Talk:SuperDerivatives

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Co-Founder

A number of changing IPs have been trying to add information about a co-founder example[1]. There is no source for this and as far as I know it's vandalism. I've attempted to find a source, have attempted to contact the IPs adding this information, but neither has worked. -- GreenC 13:57, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Made a WP:Requests for page protection. -- GreenC 14:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This behavior continued through 2018. One IP was blocked for it. They came in with different IPs so the article was protected. Further notes about a potential connected contributor and WP:COI case is the only explanation for such long-term persistent behavior. -- GreenC 01:35, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This edit says it all. Clear COI case admitted by IP user. Some kind of disagreement over co-founder status. Typical corporate BS disrupting Wikipedia. Great for your reputation buddy all this is public record. If you can't use reliable published sources, don't include it. Period. that is how Wikipedia works. No one here cares if you were actually co-founder or not, only that you produce a public source saying so. -- GreenC 16:38, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh now it is "four Israelis" [2] - wonderful. Actually the company was founded by Karl Marx in 1853. I have sources it's true. -- GreenC 22:58, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dear GreenC, As per previous discussions concerning the SuperDerivatives topic, please see the attached link [3] to relevant legal documents in which it is declared that the firm was founded by 4 partners - Menashe Banit, Shlomo Or Dagan, Avraham Shrem and David Gershon - and not only by Mr. Gershon. Therefor we kindly ask to either open the topic for editing or rather update the topic accordingly. Appreciate your assistance on the matter. תוםדיגיטל (talk) 13:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I've looked through the documents and Gershon is always listed first (largest share holders are usually listed first). And Bloomberg has called Gershon the founder, but not Avraham Shrem who is listed in the legal document as a founding shareholder. How is that possible? The legal meaning of founder can be different from the common meaning: legally meaning the initial shareholders. This legal document is dated December 2000, when the stock structure was enshrined, but the company had a prior history, it was founded in 1999.

So normally we rely on secondary sources such as books, newspapers and magazine articles (investigative journalists), etc.. The current source in the article waterstechnology.com is secondary, and Bloomberg is secondary. The legal document is a primary source.

Where does that leave us? I don't think Wikipedia is the right place to fight this battle, we simply report on what secondary sources say, we don't divine truth, Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. You might contact Bloomberg and waterstechnology.com with these legal documents and request changes - we follow the sources not lead them, the problem is with the secondary sources not Wikipedia. You could also find a sympathetic journalist who will tell your story in more depth. If there are conflicting secondary sources we can weigh which is more credible (neither Bloomberg or waterstechnology.com are very strong). I hope this helps. If you disagree with my interpretations, we can hold an RfC (Request for Comment) and let the community examine the evidence and vote on it. -- GreenC 15:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for the clarifications. For the protocol, can we agree that it is possible, that just like in the Facebook article in Wikipedia, Mark Zuckerberg is not stated as the sole founder of the firm, so can it be the case with superderivatives? Suppose I can forward you a legal document signed by a lawyer, declaring that the firm was founded by 4 partners, will that do? Additionally, if we get Bloomberg to revise their article and state that all 4 partners are the founders of the firm, will that do? Appreciate your assistance on the matter. תוםדיגיטל (talk) 14:13, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The private legal documents are a problem for Wikipedia we generally rely on what published secondary sources say, who interpret the primary sources for us and take the responsibility for what is being reported ie. we can't cite an unpublished legal document but journalists or Bloomberg can. WP:OR and WP:V are the relevant Wikipedia policies. Absolutely about Bloomberg, it would weigh significantly on what we report. -- GreenC 17:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioned this discussion at Wikipedia:Help_desk#January_24. -- GreenC 17:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please take a look at the following link- if you scroll down it is mentioned that Menashe Banit is a one of the co-founders https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/59150-44 Mironit9 (talk) 09:12, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why I didn't think of this earlier, here is the company website "About us" page from 2001 [4]. It may look like a black window, but highlight the window (hold mouse button down and scroll) and hidden text will appear. It says "SuperDerivatives Inc. was founded by senior derivatives traders" (note the "Inc." meaning the corporate entity in 2000, supported by the legal documents). It also says Gershon (the CEO) "has been developing his own proprietary pricing and hedging models and technologies, focusing on providing extremely accurate pricing of exotic options." Gershon's role is special. He was CEO, and had more shares than anyone else (presumably as he is listed first in the legal document founders list), he is the only person given a profile in the company website About us page, and the waterstechnology source [5] says it was his idea for the concept of the company, to create "an online calculator for real-time options". He needs to be highlighted in accordance with the sources but hopefully the new wording better reflects. -- GreenC 18:05, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]