Talk:Sue (Or in a Season of Crime)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Aoba47 (talk · contribs) 02:28, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will pick this GAN up for review if that is okay with you. I will be conducting this review in a more piecemeal fashion. Feel free to respond to my comments as I post them. I love reading articles about songs so I am sure I will enjoy reading this one.

Infobox and lead

Please add ALT text to the infobox image.

Done

The WP:FUR for the infobox image is incomplete.

Of course it is. Fixed.

The infobox uses Avatar while the lead and the article use Avatar Studios so I would be consistent with one way or the other.

This is due to Template:Infobox song#Parameters. Per these you're not supposed to use the word "studios" in the infobox, hence why it just says "Avatar" – zmbro _(talk) 13:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 22:13, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think jazz-pop and post-industrial music belong in the infobox. The article says that critics had associated this song with elements of these two genres, which is not the same as directly calling this song either of these two genres.

Makes sense to me. Done.

I am confused by this part, Premiered in October 2014, the song garnered positive reviews from music critics, as I thought this song was released in November 2014?

Released as a single in November, but it was premiered on a BBC radio show in October. Similar to how movies have premieres before wide releases. – zmbro _(talk) 13:37, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the explanation. For some reason, I had missed that. I also forgot that a song's premiere does not necessarily mean it is immediately available for the public on the same day. On a somewhat related note, I vaguely remember Kylie Minogue talking about this separation between a song's premiere and its release while she was with Parlophone. It is interesting to see how music distribution has changed over time. Aoba47 (talk) 22:13, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Background

For this part, Beginning with a home demo, I would link demo for readers who may not be completely familiar with music terminology.

Added.

I have a question about this part, an experimental quartet featuring saxophonist Donny McCaslin. By "experimental", is it meant to be experimental jazz or just experimental music in general? I think further clarification here would be helpful.

Since earlier in the sentence it makes note that they were at a jazz club, I believe this implies it to be experimental jazz, but if you think it should be further clarified I can certainly do that. – zmbro _(talk) 13:57, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is understandable. I see your point, and it should be fine in its current form. Aoba47 (talk) 22:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Recording

Since avant-jazz is linked in this section, I think experimental jazz should be un-linked in the Composition section as both links redirect to the same article.

Done

For this part, Monder later told Yahoo! Music, I would put the year of the interview as I think "later" is unnecessarily vague.

Done

For this part, She initially had the players improvise over an E major chord, would it be helpful to link E major?

Done

I have a question about this part, the track's title was revealed on the music sheets. Was the title kept a secret prior to this moment or were there any issues with developing a title for this song? The "revealed" word choice in particular signals to me that this was an important moment, but I am not exactly sure why it is important.

The title was just unknown until this session, so most of the musicians involved didn't know beforehand what the song was called, if that makes sense. – zmbro _(talk) 14:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense to me. Thank you for your explanation. Aoba47 (talk) 22:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For this part, More of a guide, rather than a specific notation, would a link to the musical notation article be helpful?

Done

I believe the quote in this part, Schneider instructed the musicians to improvise "around David", could be paraphrased. This section already has several quotes, and this one does not seem particularly necessary by comparison.

Done

I hope these comments are helpful. Please let me know if you have any questions. I will come back to this tomorrow to provide further commentary. I will be focusing on the prose for each section at first and I will look through the citations at the end. Have a great weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 02:28, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Composition

For this part, Sue's motif throughout the song, I believe it should "Sue"'s since it is the song title.

Sue in this instance actually refers to the character in the song, not the song itself. So the motif being played is tied to her. – zmbro _(talk) 14:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the clarification. Apologies for misreading this part. Aoba47 (talk) 22:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question about this part, which was the title of the first song he ever recorded, with the Kon-Rads in 1963. Who are the Kon-Rads?

One of the very first bands he played with when he was first starting music. He had short stints with numerous bands between '63-'66 before he went solo in '67. – zmbro _(talk) 14:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the explanation. I see your point, but I do not think it is immediately clear in the prose, particularly for readers like myself who know very little to nothing about Bowie. It is clear that this is the first song he recorded, but I would further clarify who Kon-Rads is. Since it does not have a link or anything, I was not even certain if this was a band or something else entirely (i.e. a name for a group of producers or songwriters, etc.). Aoba47 (talk) 23:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aoba47, Clarified. – zmbro _(talk) 13:14, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For this part, The baseline played by Keberle borrows heavily from Plastic Soul's 1997 single "Brand New Heavy", I would include a descriptive phrase in front of Plastic Soul to better introduce them to the reader.

Aoba47 Unfortunately I don't know if I have one. From what I remember the biographers don't specify and Discogs doesn't really help either. Apparently, this artist only had one song and that was it. It also doesn't help there's an actual band called the Brand New Heavies. – zmbro _(talk) 13:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is interesting. It is already pretty clear from context that this is a song by some band, and since further information is not readily known, then the current wording should be fine as it is pretty easily understood. Aoba47 (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For this part, McCaslin's playing shines throughout the track, I would revise it to avoid "shines". It reads very much like praise in the current iteration. I think you are saying that the playing is focused on, but I would try to make this more objective.

Reworded. – zmbro _(talk) 14:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Release

For this part, According to O'Leary, reception was mixed, I would clarify whose reception is being referenced. Is this from critics or listeners?

I was actually confused by this as well. He doesn't clarify which, he just says "reception". – zmbro _(talk) 15:17, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

He probably just means general reception so the current wording is probably fine. Aoba47 (talk) 23:39, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am confused by the placement of this sentence, Kory Grow of Rolling Stone praised the track as "captivating", calling it a fitting addition to Bowie's catalogue., as it is right after the sentence on the song's premiere and before the ones on the song's release. I would think this sentence should be moved down to be with the other ones about reviews.

Moved.

For this part, and as a digital download on 17 November 2014, I would link digital download.

Done

I do not think "career-spanning" is necessary in this part, the career-spanning compilation album Nothing Has Changed. Is it rather redundant since most compilation albums are a collection of songs through a singer's career?

Removed

This sentence, Shot in London, the video features clips of Bowie performing in a studio alongside the orchestra, Jimmy Miller filmed during the July session., reads a little off to me, particularly the ending about Jimmy Miller.

Reworded

I would link lilm noir in this part, "a noirish assemblage with echoes of The Third Man".

Done

Blackstar version

Do we know why he re-recorded this song and "'Tis a Pity She Was a Whore" for Blackstar?

Unfortunately no. After both Pegg & O'Leary didn't have answers I pretty much knew there wouldn't be one. For me, an idea for why he would've re-recorded "'Tis" was the original was solely a home demo where he played everything so I assume he wanted to record it properly. For "Sue" I do not have a clue. But, I can't include my own opinions. – zmbro _(talk) 14:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the response and for looking into this. Aoba47 (talk) 23:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see a citation to support the art rock description in the infobox.

I searched everywhere and couldn't find a definitive genre. The only things that support art rock are for the album as a whole and not "Sue". So for the time being there won't be an infobox genre. – zmbro _(talk) 14:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing this. Aoba47 (talk) 23:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think the quote is entirely necessary in this part, Rayner praised the remake as "by far" the superior version, and I would paraphrase it.

Done

This should be the rest of my review for the prose. I will look through the citations either tomorrow or on Monday. Aoba47 (talk) 03:33, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

Citation 5 is still active so I would adjust the citation to reflect that. I have the same comment for Citation 12, Citation 13, Citation 24, and Citation 29.

Done

Citation 22 currently has a link to an image of Bowie rather than to the actual review so I would modify that. The archive link goes to the article so that does not need any correction.

Whoops. Done

Why does the Pegg citation have a direct GoogleBooks link while the O'Leary citation does not have one? I would be consistent with one way or the other.

Fixed

I am confused on why some citations include the work, publisher, and location (like Citation 6) while others only include the work (like Citation 5).

Partially due to the issues the Blackstar page had beforehand. Fixed now.

This should be all my comments about the citations. Aoba47 (talk) 10:40, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Zmbro: Thank you for the responses. Everything looks good. I am still uncertain about the Kon-Rads mention as I think further context is needed to identify who they are for unfamiliar readers. Once that has been addressed, I will be more than happy to pass this as a GA. Aoba47 (talk) 02:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing everything. I will ✓ Pass this article as a GA. Have a great rest of your day! Aoba47 (talk) 17:20, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aoba47, Thanks for reviewing! And you too! – zmbro _(talk) 17:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]