanic goal has become reality: There is a Finland with Finnish as an official language.) If it is important for the Finland-Swedes to define themselves in a certain way (and could there there perhaps be more ways than just one?) and if it is important for the minority to differentiate clearly from the majority then so be it. However, when this is done by attempts "basing on objective truths" (and less with simple self-identification), one must be prepared for conflicting information and interpretations rather than clear cut deductions. In the end, an identity is just that: one's self-perception. Clarifer (talk) 09:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If I still see speculations in the article which the scientific studies do not inunsiate, I will add my own speculations as well. Podomi (talk) 13:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Obvious sociological bias is evident in these article discussions. The simple choice of words, referring to Finnish speakers as "Uralic" and "Finno-Ugrian" and at the same time not using the term Indo-European but instead referring to Swedes as linguistically Germanic (in which case the equivalent term is Baltic-Finnic for Finns) is a clear example of ethnic bias. Stressing the ethnic distance by choice of words, intentional or unintentional. Whenever one reads someone juxtaposing terms such as Germanic Swedes and Uralic Finns instead of Indo-European Swedes and Finno-Ugrian Finns you are displaying ethnic bias. And also misusing linguistic categories for such a purpose. So in the future, do refer to both groups with equivalent terminology. Such biased use of wording has no place in science. Germanic/Baltic-Finn, Indo-European/Finno-Ugric etc. --Peterkrister (talk) 09:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

List of surenames at the end

What on earth does the lists of surenames add to the quality, that hasn't been mentioned earlier? It also incorporates a lot of references, which are to the Finnish language wiki...no good. --MoRsE (talk) 16:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree. If it´s up to me we could just have the "notable Swedish-speaking Finns" list, and just add Mikael Agricola in it. Podomi (talk) 07:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, as I noted earlier, using the term "Swedish-speaking Finn" for persons who were active before 20th century is an anachronism. There has not been such group as Swedish-speaking Finns before the Svekomanic awakening caused by Freudenthal. Before the introduction of Finnish as a national language, there were two definite, separate Swedish-speaking groups in Finland. There was the Swedish-speaking population of the coastal areas, and there were the upper and middle classes, which spoke almost consistently Swedish. The interaction between the Swedish rural population and the upper and middle classes was non-existent, and there was no self-identified group of finlandssvenskar. So, as the Folktinget and other Swedish-speaking organizations consider the finlandssvensk identity to be based on self-identification, no one could have that self-identification before the work of Freudenthal. Especially, the Swedish-speaking educated class of early and mid-19th century self-identified as finnar. --MPorciusCato (talk) 18:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed the older genetic studies which I had personally added. I think the older antingen and blood marker studies have very limited value compared to modern genome-wide SNP scans. The older methodologies are not in usage anymore and have not been for about 30 years. Incase someone wants these results back, we could discuss about it, but so far I think it´s better this way. I will be adding new genetic material regarding Finlands Swedes when published.

Podomi (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Who is pushing this line constantly?

"This age old question remains largely unanswered with positions emphasising a settler nature in one extreme and a language-shift phenomenon in the other".

This is wholly pseudo-science, there has never been any debate about the origins of the Swedish minority in mainland Finland. Never. The debate was about whether the Swedish minority in Finland was a "left-over" from ancient Swedish migration from Central-Russia. According to this theory held by many Scandinavian scholars Swedes arrived to Sweden through Finland proper and Åland and the Swedes in Finland were just offshoots of those who never made it to the mainland. This idea was first refuted by the linguistician Axel Olof Freudenthal in the 1860´s, after the 1920´s the scientific mainstream has assessed that the Swedish minority are descended from Swedish settlers in the 12-15th century. This verdict is also supported by modern genetics. There´s never been any speculation of language shift nature of Finland Swedes apart from the modern Fennomans in online discussions. 128.214.30.9 (talk) 11:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Now, let´s put this into pieces, shall we.

1) The origins of Finland-Swedes has never been debated, there is no unanswered questions. The question is answered. This is based on the most latest population genetics and genetics in this issue has an upper hand.

2) Speculations of language-shift has most likely been presented, however I don´t see any sources presented. You haveto remind yourself that these speculations have never been issue in the mainstream historic interpretations.

3) Even if your alleged language-shift would have happened, would this had any impact on Finland-Swedish identity? Hardly. Linguistic and culture are the ultimate definers of etnicity. Genetics plays a trivial part but in the case of Finland-Swedes it seems to be rather important.

I have no other choices but remove your ridicukous chapter. I´ve said this many times before it´s ok for you to recite your sources by saying that there has been Finnish settlements in the areas subjected to Swedish colonization. However, do not exceed your authority with speculations your sources have no share in. If some ought to get banned it should be you. You are desperately keen on your biased views which was already refuted this month along with the forensic Y-STR study by Palo et al. -cheers,

Podomi (talk) 12:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The myth regarding the language shift among Finland-Swedes

Dear all,

once again, the following line is being pushed in its various forms.

"This age old question remains largely unanswered with positions emphasising a settler nature in one extreme and a language-shift phenomenon in the other".

I would like to make this clear fof once.

1) Finland-Swedes are a settler group directly descended from Swedes and thus represents Swedish population extension to Finland, etnoculturally an integral part of mainland Sweden, from strictly nationalistic perspective more or less part of Finland - This is what we know based on modern history reseach and population genetics.

The myth on the language shift nature of Finland-Swedes has revolved in the online discussions for many years now. It´s mostly being based on book by mr. Linnus (1935). In the book mr. Linnus correctly assessed that only 25% of the noble families in Finland have originated from Sweden. This probably resulted in a wide-spread believe that the remaining 75% of the noble families are of Finnish origins and thus the 75% of all Finland-Swedes are of Finnish-origins. No. Here´s the trick

1) Noble class makes only 5% of Finland-Swedes (Raunio, 2000). And out of the noble class only 50% are Swedish-speakers. Czar ennobled many Finnish originated families during the Russian era, most of these families are big and fully finnish-speaking. All in all the noble class is very poor reference group of Swedes in Finland.

2) 50% of the nobility are descended outside of Finland. Mostly from Germany and from the Germans in the Baltic Ritterschaft. In Sweden foreign born noble families account to nearlt 45%.

3) Mr. Linnus assessed that 25% of the noble class were of Finnish origins. They were deemded as Finnish origins since the families had been dwelled in the country before the establishment of church records. Most of these "Finnish"-origin families originate from the Swedish minority of the country (Creutz from Pernå, Boije from Pojo..etc).

I don´t rule out the possibility of language shift, every population has absorded "foreign"-material. However, in the case of Finland-Swedes it would be more proper to discuss about the language shift from Swedish to Finnish.

So, basically what we are seeing is a speculation of language-shift based largely on myths and false information. For most Finns the Finland-Swedes are still only the "5% group" of nobility in the capital of Hälsingfors.

"Från senare tid vet man genom släktforskning att den svenska kustbefolkningen har varit starkt endogam i sin fortplantning, på så sätt att äkta mankar kom från familjer som levde närä samma varandra, ofta i samma by. Så var fallet överallt bland allmogen, även den finska, och man gissar att antalet bland äktenskap mellan kontrahenter från olika språksgrupper under den tid som kyrkoböcker har har förts har hållit sig stadigt under en procentenhet".

Kari Tarkiainen, 2009

Podomi (talk) 11:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, on the contrary, you may very well be right. However, Wikipedia is about verifiable data and you need to source these claims. Claiming something categorically on the talk page is of course a way to open up a discussion, but nobody can claim that they know the truth on a talk page without proper verification by good external sources. Cheers JdeJ (talk) 11:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The article denotes a lot of effort to make all differences vanish between Swedes and Finns. If this really is the case, then why such a fervent aspiration to push the "Swedes are just Finns who changed their language"-agenda? If this article was about gypsies in Finland or other minority groups I wonder whether the Finns would insist the same stuff. I am sensing a dilemma here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.30.9 (talk) 12:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

dear, Jded,

why do you keep constantly pushing this sub-title ==Mostly endogamous settlers, language-shift or both?==. It looks pretty funny when measured against the recent genome-wide SNP which which showed that a sample representing 50% of Finland-Swedes clustered with mainland Swedes, not with Finns. Your actions are borderline trolling. Could you provide atleast one source which would have speculated language-shift from finnish-to-Swedish among Finland-Swedes? No. You cannot because such a source does not exist.

Do you read Swedish?

"Från senare tid vet man genom släktforskning att den svenska kustbefolkningen har varit starkt endogam i sin fortplantning, på så sätt att äkta mankar kom från familjer som levde närä samma varandra, ofta i samma by. Så var fallet överallt bland allmogen, även den finska, och man gissar att antalet bland äktenskap mellan kontrahenter från olika språksgrupper under den tid som kyrkoböcker har har förts har hållit sig stadigt under en procentenhet".

Kari Tarkiainen, 2008

Podomi (talk) 13:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC):

You cannot because such a source does not exist. Quite untrue. Whether it is correct or not, several historical and linguistical studies have claimed that Finnish-speaking Swedes descent partially from language shifters. In fact, it has been the dominant scholarly view. Ph.D. dissertation by Felicia Markus, Living on the Other Shore (2005) has a chapter about the research history of Fenno-Swedish studies, mentioning several such sources. Podomi's view might be right, but at leasts he misrepresents the research history. Podomi, please realize that Wikipedia does not present the ultimate truth of the Fenno-Swedes. Wikipedia refers to various view-points, and there are various view-points on the origin of Swedish-speaking population in Finland. All of those must be referred to in this article in a neutral and positive tone, and that includes the sub-titles! Wikipedia does not define which results or theories are obsolete. I you cannot accept that, Wikipedia is not a right place for you. If you do not believe me, kindly read the Wikipedia rules.--212.146.44.208 (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I´ve only herad speculations of Finland-Swedes marrying Finnish women, however I don´t understand how the children of these marriages can be considered language shifters?

1) Historic nor linguistic studies has absolute zero relevance when measured against genetics.The interpretation will be obviously builded on population genetics in the long run.

2) No of your excerts enunciate language shifts. The fact that Finns have resided near Swedes and in the areas prior the Swedish settlements does not indicate of language shifts.

I remove all your speculation untill I will see direct quote which insist of language shift (preferably from academic source). Wikipedia is about sources not your private speculations upon them. Hence I will remove your edits, they are intellectually dishonoust and fails to support your agenda.

I will also add new genetic material based on very recent study (2008)from university of Helsinki. "The effect of number of loci on geographical structuring and forensic applicability of Y-STR data in Finland".

The y-dna diversity was measured in Finland. Finland-Swedish sub-population from Larsmo (LMO) was included in the study here´s the main the results.

Here´s about the sub-populations used.....

"The samples were assigned to 12 subpopulations according to the current place of residence of the donors: Turku (TU), Uusimaa (UU), Häme (HA), Vaasa (VA), Kymi (KY), Central Finland (CF), Mikkeli (MI), Kuopio (KU), Northern Carelia (NC), Oulu (OU), Lapland (LA) and Larsmo (LMO; Fig. 1)These subpopulations correspond to the former Finnish administrational provinces,except LMO which is a relatively isolated island region of the Vaasa province. This locality was included in the study as it is an almost exclusively Swedish-speaking community".

and the results.

"The subpopulation LMO differed significantly from all the other populations".

again, according to the study Swedish-speaking reference population formed a seperate genetic cluster outside the Finnish-speaking populations.

The difference was extreme when measured against the population of Kymi which is staggering since there is only 400km which seperates them.

"The geographical substructure among the Finnish males was notable when measured with the ΦST values, reaching values as high as ΦST=0.227 in the Yfiler data. This is rather extreme, given that, e.g., subpopulations Larsmo and Kymi are separated by mere 400 km, with no apparent physical dispersal barriers between them".

so I will add this, "The subpopulation LMO differed significantly from all the other populations" in the text. Podomi (talk) 11:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You cannot have just give a name of an author you have to give the direct source as well. I might just point to you that genetics has answered to your age old questiions and speculations.

These questions are answered. It was once again obvious in the recent study I referred to. It´s rather ridiculous from you to claim that emphasizing the settler nature of Finland-Swedes is extreme while we just last month we heard how the difference in y-str diversity among Finland-Swedes sub-population and Finns is significant and even extreme at best (J Palo et al, 2008). The mainstream view of history has never denoted any weight on language-shift theory of Finland-Swedes. This is all myths and your wild imaginations. If you disagree, I am still waiting the source. Wikipedia will not become a haven for your wild agenda, we stick to to science and when it comes to deciding about the settler nature of Finland-Swedes the population genetics will have an upper hand.

BTW

Do you have any idea how Genaland clustering works? It is not based on interpretations of results, it is a result. The methodology reads genetic data and assigns populations to a given clusters, interpretation has no value in it, unlike in your sources.

(2008). Podomi (talk) 12:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The only problem here is the fact that you do not understand at all what Wikipedia is. You must now realize that this is not a science site. Personally I might agree with you regarding the relative merits of population genetics and history, but not everyone might agree. Wikipedia does not have any opinion on this question! Wikipedia does not discuss the relative merits of different theories and does not support claims of any science having "upper hand" on any issue. Your (and mine) personal opinions of this matter are, really, of zero relevance in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is absolutely neutral, not scientific. Do not whine to me, check out the rules instead. I have absolutely no interest to continue a historical debate with you. Wikipedia is not a proper place for it anyway. The only thing that matters is the fact Wikipedia is not about truth, it is about claims, theories and view-points discussed in the sources we refer to. Unlike you, I have no political or ideological agenda regarding this issue. I am only aware that different theories do exist. I do not claim that the language-shift theories are correct, I am not trying to disprove you. I am only trying to make sure that all various theories are presented in a neutral tone. This is how Wikipedia works, but you have violated the principle of neutrality again and again. It is vandalistic and abusive behavior, and if you continue it, you will be reported.--130.234.5.137 (talk) 14:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of ethics of science? None of your sources enunciate your point, your argument and your agenda. This is something you made up yourself. The very moment I see an academic article or another source by academian which insist of language-shift, then the source is valid. So far you´ve failed to back your agenda with credible sources. I refer to your argument as an agenda because you are so desperately keen on it, despite the genetics and church records work against you despite no of your sources enunciate it. The credibility of the whole chapter is being questioned. It´s unnecessary chapter which I will remove. The article of Swedish-speaking Finns deserves better. It´s ridiculous to claim that a side emphasizing the settler nature of Finland-Swedes is extreme. Extreme is to insist the opposite, that´s against mainstream history interpretation and modern population genetics.

Podomi (talk) 16:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I will remove our questionable chapter; whether Finns have lived in area´s prior to Swedish settlement is irrelevant issue for Finland-Swedishness. We are not going to dedicate a chapter of whether sub-saharan africans resided South-Africa prior the arrival of Afrikaaner in a chapter discussing briefly of Afrikaaner people, language and culture. The history of Finland-Swedes is the history of Swedish-people. Not the history of Finnish settlement or the lack of them. There´s enough discussion about it in the discussion page.

The article already now puts too much emphasis of Finland-Swedes and Finland-Swedishness in relation to Finns. Probably because the whole article has been subjected to contributions mostly by Finns.

So howabout? Let´s dedicate this thread to Swedes in Finland, the Finns already have their article.

Podomi (talk) 16:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC) Podomi (talk) 16:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no fucking argument. It is only the neutrality principle I am trying to defend here.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Don´t get obscene, if you´d care about neutrality you wouldn´t start to speculate with your sources and twist them, instead you´d just present them how they are.

Podomi (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

do not add your chapter aimed to support your biased argument. We already have chapters of Swedes biologic origins and their identity in Finland. Podomi (talk) 16:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be more easy to maintain patience if you followed the Wikipedia rules and stopped distortive claims of my imagined "agenda". I have presented an academic source, citing a philologist, presenting an interpretation of Finnish farms and villages becoming Swedish-speaking. I do not know if it is a correct theory, in fact I do not care so much - but obviously there is a suggestion or at least hypothesis of some kind of settlement and population continuity, as the source do not mention a genocide of the Finns. You cannot delete referenced information of theories you find unlikely or displeasant.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

In any case, the debate of the origin of Swedish-speakers in Finland is a part of the whole finlandsvensk discourse, and hardly an irrelevant matter for the minority. The chapter could be expanded to cover even more diffuse range of various theories, such as the suggestion of Swedish-speakers living around already in the Viking Age.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 16:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Look, you are nothing but agenda. You have presented a study which address that Åboland archipelago and Kymmene region of Finland, both peripheral parts of Swedish settlements in Finland, had Finnish population prior the arrival of Swedes. Fine. Now where does your study insist a language shift happened? The area still has Finnish population. Your argument might be valid but it´s a speculation not based on the authors verdict. You insist about lack of genocides as the ultimate proval of assimilation. There´s multiple other choices like finns abanding their settlements or co-existing with the Swedes. We don´t know and we certainly do not speculate.

Podomi (talk) 16:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Could present the study as the it self elaborates it. That there was a Finnish population prior the arrival of Swedes in Åboland and Kymmene region. Do not exceed your authority by speculation of language shifts which no of your studies enunciate. So long you keep speculating I will keep erasing your chapter.

Podomi (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

There´s no various points of the origin of Finland-Swedes. The genetics will be taken by default. The origins of person is revealed in his or her genome, not in the linguistics or the fact that Finns have lived in Swedish-speaking regions. The best we have is the most recent scientific studies. Science develope whole the time and after twenty we know lot more. Let´s not speculate

Podomi (talk) 16:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact the results of the recent study on Y-STR´s I posted implies that the founding fathers of Swedes in Finland have had very different genetic make-up as the Finnish founding fathers had and it´s apparent in the present genetic structure of the two populations. This is very good additional information on the biologic origins chapter. So much of your language-shift theory. Moreover, I could add that the genetic diffrence of Finland-Swedes and Finns represents biggest genetic border in Europe. This is an obvious conclusion one makes after this and genome wide-SNP studies + plenty of others. However, since I am not an authority to say that, although it´s apparent, I will not address it in the text. I would address it if the scholars would have put in the way I put it. That´s the difference between me and you, I don´t speculate with sources. I deliver them as they are. I expect you do the same in the future.

Podomi (talk) 17:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you get upset and marked the whole article as being questioned. Is it so depressing that the Swedes of Finland are actually Swedes. Whoopydoo. Poor you. It´s really sad that your "The origins of Finland-Swedes is heavily debated issue"-argument or rather trolls does receive support from scientific community. If it did you´d already presented the non-existing sources.

Podomi (talk) 17:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Unlike you insists, the genetics will not be taken by default in Wikipedia. Nor will any other science.- Actually, even the pseudo-scientific views should be presented in the article, if they are widely supported among non-scientific community. I repeat: Wikipedia is not a science site. Read the god-damn rules at last!!!! Wikipedia rulers insist on absolute neutrality: all view-points should be presented in a neutral tone. You cannot change that principle, although you make heroic efforts attempting that. This makes you a troll - the only troll involved in this discussion. As you kept deleting an important part of the article, you imbalanced and disturbed the neutrality of the whole text.

Professor Lars Huldén maintains that in one area of Svenskfinland there were early medieval Finnish villages and farms who became Swedish. Obviously, this theory has no room for the co-residence as the explanation: at least some Finns were assimilated. It is extremely strained and naive to suggest that the Finns simply moved away and left their abodes for the Swedish settlers with their topographical names and all. You cannot be seriously maintaining that as a possibility, if you know anything at all about settlement history. Either Lars Huldén is wrong with his theories or assimilation of some Finns in this one area is very likely - at very least, it is an hypothesis to be taken seriously. Okay, I admit that this my conclusion based on one citation; however, it is not speculation but the only conclusion logically possible. But I must check out the Huldén's book to see what conclusions he explicitly presents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.234.68.222 (talk) 09:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is fine to point out that the idea of Finland-Swedes being almost exclusively language-shifters has no support among scientists. Some scholars have presented evidence of early Finnish settlement in some parts of Svenskfinland, implying at least that there may have been a degree of population continuity from Finns to Swedes. Recent DNA studies seem to imply that this cannot have been a very significant element in the core areas. Fine. An interesting piece of information. I must add, however, that my knowledge on this issue in limited in your presentations - and I have absolutely no trust of you being an neutral or trustful editor, as I believe that you are motivated by fanatical Blut und Boden nationalism. If someone else with less obvious ideological interest in the issues confirms your presentations, I have absolutely no need to disagree with you. In other words, I believe that the your claims of the Swedish-speaking Finns being genetically identical with Swedes might be completely true. However, I won't accept it because of your word only. And even if I accept it, as I probably will have to do, Wikipedia will continue presenting even the alternative, less well supported or pesudo-scientific theories. And even if Finland-Swedes are genetically same as Swedes, this does not automatically make them ethnic Swedes, as the ethnicity resides in the self-identity and not in the genes. The self-identity of the Swedish-speakers in Finland is a very complicated issue, but only a disgusting bully can make sweeping claims of the Swedish-speakers being simply "Swedes". I know Swedish-speakers who have a very strong finlandssvensk identity and who would kick you on the balls because of sucha generalization, reminiscent of the Nazi racial "science". Do you think that they are traitors of the Swedish nation? Why on earth must you mix DNa studies with an authoritarian nationalist ideology?

As you notice, I am not trying to prove your arguments wrong, because I tend to believe that they are more or less correct. Results of the DNa research might not be quite as clear-cut or black-and-white as you like to present them, but I find it probable that core of your argument is basically true. However, Wikipedia does not give a s**t about your or mine personal convictions. The only reason I am opposing you is the way you are violating the NPOV principle and abusing Wikipedia as a tool of nationalistic identity policy, disguised as science.

Your accusation of my "agenda" are rather pitiful. Perhaps you are so deeply involved with a ultra-nationalistic black-and-white world-view that you are unable to conceive anyone working on the basis of neutrality. However, I believe that a some kind of a compromise is attainable. The article can include a research historical over-view presenting the most influential theories of this politically over-sensitive issue.

Well, I can admit one "agenda". I dislike of all kinds of nationalist chauvinism, including the Svecoman and Fennoman ones. In Finnish Wikipedia, I had an argument with Finnish nationalist who claimed that Swedish-speaking Finns are nothing but language-shifters.--130.234.68.222 (talk) 09:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. Before you delete the chapter again, please check out my recent compromise-oriented edits and think if you can edit the chapter in a NPOV way. So far, you have repeatedly violated the practice, and that might result of you being banned.--130.234.68.222 (talk) 09:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, let´s put this into pieces, shall we. Please, no more "My friend tells me you are wrong and would kick your arse"-argument.

1) The origins of Finland-Swedes has never been debated, there is no unanswered questions. The question is answered. This is based on the most latest population genetics and genetics in this issue has an upper hand.

2) Speculations of language-shift has most likely been presented, however I don´t see any sources presented. You haveto remind yourself that these speculations have never been issue in the mainstream historic interpretations.

3) Even if your alleged language-shift would have happened, would this had any impact on Finland-Swedish identity? Hardly. Linguistic and culture are the ultimate definers of etnicity. Genetics plays a trivial part but in the case of Finland-Swedes it seems to be rather important.

I have no other choices but remove your ridiculous chapter. I´ve said this many times before it´s ok for you to recite your sources by saying that there has been Finnish settlements in the areas subjected to Swedish colonization. However, do not exceed your authority with speculations your sources have no share in. If some ought to get banned it should be you. You are desperately keen on your biased views which was already refuted this month along with the forensic Y-STR study by Palo et al. -cheers,

Ouh, what comes to Finland-Swedes, there´s no pure populations, once again. Every population has absorded "foreign" elements to a given degree. I think it´s rather naive to imply that Finland-Swedes would not be Swedes, because in Sweden there happens to one more "pure" Swede. Finland-Swedes are simple Swedish population extension to Finland, Eastern Swedes, no more no less. The fact that Finns disdain the idea of Swedes in Finland being Swedes is rather sad and tells about a dilemma. State borders and passport changes in a lot more faster pace than etnicity. Podomi (talk) 12:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Podomi (talk) 12:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

someone mentioned that genetics alone do not determine etnicity, no they certainly don´t. Language and culture are the most important issues. Now, Finland-Swedes speak Swedish, lives in Swedish culture and are genetically......defining Swedes of Finland is really not rocket science.

Podomi (talk) 12:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am willing to compromise to the extend that we can have your place-name semantic studies but we present the, as they are. Directly recited. Your own private speculation and interpretations have no room here.

I personally refrain from speculations and stick to direct citats, I expect you do the same. Podomi (talk) 12:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll check the Lars Huldén's book when I can. Until then, the current form of the article can prevail. Of course, the only person pushing biased views here are you. You still don't get the fact that any objective condition do not define the ethnicity of anybody - not the genes, not the language nor even the cultural traditions. The only thing that defines the ethnicity is the prevailing discourse maintained by the group in question. Language, culture, genes etc. influence the identity only inasmuch they are referred to in the identity discourse. According to my knowledge - and my knowledge here is equally good than yours - Finland-Swedes tend maintain a separate identity distinct of both Swedes and Finns. Language and some cultural traditions separate them from the ethnic Finns, native country and the feeling of historical affinity with Finns separate them from the ethnic Swedes. So they are ethnic Finland-Swedes, a small nation of their own. Simple, isn't it? If you think I'm wrong, provide sources and stop your meaningless speculations.

At least so far you haven't presented any evidence for the suggestion that the traditional Swedish-speakers in Finland generally consider themselves to be Swedes. I believe some do, but some others are offended by the whole chauvinistic concept of "Eastern Swedes". This is the only thing that matters. Yes, this is not exactly rocket science, so it is astonishing that you miss the whole point and continue your incoherent nationalist rants. It is quite ridiculous that you claim to have refrained from speculations, when your whole message seems to be wild unreferenced speculation of the Finland-Swedish ethnicity.--212.146.44.208 (talk) 13:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

you raise interesting issues, but again I could point out that the whole discourse on finlandssvenskhet is rather a joke, Finland-Swedishness lies on an artificial groundings. The (eastern) Swedish linguistican, doctor Leif Höckerstedt (2000) views Swedes of Finland only as continuum of Swedish population, an eastern extension of Swedes, Östsvenskar. This is also my personal view of the matter which I so far haven´t expressed in the text at all, though. Finland-Swedishness is such even exist is only an extension of the greater Swedish community. The two hundred years which the Swedes in eastern part of the former kingdom has been seperated has diverged them culturally from their ethnic Swedish brethren in proper Sweden, but the differences are minor. It´s just extension of the greater Swedish ethnic family.

You are not a proper person to raise a debate about (eastern)Swedishness, that´s for sure.

128.214.37.123 (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

"but some others are offended by the whole chauvinistic concept of "Eastern Swedes".

As Leif Höckerstedt pojnts out in his book (2000) Finland-Swedes, atleast in Helsinki are raised to not raise a fuss of their Swedishness out for a sympathy for Finns. This is rather sad kind of persion of the politically correct culture which reigns in Finland. Ethnicity and sense of love for fatherland is two diffrenet issues. 128.214.37.123 (talk) 15:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Identity

I am not wasting my time by answering Podomi, who sticks to his obsessive nationalist ideas as if they were the only possible way to conceive the finlandssvensk identity. It is profoundly disgusting and shocking to see how he dismisses the whole Swedish-speaking identity in Finland as a "joke". He tries to declare who should not be allowed to even discuss this issue! That is behaviour suitable for an extremist bully. Truly sad, because I believe that Swedes and Finland-Swedes in general dislike authoritarian bullying ("your identity is a joke") and nationalist extremism. Unfortunately for Podomi, historians and social scientists tend to agree nowadays that all ethnic discourses are more or less artificial - this does not mean that they inessential or devoid of value.

Perhaps we could have something like this in the article (of course, references must be found and vagues expression of "some Finland-Swedes" should be defined).

Identity of the Swedish-seaking Finns is historically complicated. The concept of finlandssvensk was widely adopted around 1890 - 1920, when the traditional Swedish-speaking upper class first found a common identity with Swedish-speaking farmers, fishers and industrial workers. During the 20th century, some of the Swedish-speakers in Finland have explicitly identified themselves with the ethnic Swedes living in Sweden. The identification of the Swedish-speaking Finns with the ethnic Swedes is based on the shared language, cultural affinity and the common historical origin. On the other hand, many/some Swedish-speaking Finns are hesitant or refuse to identify themselves as ethnic Swedes, because of the separate home country, separate history since the early 19th century and affinity with the Finnish society. According to the study by N.N., especially the Swedish-speaking Finns living in the bilingual cities in South Finland tend to blah-blah-blah, whereas the Swedish-speakers in Ostrobothnia tend to this-and-that. According to a study published in xxxx, the Åland Islanders tend to identify themselves as ethnic Swedes more often than the... + 128.214.37.123 (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I am assuming now that such studies of the finlandssvensk identity exist, but it would be astonishing if they didn't.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

First, I don´t understand what the fuss about. I have not implied in the text that Finland-Swedes are (eastern) Swedes. In fact I have written nothing about the ethnic identity of Finland-Swedes. I have only added recent genetic data and corrected false speculations. Nevertheless people has accused me of being extremist. The ones refusing and denying the right of Finland-Swedes for ethnic Swedish identity should ask whether they are chauvinist and xenophobic themselves.

Podomi (talk) 15:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

At least I am nor refusing anything for anyone. I am only trying to respect what different people think on themselves. If the Swedish-speaking Finns start to think "We're Swedes after all", fine and OK and respectable. But no one can tell them that they should do so.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

anyway, rather sad insults I am receiving. Not once have I offended Finns in the thread, I am wondering what´s so vicious and mean for Finland-Swedes to be Swedes, part of greater Swedish community in Finland. There´s very little room for chauvinistic and xenophobic attitudes in wikipedia.

128.214.30.44 (talk) 15:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There´s very little room for chauvinistic and xenophobic attitudes in wikipedia. At least I can agree on this. If you are offended by the word "chauvinist", why did you label Finland-Swedish identity as a "joke"? If that was not chauvinism, I cannot imagine what is. And you keep distorting all my comments. I haven't suggested anywhere that it is vicious or mean if Finland-Swedes consider themselves to be ethnic Swedes. The point is that not all of them do, not at the present at least - and it is vicious and mean to bypass what they think of their own identity.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 15:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I referred Finland-Swedish culture as a joke, because that what it is. Finland-Swedishness cannot be perceived seperately from Swedish culture, you have to look beyond. Talking about "Finland-Swedishness" as some seperate entity is a ridiculous as starting to talk about "Västerbotten-Swedish culture". Regional cultural varieties exist but we cannot tear Finland-Swedishness apart from greater Swedish family.

I am adding citats from a book by Leif Höckerstedt (2000) Leif Höckerstedt is Finland-Swedish linguistican and scholar in the university of Helsinki.

From the chapter "Finlandssvenskarna och riksvenskarna hör samman".

   "Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas 
    språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel OLof 
    Freudenthals bygdessvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelsskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna 
    är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar".

Östsvenskar is rather natural term considering that the dialect of Finland-Swedes is referred as "Östsvenskamål" by Scandinavian linguistics.

This is very important idea of Leif Höckerstedts book.

   "Med finnarna har finlandssvenskarna åter en viktigt politisk gemenskap, men detta innebär 
    inte en etnisk gemensam grupptillhörighet".

Finns and Swedes in Finland are united by common political interest, however in terms of ethnicity and culture there´s no common ground. Podomi (talk) 07:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW Höckerstedt also refers to Pitkänens semantic studies of geographic names. He address that the Swedish settlers encountered Finns, atleast in Åbotrakten, from whom they took the names. I see paraller situation with Anglo-Saxon settlers in US, they met aboriginals (indians) and took their names for their new lands. However, speculating that the American settlers would have been language-shifters, from asiatic languages to english is rather ridiculous.

Podomi (talk) 08:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Höckerstesdt's view-point is respectable - but of course it is also a completely subjective view-point of a single man, who cannot dictate how all others should think and feel. Too bad you cannot accept that not all Finland-Swedes consider themselves as "East Swedes". That's your problem. I have no problems with Finland-Swedes who consider themselves as Swedes and I am not calling their Swedish identity as a joke - but I'm not a chauvinistic bully-boy after all.

Are you really unable to comprehend that identity is not based on measurable cultural differences or similarities, but only on subjective feelings of distinction and affinity. You cannot change that simple fact by repeating your offensive and authoritarian generalizations. Your bizarre claim that Finns and Finland-Swedes have no common cultural ground is nothing but petty xenophobic and rascist nonsense. Although some differences certainly exist, there are more shared features in the cultural traditions of those two groups. Of course, Finns have a lot of shared culture with the proper Swedes as well.--130.234.68.223 (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC) Edit This debate is complete waste of time, and I'm not going to continue it.

By defining culture, I took rather strick view. Swedes in Finland and Sweden are obvioysly very different compared to finns in terms of linguistics and ancestry.

128.214.30.147 (talk) 13:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Why are Finnish speaking people, (we) that have Swedish speaking ancestry, never viewed as being partially Finland-Swedes? It's because the Swedish-Finnish identity is only skin deep. Once the language is gone, so is the identity. Gypsies in Finland are viewed as being gypsies no matter what language they speak. Their identity is in culture and customs, not in language or genetics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deliriumus (talk • contribs) 10:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Finnish-speaking people with Swedish ancestry are never viewed as partially Finland-Swedes because that would not be politically correct. Remember that after second half of the 1800´s Finland was caught by romantic fever of one people with one national character. The concept of nationhood among finns is pretty much similar even today, speaking about differences between swedish-speakers and finnish-speakers in any other linguistic level is almost criminalized. I define person´s ethnicity judging by his or her parentage, not language. To me you are definitely are partially Swedish if you have Swedish ancestry.

128.214.30.60 (talk) 13:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong and unscientific title

To say that Finland Swedes are Finns are unscientific and completely wrong. Genetical studies have shown that Finland Swedes are generally genetically identical to Mainland Swedes, and are different from the Finns. Se e.g. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003519. The title for this article should thus be Finland Swedes. Östsvensk (talk) 13:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

What do the genetics have to do with the identity of this group? I know a number of Finns who have descended from Russians, and my family tradition tells about a Hungarian forefather in the 17th century. Indeed, I know Finns with African ancestry. The Swedish-speaking Finns themselves note that genetics and family ties do not play a role in the group's self-identification: you're a Swedish-speaking Finn, if you tell you are one. So, I fail to see why the name of this article should be changed on the basis of genetics. --MPorciusCato (talk) 14:05, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll position myself between the two of you. First, I agree with MPorciusCato about the irrelevance of genetics. If we started to use genetics to describe the nationality of people, we would end up with very surprising results. There's no such thing as a "genetic people" coinciding perfectly with an "ethnic people", a "language group" or a "culture". Having said that, most Swedidsh-speaking Finns call themselves Finland-Swedes in English, and I find that rather more relevant than genetics.JdeJ (talk) 14:24, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if most do refer to themselves as 'Finland-Swedes' in English, but if so, it's highly likely to be influenced by attempting to directly translate from the Swedish without taking context into account, a common mistake when translating if not a professional (i.e. jag är finlandssvensk, I am a Finland-Swede'). As for genetics, I've read reports that suggest both things. I think the recent one that found many similarities to Swedish-Swedes only looked at Swedish-speaking Finns in Österbotten. It didn't take into account Nyland or Åboland, for example. Other surveys in the past have found it more or less impossible to distinguish between the two language groups using genes. So, I think the jury is out. In any case, it's not that relevant to self-identification. 94pjg (talk) 14:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Without denying what you say, I'm a 'finlandssvensk' and a linguist and I would hesitate about calling myself a "Swedish-speaking Finn". My impression is that most of the people I know with a higher education use "Finland-Swede" while those less familiar with English (and using it less often) may say "Swedish-speaking Finn". This is just a personal observation, of course. As for genetics, once again, I've also read very conflicting reports but no matter what the outcome of that debate will be, it's unlike to influence self-identification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JdeJ (talk • contribs)

That's interesting. I am also a Swedish-speaking Finn, and that's the term I use in English in order to emphasise the Finnish part rather than 'Swede', which I find tends to confuse non-Finnish friends/colleagues etc (who end up not understanding and asking you some weeks later "where abouts in Sweden are you from?" etc ;) ). I think many Swedish-speaking Finns also avoid this construction in favour of the direct 'translation' Finland-Swede because they assume Finn has the same connotations in English as the word finne, which it of course does not. I must say, I have not really paid enough attention to the matter to make any observation on the types of people employing the various terms. However, I would not consider myself lacking in higher education and I use English daily. I have no problem with either term, I just find that non-Finns find 'Swedish-speaking Finn' easier to understand. 94pjg (talk) 10:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

He he, I certainly didn't mean to imply any inferior education :) I agree about the problem with Finland-Swede, and I'm not to keen on that term either. What I usually say is that come from Finland and Swedish is my native language, but that's not a very suitable title, to say the least. JdeJ (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I did some changes to genetic section; it included a reference to a study from 1979 by Nevanlinna, if old studies are to be included, then for the sake of neutrality of the article, we have to include international studies which have implied "significant" and "considerable" genetic differences between Swedes in Finland and Finns and from the same era, furthermore these studies have implied indistinguishablenes of Swedes on both sides of Baltic sea. The 80´s stuff is methodologically very outdated,I are the technology of the period is no longer used in population genetics. I also removed some text which was very speculative, unreferenced and against the neutrality principles of Wiki.Podomi (talk) 20:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

"I am also a Swedish-speaking Finn, and that's the term I use in English in order to emphasise the Finnish part rather than 'Swede', which I find tends to confuse non-Finnish friends/colleagues etc (who end up not understanding and asking you some weeks later "where abouts in Sweden are you from?" etc ;)"

I am part of the Swedish minority of Finland. In english context I always use the term Swede while speaking about myself. Incase of a further inquiry I tell that I am from Finland. Finns do not have a monopoly over Finland, nor do artificial state-borders in the Baltic sea divide Swedes. Based on history, ancestry and culture, the term Swedish-speaking Finn makes as much of a sense as "Somali-speaking Finn". The term is basically made up to cater political goals and the low self-confidence of Finns. Then again I understand that many offsprings of the recent bi-langual-(racial?) marriages want to emphasize the Finnish part. That´s ok, however I think we shouldn´t let these people hijack the Swedish identity debate.Podomi (talk) 06:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Podomi, I suspect you are misinformed. Term "Somali-speaking Finn" makes perfect sense, indeed. --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Majority of Somali´s do not want compromise their ethnicity with Finns nor do they believe their somalic ethnicity shrinks into a "somali-speaking" while they cross the borders of their ethnic homeland. You are obviously very disinformed whith the matter; could you please provide me one example of usage of "Somali-speaking Finn". Finland harbors three traditional ethnicities, Swedes, Finns and Sami´s. Swedes and Sami´s are not Finns unless they agree to identify themselves as such. This is not only about the language itself which is only one pilar of ethnicty. The term "Swedish-speaking Finn" is an insult to my heritage, culture and ethnic self-identity, obviously it´s not a neutral term as opposed to "Finlands Swede". Although, even the terms Finland-Swede (finlandssvensk) is a product of political compromise from the aftermath of WW2 when the Swedes of Finland wanted to show that they are loyal to Finland but not quite Finns. However the term "Finland-Swede" is more approriate and direct translation of the term "finlandssvensk" which bears also ethnic connotation which is not only restricted to language.

"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden".

Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedish wheel of migration.Identity, networks and integration 1976-2000.

Leif Höckerstedt writes very well today in HBL: "Nu har det blivit opportunt att använda svensktalande eller svenskspråkig finländare eller finne (på engelska swedish-speaking finns, ej Finland-Swedes) och samtidigt antyda att det bara är frågan om språk, ett kommunikationmedel, som skiljer svensk och finne i Finland". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.30.15 (talk) 12:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Is there any possibility to change the title of the article to more propriate title?Podomi (talk) 08:55, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

A Finn = Finnish citizen. If a person has a Finnish citizenship, then she is a Finn, regardless of "ethnicity". This means that finne is a completely different concept. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you show a source which illustrate the semantic construction of the word "Finn"? In my opinion it implies simply Fenno-Ugrian or more specifically a group of Baltic-Finns. Moreover, even if "Finn" would be entirely term of nationality, an expression "Swedish-speaking" is non-neutral term as it has no ethnic connotation unlike the term finlandssvenk. Swedish-Finn would be more appropriate, given the "Finn" is indeed only a term of passport. Although the most appripriate would be Finland-Swede, which is still used in academic context. Podomi (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

All in all, the term "Swedish-speaking Finns" is part of similar political tactics which the Chinese exercise against the Tibetians, in other words, an attempt to illegitimise the status and peculiarity of national minority in order to advance political goals under the strategy of "one folk, one state, one ruler".

The English language meaning of Finn (i.e., somewhere along the lines as MPorciusCato suggests) has everything to do with what the meaning of the word 'Finn' is in the English-speaking world of 2009, not what it's semantic history meant. The words that are behind the origin of 'Finn' may well have referred to the Sami and general northern people in the very dim, distant past, but that has little relevance to its contemporary meaning. I am happy to say that I am a Swedish-speaking Finn when using the English language, as I am completely aware that no English-speaking person will confuse Finn to mean exclusively those Finns who speak Finnish as their mother tongue (along the lines of the way at least we Swedish-speaking Finns use finne; of course, we shouldn't kid our selves, even many of the Sweden-Swedes are ignorant of the nuances finländare-finne-finlandssvensk etc in our own common tongue). 94pjg (talk) 13:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

You failed to bring anything but your own personal view on the matter and semantic construction of the word "Finn". I find the term "Swedish-speaking Finn" as somewhat insulting to my own ethicity, I am a Swede, a Finland-Swede. I am also a Swedish-speaking, but there´s more than just language. Incase you are sure that no English speaker assume that not all finns speak finnish as their native tongue, then why do you bother to say you are "Swedish-speaking", shoulnd´t you just say you are a Finn?

Finland-Swedish scholar Leif Höckerstedt recently wrote about history of the of the word "finlanssvensk": [b]"Från början var det självklart att man kunde vara svensk i Finland. Då Finland blev självständigt var det politiskt befogat att använda finlandssvensk för att markera statstillhörigheten. Begreppet riksvensk användes för att hänvisa till svenskar i Sverige. Nu har det blivit opportunt att använda svensktalande eller svenskspråkig finländare eller finne (på engelska swedish-speaking finns, ej Finland-Swedes) och samtidigt antyda att det bara är frågan om språk, ett kommunikationmedel, som skiljer svensk och finne i Finland"[/b].

It would never cross my mind to refer Sami´s as "Sami speaking finns". It´s clear to me and to Sami´s that the ethnicity of Sami´s are nor defined by artificial state borders in Northern Europe. Perhaps that´s the reason we don´t have wikipedia article by the name of "Sami speaking finn". Why would Swedes make an exception? Does anyone know about the procedures of how to change to name of the article from the politically motivated term "Swedish-speaking Finns" to "Finland-Swedes"?Podomi (talk) 12:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

But you also do nothing other than bring your own personal opinion, which seems to be that Swedish-speaking Finns should not be considered ethnically Finnish, rather ethnically Swedish. That is a matter of contention in itself with no single answer. In other words, you base your terminology on ethnicity primarily. I do not do that. There are plenty of people that I would call Finnish (of both language groups, Finnish and Swedish) that ethnically are neither originally from Finland or Sweden. There are many, many Swedish-speaking Finns who do not have their roots in Sweden at all. But, we are talking about the article in the English language Wikipedia here. We must not forget that. In the English language, Finn does not carry language-based connotations. It is an inclusive term, or perhaps more accurately, it simply ignores the matter of language completely. I would happily say that I am a Swede in the Swedish-language - in a Finland-based context. But, in the English-language, the term Swede clearly has far, far stronger connotations as meaning "of Sweden" than it does in Swedish when used in Finland. Of course, again, we shouldn't kid ourselves to think that most Sweden-Swedes think of the word svensk as referring to anything more than Swedes from Sweden. For that reason, I probably wouldn't say that I am svensk to a rikssvensk. It may be an unhappy reality, but reality is what this Wikipedia article must try to represent as closely as possible. As I have said above, I have no problem with the term Finland-Swede, but I think it's a questionable term when one considers how it may be understood in the English language. 94pjg (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I bring personal view on the discussion and the view is that I consider the term "Swedish-speaking finn" to be insulting, well, insulting may be a harsh word, but let say that I am not confortable with this politically motivated term. As response to inquiries of the correctness of the term, I´ve only received personal opinions of the semantic construction of the term Swedish-speaking Finn. We don´t have a wikipedia article of "Sami speaking finns" nor "Finnish-speaking Swedes", about the finns who live in Sweden. The term, "Finland-Swedes" is often used in English-speaking academic context, even the just the plain "Swede" is used in the context of Finland-Swedes.

"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden". Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedish wheel of migration.Identity, networks and integration 1976-2000.

"Among Alanders and Swedes on the Finnish mainland the frequency (around 20%) was comparable to Swedish values but considerably higher than among Finns". ABH secretion polymorphism in Icelanders, Aland Islanders, Finns, Finnish Lapps, Komi and Greenland Eskimos.

"The Finland Swedes: A Compensating Minority", http://web.abo.fi/fak/hf/folklore/projekt/migration/TheFinlandSwedes.pdf

Your speculations of heritage is rather ridiculous, not all Swedes in Sweden are either direct descendants of Swedes. Direct etnicity, in the ancestral form is only one aspect of etnicity, self-identification play much more bigger part. The term "Swedish-speaking finn" is mostly used by political organisations who have political goals to advance. The title of this article should be changed to "Finland-Swedes", those "Swedish-speaking finns" who are not happy with the term already have an wikipedia article of their own, and that´s "Finns", the english speakers don´t assume all finns speak finnish as native, right?Podomi (talk) 13:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I still don't understand your argument. Of course, ethnicity has a lot to do with self-identification. On the grounds, your argument is even more weak. I don't know a single Swedish-speaking Finn who would not consider him/herself as a Finnish person and would consider themselves "of Sweden", me included. Again, this is English-language Wikipedia: English's 'Finn' does not mean 'finne'. In any case, I don't understand how Finland-Swede and Swedish-speaking Finn convey a significantly different meaning in order to justify getting so irritated. As I said above, I see no problem with either term, with the possible only problem with Finland-Swede being that in English this may well imply the idea that it refers to actual rikssvenskar living in Finland.

I'd imagine an extremely high percentage of English-speakers in the world, who are not particularly familiar with the region (and even some that are), probably do overlook that Finland is a bilingual country with native Swedish-speakers as well as Finnish. From living in Sweden, I can tell you that there are even a great number of Swedes who don't realise that we exist! 94pjg (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Some observations and a possible compromise:

1. I really dislike ethnic articles in Wikipedia
2. if we are to have them, they should be as sparse and general as possible
3. an ethnic group is defined by itself - there are not any objective criteria (genetics certainly isn't one of them)
4. the Virtual Finland site uses the term "Swedish speaking Finns". The Swedish Assembly of Finland also uses this term.
5. Based on no. 4 above I would prefer to stick with the current title.
6. could a possible compromise be to call the article "Finlandssvenskar" and then follow up by including the various English language translations in the intro?Osli73 (talk) 15:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Incase people would carefully read what I say, things would take less time. I have already stated that the term "Swedish-speaking finn" is mostly used by political organizations with political goals to advance, and which are in the leash of Finnish goverment. Non-govermental organizations such as Finland-Swedish Association does not use the term and neither does Finland-Swedish Think-Thank magma. As many members of the Swedish in Finland are not comfortable with the term, including me, it should be changed to the most neutral term, which is "Finland-Swede", a term which most Swedes are comfortable. This is also the term which the Swedes of Finland are used in most of academia. I am going to write about the topic to English wikipedia administrators. Does someone have information about the particular procedures one must take? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Podomi (talk • contribs) 17:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Here´s what Miriam Webster dictionary has to say about the term "Finn"; "1: a member of a people speaking Finnish or a Finnic language, 2 a: a native or inhabitant of Finland b: one who is of Finnish descent". I already wrote the primary construction of the word "Finn" refers to speaker of finnic languages, only secondaty meaning refers to inhabitant to Finland, something which most english and speakers of other languages, including me, are unware of. All in all, why would anyone, and particularly the Swedes themselves, want to use a term "Swedish-speaking finn", when we have better, less confusing, less controversial, less politically motivated, more faithfull to the original Swedish term of finlandssvensk, and mostly, more neutral term in our disposal?Podomi (talk) 17:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The Finland-Swedish Association is the Finlandssvensk samling, a ten-year-old NGO with a membership of a few hundred persons, considered extremist by the mainstream finlandssvenskhet. The Folktinget is a voluntary organization of the finlandssvenkar, the members of which are elected on the basis of the Finnish municipal elections in municipalities with Swedish-speaking population. The election is made so that such votes that are given to Swedish-speaking candidates of each party count towards that party's list of Folktinget representatives.[3] Of course, the Folktinget is only one facet of the finlandssvenskhet but it probably represents the Swedish-speakers better than a minor private association. In Wikipedia, both organizations' views must be presented neutrally, compassionately and at length which is relative to their importance. --MPorciusCato (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

So, how about my compromise solution of using the "Finlandssvenskar" as the title and redirecting (and naming) "Swedish-speaking Finns" and "Sweden-Finn" and any other variants in the first sentence?Osli73 (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I only used Finland-Swedish association and Finland-Swedish think thank as an example of the terminology used in non-govermental organizations and organization not under the direct indfluence of the Finnish administration. By far the most common english traslation of Swedes in Finland is the term "Finland-Swedes", that´s the term mostly used in academia as well. I also point out this has nothing to do with anti-finnicism, but cultural identity which the term "Swedish-speaking" poorly reflects, as its downgrades etnicity in it all components which are, ancestry, language, culture, self-identification, social constructions and restricts it only to language, "Swedish-speaking". "Swedish-speaking" is clearly a politically motivated term. Integral aspect of Swedish identity is the sort of feel of statelessness. Finland is the fatherland, but Sweden is the ethnic homeland. There´s no need to stick with a term which aims to illegitimize this part of the identity of Finland-Swedes and serves only the purpose of politics.

"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and [b]through ethnic affinity with Sweden"[/b].

Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedish wheel of migration.Identity, networks and integration 1976-2000.

"Men notera: det är varken ofosterländskt eller antifinskt, varken mot språket eller mot den finska kulturen att försvara och värna om en gammal gränsöverskridande kustsvensk kultur som via havet förenat våra svenska kust- och skärgårdsbygder med hela den svenska östkusten från Kvarken till Roslagen!" Håkan Eklund. http://web.abo.fi/meddelanden/veckans_skribent/2005_04_eklund.sht

I am for the compromiss, but howabout if we just use neutral english-tranlation on the word finlandssvenskar. Finlands= Finland, svenskar = Swedes, that is Finland-Swedes, or Finlands Swedes.Podomi (talk) 11:04, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe we have discussed the move to "Swedish-speaking Finns" earlier, with a larger audience. Then, there was a wide consensus for a move. Now, Podomi has exhausted about everyone, so I do not think we three are in a position to make compromisses.

And Podomi, why do you talk about organizations under "direct influence of the Finnish adminstration"? (BTW, Finland has a government, the U.S. has an administration.) Folktinget is funded partly by the Finnish government, but that money is not conditional. There is a law guaranteeing the independence of the Folktinget. The SFP has been in the Finnish government for three decades. Presently, the Minister of Culture is the chairman of the SFP and in the Swedish-speaking communities, the SFP continues to enjoy a strong mandate of the Swedish-speakers. I fail to see how on earth could the Finnish government be perverting the Swedish-speaking community organs, when the state organs that could theoretically do this are controlled by the Swedish-speaking party. The most I can see is Swedish-speakers arguing rather violently about their identity. --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Folktinget and SFP and generally very poor representants of Finland-Swedish affairs, these govermental organizations are mostly concerned of keeping the majority happy and positive on the forced swedish-language instruction for finnish-speaking students. These organizations are generally very nonchalant and non-interested in preserving Swedish culture in Finland as all of their energy goes to pleasing the finns. Anyway, what was the past concensus for a move? How are article titles moved in wikipedia?Podomi (talk) 20:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

A few notes. The term 'finlandssvenskar' isn't really the same as 'Finlands svenskar'. It is indeed a more or less unique construction in the (Finland) Swedish language from the early 20th century (Pipping) and very politically motivated in its time. No equivalents of the type 'sverigesfinnar' or 'kanadassvenkar' etc. exist but one speaks of 'svenskkanadensare' or 'svenskamerikaner 'instead (the equivalent would be 'svenskfinnar' (rikssvensk) or 'svenskfinländare' (finlandssvensk)? The claim that the English term "Finland-Swedes" would unquestionably be closer to the original term or that it be inherently more neutral seems erroneous. Another erroneous claim seems to be that the term 'Finland-Swedes' would be wider spread than 'Swedish-speaking Finns'. Google, for example, returns 4420 matches for the former and 9810 for the latter. (Ironically, if anything, the term 'finlandssvensk' seems to be closest to and seems to have taken its model from it's Finnish language equivalent 'suomeNruotsalaiset'). Clarifer (talk) 09:43, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It may be that you disagree violently with the Folktinget and the Svenska folkpartiet on public policy. However, considering that Finland has free elections and that the SFP receives the clear majority of the votes in communities where Swedish-speakers dominate, you might wish to consider whether it actually enjoys public trust. The Folktinget is even more widely representative of the Swedish-speaking population, as it includes also other parties. I still posit that the opinions of SFP and the Folktinget are more notable than those of Professor Höckerstedt and Finlandssvensk samling. Whether they are more correct, I cannot say. It doesn't even matter. Here, in Wikipedia, the notability is what matters. --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Finland-Swedish scholar Leif Höckerstedt, gave a brief analysis, "Från början var det självklart att man kunde vara svensk i Finland. Då Finland blev självständigt var det politiskt befogat att använda finlandssvensk för att markera statstillhörigheten. Begreppet riksvensk användes för att hänvisa till svenskar i Sverige. Nu har det blivit opportunt att använda svensktalande eller svenskspråkig finländare eller finne (på engelska swedish-speaking finns, ej Finland-Swedes) och samtidigt antyda att det bara är frågan om språk, ett kommunikationmedel, som skiljer svensk och finne i Finland".

The Finnish referred Swedes in Finland as "Swedes" similarly as Swedes themselves. The term "finlandssvensk" really came popular only after the 1940´s, when there was need to address the coherence of the people Finland. The term Finlandssvenskar is nothing but Finlands svenskar. As said there are members of Finland-Swedish minority who are not comfortable with the term, the term Finland-Swedes has wider consensus, the question is why would we need stick on the "Swedish-speaking finn" and the term which more faitfull to the Swedish translation, more neutaral, less confusing.?Podomi (talk) 13:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The question is should it be Finland-Swedes or Finlands Swedes. Both forms are often used? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.30.140 (talk) 13:38, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The term "Swedish-speaking finn" is a grose example of political chauvinism; I fully understand the discontemt that the members of the Swedish minority feels about the term in Finland. The whole Finland-Swedish cultural (ethnic?) identity is veing stripped to language. What would happen if the Turkish goverment would start to refer kurds as Kurdish-speaking Turks, or Chinese referring Tibetians as Tibetian speaking Chinese, which they probably already do. The Germans in Russia f.e were referred as Volga-Germans, not German-speaking Russians. I think the title of the article should be seriously reconsidered without the influence of finns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.30.51 (talk) 14:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I found an interesting article of Swedes in Finland by Swedish Carl O Nordling, http://www.carlonordling.se/finlandssvenskar/intro.html

"Less well known internationally is the 6 percent minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. While we never hear of "Sami speaking Norwegians", "Hebrew speaking Palestinians" etc., one often stumbles on the term "Swedish speaking Finns" to denote a certain group of ethnic Swedes. This is a way of denying the group their ethnic identity. Admittedly, something similar is practised in Turkey, where the Kurds are called "Mountain Turks" in official quarters".

As Nordling puts it term "Swedish-speaking finn" could be viewed as violation of basic human right principles, the right to exist. Along with the usage of the "swedish-speaking finn", the whole ethnicity of Finlands Swedes is denied and restcrited to only language.

Unconventional move

Podomi moved the page to the name Finland's Swedes and created a non-history for the resulting redirect to prevent further moves. I asked for administrator action and moved the page back. However, the move of the talk page was unsuccessful, for which I apologize.

I implore all editors involved in the editing of this page to remain civil. Any moves should be made using the Request for move process, as the name of this article is contested. It is good to be bold, but we should respect the opinions of others. --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, what do want to discuss, I gave my opinion which remained unanswered for days, after that I made my unilateral decision and moved the title to its original name which was Finland-Swedes, based on three reasons. And after that you suddenly became active again.

1) The term "Swedish-speaking Finn" does not include ethnic connotation, it can be considered as an attempt to deny the ethnic aspect of Finland-Swedish minority. It´s confusing, who are Swedish-speaking Finns" are they finnish post-war immigrants to Sweden who have more or less assmilated to Sweden, or are they perhaps Finnish language teachers who have learned to speak Swedish?

2) The term "Swedish-speaking Finn" is a term which many members of the Finland-Swedish minority are not comfortable with with the reasons that Kurds are not fond with the term "Mountain Turks". We don´t refer Sami´s as Sami speaking Finns, nor the Roma minority as "Roma-speaking finns", Jews are not Hebrew speaking palestinians. Should de facto Swedish minority made exception and subjected to term which aims to deny their whole group and ethnic identity and restrict it to language. Is there something we need to compromise here? The Estonian Swedish minority is referred as Estonian Swedes hwich is fully equivalent to Finland-Swedes. I eagerly waiting to hear your commnents Marcious Cato?

3) The members who identified themselves as part of the Finland-Swedish minority are either non-comfortable with the term or remain nonchalant. Thus the alternative which is most neutral is "Finland-Swede". Unfortunately I personally see the term "Swedish-speaking finn" is no less than violation of human right principle, an attempt to deprive the ethnicity of de facto national minority. It´s should be clear that this page cannot continue with the sole title of "Swedish-speaking finns".Podomi (talk) 20:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you did not start a "Request for move" but an idle discussion on the subject. As we both exhausted all the avenues for discussion and did not find any meaningful agreement, it became tedious answering the same arguments time and again. As you see, I'm about the last person who has had the endurance to discuss with you. On the other hand, you have not had any support. There is no clear consensus for a move, so that should not be made.

There is clearly a non-consensus inside the group finlandssvenskar about the English-name for the them. However, in Wikipedia, all opinions must be covered according to the support they receive. The most notable Swedish-speaking organizations use "Swedish-speaking Finn" and do not seem to have any human rights concerns about this. The groups which use "Finland-Swede" have much less support but are very vocal on the Net. The wording seems to reflect very basic ideas about the Swedish-speaking identity. Users of Swedish-speaking Finn seem to subscribe to the Topelian model of "two languages, one people", while your side supports the Freudenthal model "two languages, two peoples". So, do you think we talk about the same group at all? Are there perhaps two different Swedish-speaking ethnicities in Finland? --MPorciusCato (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Some comments again:

1. I agree we all have to follow due process
2. After reading Podomi's arguments above I have to agree that "Swedish speaking Finns" does imply that they are not a separate ethnic group just Finns who happen to speak a different language. The Mountain Turks / Kurds examples is actually quite good.
3. How about Swedish-speaking minority in Finland as a good compromise description? The article can then go into greater detail and explain the Swedish name, the differnt English versions of the name and the general discussion about the differing opinions/arguments whether or not they are a separate ethnic group.

How about it?Osli73 (talk) 21:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

MPorciusCato, this not an issue of anti-finnish sentiments, which you try to enunciate. Finns were never restricted about speaking "Ingrians" while referring to the Ingrian minority in Russia during the 90´s, did you ever heard the term Ingrian-speaking Russian being used? We refer finns in Sweden as Sweden- Finns, but you we cannot refer Swedes in Finland as Finland-Swedes, instead we must restrict ourselves to only Swedish-language, why? Historical burdens perhaps, issue of self esteem perhaps, politics and the general attempts of Finland-Swedish political organizations to hide their Swedishness for not scaring finns, perhaps? What ever it is, Finland-Swedes should be used as an exception in the world on conventional naming customs for national minorities. This is a matter depriving the ethnicity of de facto national minority, a minority who we should not treat as exception of all conventional terminology being applied to various national minorities. As for for Osli73 compromise, I am actually surprised, I couldn´t imagine any compromise term, but atleast this is more neutral, as it seem that we have wiki members who won´t accept the word "Swede" or "Swedish" in the context of Finland-Swedes, I think Osli73´s suggestion is the most neutral we are able to conjure. Although, it lacks ethnic component as well, it does not outrule it and is more clarifying, and leaves further definitions open to reader. I am for the "Swedish-speaking minority in Finland", although I still feel the title should be retain its original name Finland-Swedes as we have Estonian Swedes as well. What do others think?

We have members here who are all very active in getting their way, and pushing titles such as "unconventional move" once they´ve got what they wanted, they disappear and all the sudden nothing is heard from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Podomi (talk • contribs) 08:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, any editor with any experience should know that labelling ethnic groups are always sensitive and potentially controversial matters. Moving established articles in that area to another name without having reached consensus is just stirring up problems. Unless it has the format of polling, with one or more clearly stated proposals, and participants clearly stating their opinion in polling-format, a general discussion that has stalled does absolutely not imply consensus. With a talk page of this length, many constructive editors lose interest in participating in discussions that don't go anywhere and instead spend their time improving articles. If you make a clear proposal you tend to attract more editors of that sort, in my experience. Tomas e (talk) 09:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, this talk page is 386+ kb, roughly eight times more than the article. I'm afraid that IMHO that's not a sign of a constructive dialogue going on. Tomas e (talk) 09:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, one thing is clear we cannot continue with Swedish-speaking Finns, has someone ever heard of "swedish-speaking finnishness" as cultural phenomenon, (finlandssvenskhet)? Just one example how politically opportunistic phony term we are operating here. The problem crearly arises when wikipedia readers should be informed about the minority in Finland who also speaks Swedish among other things, in neutral expressions, something which the Swedish-speaking finn clearly fails to convey.

"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their FINLAND-SWEDISHNESS´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic".

Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedissh wheel of migration.Podomi (talk) 09:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)