Talk:Stunning and Brave

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Please do not add mention of pop cultural references, continuity notes, trivia, or who the targets of a given episode's parody are, without accompanying such material with an inline citation of a reliable, published, secondary source. Adding such material without such sources violates Wikipedia's policies pertaining to Verifiability, No Original Research, and Synthesis.

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Social Justice Warriors

While I could see an argument where the messages of this episode apply to 'social justice warriors', it seems strange to single this group out in the discription. Also, the link just leads to criticisms from the Social Justice page rather than teach what this term means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.54.33.147 (talk) 23:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. The info in the lede intro sect is wholly unsourced. There is no accompanying mention in the article body text. Therefore, this inclusion fails several Wikipedia site policies including: WP:LEAD, WP:NOR, WP:RS, and WP:V. I agree with Mr. Granger on this issue. Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

If there's no mention or allusion to social justice in the episode, then "political correctness" would be sufficient for the Lead. Nightscream (talk) 22:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree here with Nightscream, that barring explicit mention of "social justice" in the episode, mention of "political correctness" is the best way to word it in the lede intro sect. — Cirt (talk) 00:09, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Hot Cosby

Teacher telling student not to call rape this is a clear reference to the Bill Cosby sexual assault allegations. Can we find a reference to support its inclusion?

The slang recurs in Where My Country Gone? (although Cartman doesn't use it to refer to rape, but rather, rushed sex that may be regretted) where Butters also introduces "slow Cosby" to refer to love (per Charlotte) so it being recurring seems to make it more worth mentioning. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 18:10, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

The slang term is only used once in this episode, and is not relevant to the main plot of the story. Remember, as per WP:PLOTSUMMARIZE, these plot summaries do not need to include every single minutia of trivia thrown at us. Bottom line, keep it short, sweet, and to the main point. SanAnMan (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Three of the episode review sources already linked in the article mention this segment of the episode [1] [2] [3]. It's definitely notable enough to include somewhere in the article. Maybe in a new Themes and analysis section? Mottezen (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Plot summary revision

There are three things that I wish to add to the plot summary:

• The nature of Cartman's assault on the fraternity house, as it is relevant both to the themes of the episode and how the PC fraternity react to it in the following scenes;
• The scene where Randy is initiated into the PC fraternity, as it resolves their storyline (they think he solved the 'problem' of Kyle) and for continuity, given Randy is still a member of the fraternity in future episodes of the season;
• Cartman's justification for "joking about un-PC things", as without this exposition, Kyle being annoyed that Cartman has emerged a victor doesn't make any sense.

I've already attempted to add these and been reverted by SanAnMan, so I invite comment from them and others on whether there is a consensus that my additions are acceptable. --92.21.174.27 (talk) 21:36, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I've requested a third opinion on this. Extensive talk page discussion has not taken place but SanAnMan refuses to engage so I would like to reach a consensus another way. For reference the edit I wish to make is in the history here. For further reference SanAnMan laid out their position here. --80.42.117.157 (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I haven't watched the episode so it is difficult for me to separate plot from random jokes and analysis. Therefore, I cannot pronounce myself on the first line. However, I believe the second line of this addition should be made, and the third addition needs to be reworked or excluded.

Cartman and others mount an 'un-PC' assault on the fraternity house, consisting of pregnant Mexican women and Syrian refugees In practice, this feels like an analysis and an explanation of a joke scene. It doesn't add much to the storyline, we already know the mob forms to avenge Kyle. However, if there is a scene in there which shows the mob mostly animated by anti-PC sentiment, and the "Mexican women and Syrian refugees" are noteworthy characters and not just there for the comedic effect, then there is a case to add this sentence.

Randy is initiated into the PC fraternity, who believe he was responsible for Cartman's assault that caused Kyle to "check his privilege" This is important for the plot and I don't see how this breaks policy.

...and Cartman reflects that they at least showed that "joking about un-PC things can actually be important, as it starts a dialogue" is sadly dialogue minutia. There is a case to be made that the transition to the last sentence, "Kyle concludes that the only person who seems to have emerged victorious from this recent conflict is Cartman." is very abrupt and something needs to be added here to make that concluding sentence clearer. However, this addition doesn't clarify why Kyle thinks Cartman won. Mottezen (talk) 18:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mottezen: Thanks for your comments. The un-PC mob is just a visual joke and not composed of any characters with agency - in cartoon fashion Cartman forms it out of nowhere - but I felt the fact it was deliberately un-PC to be worth mentioning. I'll concede your argument on whether or not it is a thematically un-PC attack to be irrelevant as it's just a joke. However I'm struggling to think of a way to phrase the closing 'lesson', delivered by Cartman, in a way that doesn't directly quote him. Perhaps "Cartman claims to have shown that allowing people to make un-PC jokes is important, which causes Kyle to conclude that the only person who seems to have emerged victorious from this recent conflict is Cartman." ? --80.42.117.157 (talk) 20:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

It's still not clear to me yet. Why does Kyle think Cartman is victorious? How does Cartman thinking that "allowing people to make un-PC jokes is important" makes him victorious? I thought he had become PC in the episode, wouldn't that imply that he changed his mind again and lost? Or is Cartman victorious because Kyle changed his mind following Cartman's assault? In the latter case, does Cartman's claim even matter? Mottezen (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Cartman did not become PC in this episode. Although "The boys begrudgingly admit that political correctness is not going away any time soon", Cartman is the most un-PC character of the episode and the show, and would suffer the most under this new regime, so by managing to achieve some pseudo-moral justification for occupying that role, Cartman is 'victorious'. --80.42.117.157 (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok now I understand. Honestly, I feel the whole thing is pretty trivial, and do require the analysis you just provided to fully understand. Under these circumstances, the paragraph should just end with "The boys begrudgingly conclude that political correctness is not going away any time soon." Everything following that can be left out of the plot summary.

However, this dialogue could be included as an example in new section on the Themes and analysis of the episode. You can use the sources already listed in the article to create this section. Mottezen (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to just remove the sentence, as that also solves the issue of it not making sense. Thanks for your input, I'll make those edits now. --80.42.117.157 (talk) 23:41, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh, they've already been made! Well, thanks again. --80.42.117.157 (talk) 23:44, 26 January 2021 (UTC)